Blade Flurry should not be nerfed that much.

[JhanZ]

That "plan" would just make all the other specs obsolete and combat the king of PvE in all enviroments.

I doubt it. In my personal opinion rogues should be up there at #1 or #2 with Warlocks because they are pures. Combat would be King on single target, sure, but I believe they'd make Assassination not lag too far behind, and make it the best for AOE fights, by a good margin. Then round off Subtletly as the "hard to master" spec with the potential for very good DPS if played masterfully. That's how I'd envision it.

[Elrandir]

Got buffed single target, a nice new lvl 90 talent and a deserved nerf for BF which was way too strong on cleave fights. Sounds about right to me.

[Deleted]

Why people who dont know/play combat rogues post in this section ?

Blade flurry has always been the combat rogue's special way of play.

Take that away and its like taking away wings to paladins.

No it's not always been. It got changed an addon ago and since then, combat was totally dominating because of this.

That's the reason why combat dominated PVE wise.

25% is still very much. It's more likely they change it to 25% on two subsequent targets.

It's been way over time they fixed that totally imbalanced skill. It's not like we don't get compensated by single target dps buffs.

And if cou still need some proof of how it works:

that's overall dps:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...10100000000000

On most fights, combat rogues will deal more dps with 5.2.

The blade fury change will still make us (combatrgoues) a very good cleave class, but not miles ahead of the rest.

there might be even a chance they might now buff FOK a little to compensate, if our dps is somehat low (or make us BF hit for 3 targets).

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 08:35 PM ----------

I doubt it. In my personal opinion rogues should be up there at #1 or #2 with Warlocks because they are pures. Combat would be King on single target, sure, but I believe they'd make Assassination not lag too far behind, and make it the best for AOE fights, by a good margin. Then round off Subtletly as the "hard to master" spec with the potential for very good DPS if played masterfully. That's how I'd envision it.

Rogues are the best dpsers right now. The rogue class problem is surely not "too less dps".

They basically buffed combat dps for most fights, nerfed the toally overpowered BF cleave. I think it's a buff for most combat rogues.

From now on, they have time to really balance assa and combat against each other. Sub will never be the real PVE specc, accept it.

[Verain]

Got buffed single target, a nice new lvl 90 talent and a deserved nerf for BF which was way too strong on cleave fights. Sounds about right to me.

Shame you don't understand what you are talking about, or it wouldn't.

[Deleted]

Shame you don't understand what you are talking about, or it wouldn't.

No. It's the usual whining of totally overpowered speccs that get brought back in line. Rogues are top dds, they will stay top DDs. Just not by 100% ahead on some fights.

You will see them still at the top on cleave fights, since it's still more cleave damage than everyone else besides fire mages and perhaps warriors.

Everyone who has a realistic pont will have to give in that it was totally unbalanced. NExt tier would for sure have again a cleave fight, so top raids would be forced again to go with 10 combat rogues because they deal double the dps like ret palas on those fights.

Whether it will be 25 or 35 or 40% in the end, we will have to see.

There are only two possibilites:

When it can be perma up, it needs to do low damage, so 25% is probably a good value.

When it is a on use cd, they might be able to leave it at 100%, but say only for 20 seconds every 2 minutes.

[Verain]

They basically buffed combat dps for most fights, nerfed the toally overpowered BF cleave. I think it's a buff for most combat rogues.

No, this is a massive nerf.

Understand that 4% extra damage on a spec that is undertuned single target is a fix, not a buff. Most rogues correctly go another spec for single target fights.

Blade flurry is the best two target conal strike right now. Post nerf, it won't even be a thing. The best advice for a combat rogue postpatch will be "go play another spec".

[Deleted]

No, this is a massive nerf.

Understand that 4% extra damage on a spec that is undertuned single target is a fix, not a buff. Most rogues correctly go another spec for single target fights.

Blade flurry is the best two target conal strike right now. Post nerf, it won't even be a thing. The best advice for a combat rogue postpatch will be "go play another spec".

So buff my single target dps, but please please don'T nerf my totally overpowered Cleave?

That's ridiculous. Empirical data shows combat rogues up to 100% ahead on other speccs on fights like Stome Guards.

Very good single target dps + overpowered cleave is just plainout overpowered.

And combats single target dps is okay. It will now be top. The top rogues already switched speccs from fight to fight because assa was overpowered on signle target fights, combat was absurdely overpowered on cleave fights. Just made you collect two weapon sets, possibly different gear for both speccs. Now you will actually have a choice between Assa and Combat.
I never played Sub, so i won't talk about it. For me, those things are really nice changes for rogues, especially combat rogues.

You just whine about not doing double the dps that other speccs do.

[tylenol]

The word "overpowered" is like the word "epic", it's used for everything and needs to die

[HalseyUS]

This will probably go live, This change is intended for the people (Like myself) that are playing Assassination or Sub that dont want to have to gear / reforge / gem differently for every fight where combat is a better due to Blade Fury, I welcome this change

*edit*

Combat's single target DPS is still up to par with Assassination, So people that want to play Combat are still going to be competitive on all fights, they will just not have "as much" cleave damage as before

[Deleted]

I don't care as long as they buff single target damage and our AoE, cleaving permanently with reduced energy just makes the spec even slower paced to play which is boring.

I think they should turn BF into a cooldown that hits all targets instead of two, with 100% damage

[Verain]

So buff my single target dps, but please please don'T nerf my totally overpowered Cleave?

Yes, that is my opinion. FIX the low side single target, which needs to come up.

I've long been wary of a blade flurry nerf. I've always expected it to come as a reduction of reflected damage, but remember that blade flurry already has a cost- you do a bit less single target damage with it active, in order to cleave a fraction of total damage to a second target. Given that it's usually more beneficial to single target than multitarget (stone guard being one of the VERY FEW exceptions), this means that the "payoff" for going into two target mode has to pay off. On live, it does by a lot. With a nerf of this magnitude, it's unclear as to whether it will be worth pressing this button on stone dogs. Leaving the button off means more yellow damage on your real target, more white damage on your real target (yes, because you transition and spend more time in high insight) and of course more poison damage on your real target. The cost will be 25% of sinister, evis, revealing, mastery, and auto hits. We'll need to sim this to see whether the button has any use on even stone dogs- a fight with essentially 100% uptime. Most organic situations throughout the game (here's a stream of adds) only get partial blade flurry uptime, because enemies walk into and out of the tiny cone constantly, and the yellow hit cleave guys normally have an advantage there (a warrior, for instance, or a frost knight), because pausing for half a second to let the enemies be positioned correctly results in more benefit. You'll NEVER use blade flurry in those situations any more.

So a combat rogue on stone dogs after the nerf may or may not press blade flurry- and in any event, he's likely going to do more damage total by switching to a different spec entirely.

And combats single target dps is okay. It will now be top.

I don't see a 4% increase in single target taking combat's single target to "the top".

Now you will actually have a choice between Assa and Combat.

No, it takes away that choice. Right now you can respec and reforge for the fight to help the guild. Post nerf, you will lose this power. Remember, we don't have a tank or heal spec, and blade flurry was actually our raid utility.

You just whine about not doing double the dps that other speccs do.

And you just whine about things you don't have a goddamned clue about.

[HalseyUS]

No, it takes away that choice. Right now you can respec and reforge for the fight to help the guild. Post nerf, you will lose this power. Remember, we don't have a tank or heal spec, and blade flurry was actually our raid utility.

This actually adds a choice, It lets you decide which spec YOU want to play, I hate being assassination and having to go spend 300g+ every night to respec / reglyph / regem / reforge just so I can cleave Garalon, This makes it so I get to play what I love and not be Too far behind the still best AoE spec for rogues


Also, Helping the guild by switching yes, Gives you a nice little boost, But you don't take into the account that some people don't like to play combat just because of the play style, some will disagree but I know for sure other people out there feel the same

I keep reading more and more and Keep editing to post what I want to say about the topic, Some people on this forum just don't get that Blizzard is trying to balance out the class / spec damage, they have said this numerous times, Yes, Blade fury just took a huge blow, BUT you will still be ahead for cleaving fights, its just that you wont be so far ahead that it becomes stupid that you aren't that spec for said fight, It just boils down to people understanding that Blizzard doesn't like people Having to play a certain spec to be competitive anymore, I knew this was going to happen, I know a lot of you knew it was going to happen because when you see Combat rogues on Garalon pulling up to 100k DPS more than any other class / spec, You know somethings wrong

[Verain]

Eh, I don't think I totally buy that. I get that you won't feel the pressure any more. But honestly, if the fight matters, sit the rogue, bring a hybrid melee. Hell, make the rogue reroll warrior, whose second place (soon to be first by a mile) cleave + sweeping strikes is already aces (and they don't give up burst actual aoe to do it either, as that's not tied to their spec in the same way it is for rogues). This makes us little kid warriors.

I also don't know if you noticed this, but PLENTY of fights reward warriors for going into zerker stance, pushing their single target decently above rogues. That can be ok, as long as there are fights where you really want to bring the rogue- and not just for a trivial boost. Blade Flurry is a big part of that small set of reasons, and this deletes it. There will be no naturally occurring fight situation that benefits rogues.

[Javanface]

This actually adds a choice, It lets you decide which spec YOU want to play, I hate being assassination and having to go spend 300g+ every night to respec / reglyph / regem / reforge just so I can cleave Garalon, This makes it so I get to play what I love and not be Too far behind the still best AoE spec for rogues

You say that, but without your cleave, what use are you now on Garalon or Stone Guards over another melee that can cleave properly?

If blade flurry is still competitive you'll still want to be combat for cleave fights. If it isn't, then yes it adds choice - what spec would you like to be benched with?

[HalseyUS]

You say that, but without your cleave, what use are you now on Garalon or Stone Guards over another melee that can cleave properly?

If blade flurry is still competitive you'll still want to be combat for cleave fights. If it isn't, then yes it adds choice - what spec would you like to be benched with?

I'll be playing assassination! And yes it still will be better, but it won't be so much better that I will have to go Combat just for the cleaves, Which in my mind is the reason for the change so people don't have to swap for one or two fights in the tier

[Airwaves]

no more rogues on 2+ target fight great :> why not just tell any rogue who's not playing pvp to unsub since they are going to loose their place anyway :>

Blizz said the other day that there is more RET pallies in the game then there are rogues of all three specs. I am pretty sure it will not be 75% in the end. It should be made base line but. So to not force combat on every mutti target fight. That is the problem blizz has with it atm.

I do love the port in and out of melee range move but. Hopefully it goes live. If it works anything like the gw2 thief sword move it will be amazing in pve and pvp.

[Deleted]

that's overall dps:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...10100000000000

Wow wow stop, is this an accurate version of SimCraft?

[Demeia]

No, it takes away that choice. Right now you can respec and reforge for the fight to help the guild. Post nerf, you will lose this power. Remember, we don't have a tank or heal spec, and blade flurry was actually our raid utility.

This means a lot to me. I agree completely with this. If you want to buff combat's single target, do it separately and lower the BF reflected damage. By all means redesign the talent--it is extremely clunky--and they should strongly consider giving at least mutilate a cleave (making sub the top single target if you can finagle the spec's difficulty).

[Deleted]

Yes, that is my opinion. FIX the low side single target, which needs to come up.

So what is there to discuss?

You simply ask to be overpowered. I say Rogues should be strongest Melee/Dd, but only by a few percent (on average 3-5% to the rest of the melee dds).

Well. Nothing to talk here.

We could talk about it being perhaps 40% or two additional targets for 30% or make it a short term bursty cleave.

All classes have to be in kind of a balance.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 11:43 PM ----------

Wow wow stop, is this an accurate version of SimCraft?

No. It's real life data from world of logs.

The screen it shows is taken over all heroic mode bosses on average. So say one class deals always 100k dps, so average is 100k. Another spec deals 100k dps on 4 fights and 200k on the fifth fight, the average is 120k. What youz actually see, is, that combat seems has by far the highest average dps.

You see that on average, combat looks to be ridicilous overpowered. The problem is that it comes from a few fights where blade fury is totally out of control.

So buffing single target dps, nerfing cleave will bring combat back in line. And no, it won't be weak, it won't be middle of the pack. It will be top DPS.

---------- Post added 2012-12-22 at 11:46 PM ----------

This means a lot to me. I agree completely with this. If you want to buff combat's single target, do it separately and lower the BF reflected damage. By all means redesign the talent--it is extremely clunky--and they should strongly consider giving at least mutilate a cleave (making sub the top single target if you can finagle the spec's difficulty).

That's the problem. There HAS to be a cap for cleave damage when there are two adds perma cleaveable up.

[Koji2k11]

most of the ppl in here dont even play rogue as main and try to shit talk ppl BF nerf is not justified combat is going to die you will see