5.2 Shaman changes

[SamoTray]

The point wasn't that the armor difference is awesometastic and makes us invincible titans of PvP who shrug off sword blows like so many spitballs.

It was that it's a passive damage reduction against some of our largest threats that is almost inevitably ignored by those claiming the spec suffers a survivability gap. While I've been arguing myself that we lacked cds for years now, 5.2 is pretty much resolving my concerns in that area. That doesn't mean I think Elemental will be awesometastic in PvP; it means we have other issues that are more prevalent in my mind than survivability, with the addition of SR.

I agree with you on the mitigation our armor has when it comes to physical dmg especially if we are carrying a shield, however all MDPS have a mechaninc that more or less renders armor almost useless SR will help with that alot, but we still will fail at getting any type of cast off while a mdps is on us. i know spriests and and boomies can make that same case, but their utility far exceeds ours when it comes to escaping from Mdps.

[Lavindar]

- We are concerned that fully geared Subtlety, Enhancement and Windwalker DPS are still too high. None of these are particularly easy specs to play, so it might be okay that given that players won't realistically be able to hit their theoretical maxima. Just wanted to let you know they are on our radar.

Ironic how the spec that scaled the less with gear, now has those kind of problems.

Well, the majority of our scaling issues was haste, and it changed since the start of MoP.

And, I wasn't very happy to read that, and some people still say that it's better to have any sort of feedback, At least I have a strong point to bench my warrior for my shaman again.

[Nitwit]

- We are concerned that fully geared Subtlety, Enhancement and Windwalker DPS are still too high. None of these are particularly easy specs to play, so it might be okay that given that players won't realistically be able to hit their theoretical maxima. Just wanted to let you know they are on our radar.

Ironic how the spec that scaled the less with gear, now has those kind of problems.

The thing that all of those specs have in common is very high attack speed modifiers -> out of control RPPM scaling (trinkets/legendary meta gem).

[mrinvisable2]

And if the issue is melee, people always seem to forget that melee damage is primarily physical, and Shaman have mail armor and (usually) a shield. That's enough Armor to provide an additional 20% passive damage reduction versus physical damage, compared to what any other caster gets from armor. It's not negligible.

Priest got inner Fire **
Mage Ice armor or which one it was
Druid Moonkin form
Locks will get pasive fell armor 10 % dmg recduction like they didnt have many op cd's

and enha now scales good and we will be so good in 5.2 because of legendary meta gem and trinkets

edit : moonkins just got 15 % dmg reduction taken instead of armor

[Deleted]

Regarding buffs to elemental, i wouldnt hold my breath...

Affliction warlock :
Regarded as Grossly OP by the majority of the comunity and ranked as top dps in most (if not all) simcrafts out there.

Result ? GC buffs them as compensation because of a previous nerf of a mandatory talent...


- Haunt now increases damage to the target by 30% up from 25%. This is partially in compensation because we also nerfed Sacrifice for Affliction because it was looking too mandatory.
(http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1?page=80#1591)


I don't want to apear a *ick, realy... nor do i want to seem like one of those forum trolls that QQ all day long about how blizzard does everything wrong, but class balance imho is just terrible with this guys. Sometimes i get the feeling they have no clue watsoever what they should do.

Game is fine realy, realy fun, but class balance is just atrocious and #1 reason i'm losing touch with it.

GC has pretty much single handidly killed the game with his arrogance and stupid ideas. His understanding of the game is about akin to a child with a my little pony doll.

[Deleted]

someone said that if you have SR and Astral shift you have one cd to use while stunned (SR) and when just silenced you can still use Astral shift. That works so well against rogues which open with stun and garrote and in that solo you when you cant even use any defensive.

[zenga]

Priest got inner focus

guess you meant inner fire

[Devious009]

I did, above. Ones "initial position" of being in the middle of the pack, doesnt change if everyone above you is also being buffed or changed.

Arcane Blast's damage has been reduced by 22.2% and mana cost has been increased to 1.66667% of base mana (was 1.5%).
Arcane Missile's damage has been reduced by 22.2%.
Arcane Barrage's damage has been reduced by 13.6%.
Arcane Charges now stacks up to 4 times (was 6), increases damage by 50% (was 25%), and increases mana cost by 150% (was 75%).

Mind Blast damage has been increased by 20%. (this was reverted in the latest Patch notes)
Shadowform now increases the Priest's Shadow damage by 25% (was 20%).

Grimoire of Sacrifice now increases the damage of abilities by 15% (was 25%) for Destruction Warlocks and 35% (was 50%) for Affliction Warlocks.
Haunt now increases damage to the target by 30% up from 25%. This is partially in compensation because we also nerfed Sacrifice for Affliction because it was looking too mandatory.
Partially reverted the buffs to Conflag and Immolate. They were +20%, and are now +15%. (latest blue post on PTR forums)

Boomkins are the only ones who recieved straight buffs without any nerfs and they werent giving us a run for our money on single target to begin with. So arcane nerfed to the ground, shadow priests got a 5% increase who again were doing similar single target to us if not worse, Affliction got a 15% nerf to GoSc and a small buff to haunt, cant even say if thats a gain for them or they just broke even. Destruction also got some buffs reverted and some stayed I assume to compensate for the GoSc nerf too and cant say for sure how big of a buff it is.

So basiclly We got straight buffs, Outlier caster dps got nerfed to the ground or broke even, and the ones who are doing comparable dps to us or less got almost the same amount of buffs we got if not less, and you claim this will keep us still behind ... ok

SR is another terrible -30% damage ability, whereas all other caster dps have already a -90% dmg reduction/or a "2nd life" talent.

SR is not terrible, thats your own opinion about the spell, and no not all casters have -90% damage reduction thats completely false, Shadow priests are the only ones. Again dont compare abilities seperately and think of the whole toolkit.

Like any other caster dps had before 5.2. Except for maybe shadow priests, but they still have a -90% one.

And now we are on par with every other caster dps, shadow priests have 1 damage reduction CD and we have two, shadow priests also cant cast while in dispersion but we can.

Game mechanic change, it'll affect everyone area of effect spells. And this whole thread is about proofs that we'll still lack behind other specs in 5.2. Read Endus/Binks posts.

Yes and it will affect our AoE so theoretically thats a buff for shaman aoe as well, I did read Endus and Binks posts, Endus did some napkin math to give a rough estimate and never claimed it is set in stone, Bink refrained from providing any numbers because he stated he will do everything when the patch goes live and no more changes will be made.

Never said its "bad", just NOT enought to compete.

SR is another terrible -30% damage ability, whereas all other caster dps have already a -90% dmg reduction/or a "2nd life" talent.

The funny thing is you said that and then right after go on and say that you never said its bad its just not enough to compete, contradicting much ?

Probably it doesnt work like this in your friends and family guild. But some people have to compete for their raid slots. We could argue like this back in TBC, where classes were unique, and mages/hunters didnt have blood lust.... or every buff/debuff avaible to them, just by changing pets.

So you are in a guild shooting for World top 50 ? I've been in my guild for 3 years and not once was I benched even with all the ups and downs elemental had before because guess what Im also competing for a raid slot. Taking a shot at me wont prove your point.

See, you've to improve your reading skills.

The CL change/buff was unnecessary. It improved our ability to cleave staff (which we were already good at), but a change/buff to EQ would improve our AoE ability (which we are bad at).

And you need to get off your high horse, the CL buff is a buff regardless if you think is unnecessary or not, we have a stronger cleave now which will give us a niche and can help our AoE further when you combine it with Magma totem and EQ .. yes EQ isnt used much in current content and might have its uses in ToT but if it doesnt we still have an exteremly strong CL and not so strong Magma totem

[Kralljin]

we have a stronger cleave now which will give us a niche

What niche?

This Buff is for cleave not nearly as big as for AoE.

We may draw even with multidotting specs on 2 target cleave at best.

yes EQ isnt used much in current content and might have its uses in ToT

From what i've seen from the testings i participated (Any Heroic boss execpt Primordius) i see hardly a reason to have EQ on your action bars, because:

Not enough targets for EQ (Horridon;Ji-Kun)
Targets don't live long enough (Ji-Kun)
Targets are moving (Tortos; Horridon)

EQ may pull ahead on some 10+ Target situation but that's hardly featured in ToT, maybe Ra-Den has some heavy AoE involved but that's very unlikely.

[shell]

a small buff to haunt, cant even say if thats a gain for them or they just broke even.

Looks like a pretty good rundown of the changes other casters received. But I think this one is a bigger deal than a small buff. Initially I read it as a 5% buff to haunt, but its a 5% buff to the buff that haunt provides. So a buff to a buff, much like elemental focus; the haunt buff increases spell damage taken and has nice uptime so its pretty meaningful. To the point that from what I'm reading on their forums, affliction is thrilled and the other 2 specs are complaining that they're being forced to play affliction, which they thought for a second that they wouldn't have to.

At any rate, to your point I've seen at least 3 world top ele shamans around here say that what they've seen from testing, we're looking pretty good. But raid size may have something to do with that, I don't know, I've heard ele performs better in 25's than 10's.

[zenga]

TotemSpot ‏@totemspot
Yes, that's correct, we have an interview with @Ghostcrawler coming soon (TM). There may be a few Shaman questions in there too...

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
@totemspot And let me just plug that there were a lot of fun questions.

Can't wait ...

[looorg]

Just to check so I have not missed anything; the resto spec has just been totally ignored as per usual right? No changes, no buffs, no nerfs, nothing new to learn.
No changes to talk of really except lowering the cd of spiritwalkers grace. I guess the resto pve salvation is in the tier set bonus or something.

[shell]

TotemSpot ‏@totemspot
Yes, that's correct, we have an interview with @Ghostcrawler coming soon (TM). There may be a few Shaman questions in there too...

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
@totemspot And let me just plug that there were a lot of fun questions.

Can't wait ...

I'm looking forward to it as well. I just hope that people don't pin hopes of future class changes on this, it may not be that type of interview. GC tweeting 'a lot of fun questions' suggests that its not that type.

[zenga]

I'm looking forward to it as well. I just hope that people don't pin hopes of future class changes on this, it may not be that type of interview. GC tweeting 'a lot of fun questions' suggests that its not that type.

I never understood why people care about future class changes to begin with. For me it really is important what happens now with the spec and how it plays, not really what might gonna get changed in 1 year from now. Either way, I'm most interested in hearing how they see elemental shaman, both in pve and pvp. As in what role it should fulfil, what they think the strength and weaknesses are. Because it's been my impression for a long time that there is a pretty big difference in how the community sees ca experiences the spec, and how the devs see it.

[Griffeth]

We are concerned about the upcomming changes to shaman and what is going to happen in 5.2

[EruptorNZ]

TotemSpot ‏@totemspot
Yes, that's correct, we have an interview with @Ghostcrawler coming soon (TM). There may be a few Shaman questions in there too...

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
@totemspot And let me just plug that there were a lot of fun questions.

Can't wait ...

Hopefully Bink and Purge managed to get some good questions answered by GC, looking forward to it.

[takolin]

Just to check so I have not missed anything; the resto spec has just been totally ignored as per usual right? No changes, no buffs, no nerfs, nothing new to learn.
No changes to talk of really except lowering the cd of spiritwalkers grace. I guess the resto pve salvation is in the tier set bonus or something.

It was a buff to spiritwalk which is a enh only ability . AG and conductuivity got a buff. I suspect HTT will germain king though . EM buff might be nice for resto but if you're latency isn't bad, you might want to shoot for the hst haste breakpoint. The meta and rppm trinkets will like the extra haste as well.

[Deleted]

SR is not terrible, thats your own opinion about the spell, and no not all casters have -90% damage reduction thats completely false, Shadow priests are the only ones. Again dont compare abilities seperately and think of the whole toolkit.

If you want to correct someone at least dont just cut out one part of his post, he said "-90% dmg reduction/or a "2nd life" talent"
Yes only priest has that and they cant cast while we can, but will anyone even let us cast? and 30% wont reduce that much damage from warr/feral/dk etc etc jumping on you with all cds if there is noone to cc them for you or give you BoP while dispersion and other spells can make you survive alone.

To the second life spells or these which make you avoid damage completely,hunter have deterance, mage ice block, warlock dark bargain/demonic circle (+30% hp heal from talents and HS), balance have that blink/vanish talent, 30% instant heal and maybe some more things (sorry didnt play my druid past 85 lvl and mostly as feral anyway).
SR is nice and helpful tool and surely do some difference, its just that in the pvp world filled with cd stacking and burst damage it might not do that much compared to the safe mechanics other casters have and if we cant even use it while silenced.

It would be nice if we didnt have to depend on mechanics from other people to save us + dps would at least have to think about timing and using burst cds on us then just "pop it all and rush him, elem cant avoid it alone anyway"

[woopytywoop]

It would be nice if we didnt have to depend on mechanics from other people to save us + dps would at least have to think about timing and using burst cds on us then just "pop it all and rush him, elem cant avoid it alone anyway"

Exactly, it would also make us a lot less comp depended.

And this is actually how i also define classes as good or bad in pvp.
If a spec can run with anything and do well, it's OP.
If a spec only has 1-2 comps in which it does well, it's UP.

However, that's only 3v3, I think a spec can be a bit UP there if it's really good in RBG (eg lazorchickens).

Every spec deserves 1 aspect of competitive pvp in which it's good (ofc not pure specs like arcane since they can respec without the need to grind gear).

[Devious009]

If you want to correct someone at least dont just cut out one part of his post, he said "-90% dmg reduction/or a "2nd life" talent"
Yes only priest has that and they cant cast while we can, but will anyone even let us cast? and 30% wont reduce that much damage from warr/feral/dk etc etc jumping on you with all cds if there is noone to cc them for you or give you BoP while dispersion and other spells can make you survive alone.

To the second life spells or these which make you avoid damage completely,hunter have deterance, mage ice block, warlock dark bargain/demonic circle (+30% hp heal from talents and HS), balance have that blink/vanish talent, 30% instant heal and maybe some more things (sorry didnt play my druid past 85 lvl and mostly as feral anyway).
SR is nice and helpful tool and surely do some difference, its just that in the pvp world filled with cd stacking and burst damage it might not do that much compared to the safe mechanics other casters have and if we cant even use it while silenced.

It would be nice if we didnt have to depend on mechanics from other people to save us + dps would at least have to think about timing and using burst cds on us then just "pop it all and rush him, elem cant avoid it alone anyway"

Go back to my post 1 page back and check again, I quoted his whole sentence I didnt cut out anything. What do you mean will anyone let us cast anything? no one will let you cast anything in a PvP environment if they can do something about it, you have to create that window to cast something yourself.
30% wont be enough ? Why ? because you said so ? I can also go on and claim that it will be enough, does that mean it will ? no, thats your own opinion and Blizzard seems to disagree. I'll tell you what I told the other poster, look at your toolkit as a whole and not SR alone.

The 2nd life part, all those classes compared to what we have, ok lets see Hunters have Deterence and ... right nothing, Mages have Ice Block and .. Evocation glyph ? good for them we can heal, Warlock's dark bargin is not exactly a 2nd life, you are still taking the damage after the effect wears off and you cant do anything about it unless you take an HS, I could also argue that the new Nature's Guardian is a shaman's 2nd life since it "gives" you more Hp and delays you from that hit that would've otherwise killed you. Balance's Blink/ Vanish is called displacer beast and can hardly be called a 2nd life, its an escape mechanism, We also have instant heal in Ancestral Swiftness (if you choose to spec it) and have 50% increased healing with clearcasting up.

It would be nice if people stopped looking at SR alone and started looking at what it adds to our whole toolkit.