5.2 Shaman changes

[mrinvisable2]

they nerfed sac buffed haunt , they buffed arcane then nerfed then buffed then nerfed and buffed again all spells for 2 %

and look at trinkets and what benefit it has to aff

[Socialhealer]

its the usual joke, buff ele by a tiny tiny amount, give everyone else huge changes.

if GC thinks 5.2 should go live as it is and leave it like this until 5.3, he's more retarded than we first thought.

[Deleted]

Sorry but this is bullshit. I doubt Affli and Arcane will be the top specs in 5.2 - Affliction got GoSac nerfed to the ground and is so much closer to other Warlock's specs. The same case is with Arcane. So try again.

I said its ONLY SIM, which could mean something but it might not. Its not like other talents are THAT bad for Affli (ofc Sacrifice was top). About Arcane, nobody can say anything until we see it since every small buff/nerf to spell scaling changing that spec dps a lot.

For Shaman we have warning signals like not-so-awesome trinkets, legendary meta which adds hardly some DPS upgrade or not much fancy 4p. :P

[shell]

its the usual joke, buff ele by a tiny tiny amount, give everyone else huge changes.

That's not what I'm worried about. From reading some theorycrafting from other posters here and elsewhere it seems that looking at our numbers in a vacuum, our dps is fine. By 'in a vacuum' I mean leaving out set bonuses and the meta-gem. Unfortunately, when those 2 things are included, THAT's where we fall way behind. In other words, for once, it actually looks like our dps is fine...but the gains we're getting, from set bonuses and meta-gem, relative to other spec appears to be majorly lacking.

Unfortunately, when stuff like this gets brought up we're told it's too soon to know. Understandable, because numbers get changed often, but by the time we do know for sure....it's too late for the devs to make any changes.

[Zues]

In two days it'll hit live and people will start posting logs of their fights. Just wait two days and we'll see how we're looking on the first couple of fights

[zenga]

I said its ONLY SIM, which could mean something but it might not. Its not like other talents are THAT bad for Affli (ofc Sacrifice was top). About Arcane, nobody can say anything until we see it since every small buff/nerf to spell scaling changing that spec dps a lot.

For Shaman we have warning signals like not-so-awesome trinkets, legendary meta which adds hardly some DPS upgrade or not much fancy 4p. :P

Another warning signal for myself is that with specs I've never raided with, I'm able to pull higher dps vs the target dummy than with my ele shaman which I main since wotlk. That is reading up the guide on the respective wow class forums, make some weak auras to track stuff and setup my keybinds to what seems logical to me. That is of course no scientific evidence whatsoever, but it's damn well depressing. And a clear warning signal for myself.

[Laurean]

Sorry but this is bullshit. I doubt Affli and Arcane will be the top specs in 5.2 - Affliction got GoSac nerfed to the ground and is so much closer to other Warlock's specs.

Please check what GoSac actually does and then check the typical dmg distribution of affli locks. MG's dot component is unaffected by GoSac, GoSac only effects MG's dmg itself. That was minuscule to begin with.
Also, a 13.3% nerf is not "to the ground".

[Aviators]

Sorry but this is bullshit. I doubt Affli and Arcane will be the top specs in 5.2 - Affliction got GoSac nerfed to the ground and is so much closer to other Warlock's specs. The same case is with Arcane. So try again.

Call BS too, according to this enh shaman sim much higher
http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_mop_794.html

[Endus]

Folks, the sims are still VERY much partially complete and imperfectly tested. That's why simulationcraft doesn't have a 5.2 version ready for download, or t15 data on their front page. Simulationcraft isn't a monolithic tool where everything is at the same stage of development; each class and spec is often being worked on by different people, at different paces.

Preliminary sims need to be taken with much larger grains of salt than even release-stage sims, which have plenty of issues of their own. I'm not saying Elemental will be fine and to ignore the sims (I think we'll be a bit low still), but the sims aren't "proof".

[Raiju]

How about we just completely disregard simcraft sims that don't have a dedicated guy behind the spec in question (or behind each spec in question) that can prove he knows his shit. Otherwise they will continue to be as worthless to others as they clearly have been to enhance since they spiked in popularity in cata (late wrath?)

Quite a few classes have their own much more reliable sims, is FD and SC still continued? I know Enhsim is no longer maintained by the guy who did a good job with it (still not 100% but it got a lot closer than anything else), not sure if it's even maintained.

[rogas]

I tell you now those sims are probably accurate. When i saw mop beta sims 6 months ago, elemental was at the bottom. Everbody yelled 'those sims aren't accurate', they do not reflex ingame numbers.

well tbh ... yes they do

[Raiju]

hitting bottom and bottom isn't exactly difficult to sim. But on both the OP side and hte UP side, getting people to dismiss sims that aren't good enough quality also means when someone damning comes up on a sim YOU CAN USE IT as evidence.

[Laurean]

You don't need sims to predict where elemental's place will be in 5.2.
We have enough data from 5.0/5.1.
Look over the changes of all speccs.
Look at elemental's scaling, we are the only casters who use red gems. But our gain from int isn't stronger than the other classes'.
Look at the new meta gem, or read the blue post. Just wait for "We are aware of the issue, but we think it will be fine".
Look at Unerring Vision of Lei Shen, or read the blue post.

I can't predict numbers that way, but it gives a good picture where we will find ourselves compared to other speccs.

_____

I would love a new passive like: If your LvB or CL cast time is below 1 second, their dmg is increased by the portion the cast time is below one second...adding to that the Chaos Bolt mechanic to LvB, that would solve a lot of scaling issues and put our dps in regions where at least I think it should be, no multidotting, good cleave, good single target, good meaning between 60th and 80th percentile.

[Endus]

I tell you now those sims are probably accurate. When i saw mop beta sims 6 months ago, elemental was at the bottom. Everbody yelled 'those sims aren't accurate', they do not reflex ingame numbers.

well tbh ... yes they do

You're ignoring the greater reality for a single incident.

The 5.1 sims have Shadow WAY at the bottom. Ret is also down there, both below Elemental. In practice, even on single-target fights that are as close to a Patchwerk sim as we can get, they both do significantly better in practice than the sims show.

Sims are a tool. They don't reflect reality perfectly.

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 01:47 PM ----------

hitting bottom and bottom isn't exactly difficult to sim. But on both the OP side and hte UP side, getting people to dismiss sims that aren't good enough quality also means when someone damning comes up on a sim YOU CAN USE IT as evidence.

It's not about "dismissing" sims. I don't disagree with Elemental's placement on them. I'm saying you need to take them with a grain of salt, since there's a lot of other stuff going on, particularly with PTR sims like this.

It's evidence. It's not proof. People are saying "look at these sims, we're screwed." That's acting as if it's proof, when it's not. It's indicative there might be a problem, but you should be backing that up with other evidence, too.

[Protoman]

Call BS too, according to this enh shaman sim much higher
http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_mop_794.html

How come they spec'd Anc Swiftness and Primal Elem? Is EM, AS or EoE better DPS for Enh? And what about the T6 talents, I thought ULF was the better talent....the haste helps w/ more LS procs on WF doesn't it? Or has the PE buff really made it that much better?

[shell]

Call BS too, according to this enh shaman sim much higher
http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_mop_794.html

There's a difference in numbers because the fight styles are different, the one you used is patchwerk, the other is helter skelter. The patchwerk that includes elemental shows them at 173,726 versus the helter skelter model at 143,880.

[Laurean]

The 5.1 sims have Shadow WAY at the bottom. Ret is also down there, both below Elemental. In practice, even on single-target fights that are as close to a Patchwerk sim as we can get, they both do significantly better in practice than the sims show.

They do better? Maybe, maybe not. Looking at Blade Lord or Feng or even Zorlok, which is kinda single target for melees they are at the bottom, shadow somewhere in the center on Zorlok
Significantly better? No, not by any meaning signifacant has in statistics.

[takolin]

How come they spec'd Anc Swiftness and Primal Elem? Is EM, AS or EoE better DPS for Enh? And what about the T6 talents, I thought ULF was the better talent....the haste helps w/ more LS procs on WF doesn't it? Or has the PE buff really made it that much better?

There are some reasons.

1) rPPM trinkets and meta gem prefer the T4 talents that add more haste and increase the value of haste as well
2) AS and EM both got buffed (10% meleehaste and a CD reduction)
3) UF got nerfed
4) PE and EB got buffed
5) The T14 4set bonus increases the value of UF which you lost.

[Wowforlife79]

I am Enh main spec. But i was wondering if there are any fights in the new raid that will "require" me to go ele? Id prefer to stay Enh, but i dont mind a fight or 2 to go ele and have a little pew pew fun haha.

[Raiju]

It's not about "dismissing" sims. I don't disagree with Elemental's placement on them. I'm saying you need to take them with a grain of salt, since there's a lot of other stuff going on, particularly with PTR sims like this.

It's evidence. It's not proof. People are saying "look at these sims, we're screwed." That's acting as if it's proof, when it's not. It's indicative there might be a problem, but you should be backing that up with other evidence, too.

Just because the placement may agree at times (plenty of times I've agreed with where they placed enhance approx) with how you feel, doesn't make the sim worth anything. The sims being fundamentally flawed because they are designed by people who don't have any real expertise or understanding of the spec they are creating the sim for (not saying this IS the same for elemental - I have no idea who their simdev is, but definitely used to be for enhance), just means that they're about as much evidence as a psychic predicting your girlfriend breaking up with you on a monday would be.

It'll be right sometimes (or in the analogy for some people), doesn't mean the psychic's predictions can be used as evidence.

Upping quality of sims is extremely important because it helps the people who are less mathy (but may still be willing to do the brunt work of testing mechanics) actually have something worthwhile to contribute to. If a simulationcraft dev is pure shit, then it should be brought to simcrafts attention and then people using it after. If the dev doesn't want to budge then more power too him, but it's then deceitful.

TL;DR independent sims work better, then a site like simcraft could collate the results using agreed formatting of different fight durations, iterations, and 'types'.