Netanyahu vows to continue illegal settlement activity

[Deleted]

He's not too good at math. Less than 100 years is not 3000 years.

[Trotheus]

So Palestinians treat their women like slaves? Don't live in a democracy? War on terror? War of conquest you mean. Israel tries to spread democracy does it? How by reacting so badly to democratic elections that it blockades and terrorises when it doesn't like the results. You really don't know much about the situation bar what you hear on fox news do you.

These are the "people" you're defending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

[soulcrusher]

These are the "people" you're defending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

Wow up jumps a random YouTube link. Let's ignore documented historical fact and place our faith in YouTube and fox news. You're basically saying one side is like you and can therefore oppress the other side because they're not like you. Thats a fairly racist and ill informed view Yes you have no real understanding of either side.

[Trotheus]

Wow up jumps a random YouTube link. Let's ignore documented historical fact and place our faith in YouTube and fox news.

You obviously didn't click the link.

You're basically saying one side is like you and can therefore oppress the other side because they're not like you. Thats a fairly racist and ill informed view Yes you have no real understanding of either side.

And now you're just making things up

If you really support Palestine, you should not speak. You're only hurting your cause with your crazed, emotive, illogical attacks on other posters. From a rational perspective, one can see the parallels between you and Palestinians, making it easy to understand why you support them.

[Deleted]

These are the "people" you're defending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

Well deserved if you asked me. The USA has unconditionally supported Israel, Al Qaeda and all these other djihadist have been the only ones striking back. Your terrorists are their freedom fighters.

[Mavett]

Wow up jumps a random YouTube link. Let's ignore documented historical fact and place our faith in YouTube and fox news. You're basically saying one side is like you and can therefore oppress the other side because they're not like you. Thats a fairly racist and ill informed view Yes you have no real understanding of either side.

haha, soulcrusher the fella who fills up this subforum with his anti-israel threads bashing a person with his typical "you're fox newz product@#@!#!", while using RT and Guardian as sources for his threads , how can you have any understanding on the issue with your constant threads full of bias is beyond me.

and the best part is "documented historical facts" coming from you i would take it with a grain of salt.

[Deleted]

These are the "people" you're defending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZvbYJMvU

So some random uneducated people, a few people that may be fanatical cheered on WTC destruction.

Well here's the other side of the coin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUfaFG39O8Q
The Israeli ARMY, a LEGITIMATE part of Israel, attacking palestinians. So not some random people cheering on some bullshit, but the actual legitimate army of Israel.
Plus, I don't get how your "oh, some fanatics cheering on WTC plane diving" has any relevance. People cheer on Stalin still in some parts of the world. If I went to a place where people cheered on Stalin in a town in Russia does that make the whole Russia Stalin-friendly again suddenly?
Or are you going to tell me the media will never exaggerate actual facts to make them look more gruesome for the public to watch them? I can still remember, a few months ago our news were broadcasting sand storms at the sea... only the cameraman failed and while the reporter said how horrible the wind is blowing and how sand is hitting him in the face because of the storm... the cameraman moved the camera to the left, and we could see there was some dude hitting the sand sending it towards the reporter... and that's how news is made.

Oh, and about media coverage:

[Trotheus]

So some random uneducated people, a few people that may be fanatical cheered on WTC destruction.

Well here's the other side of the coin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUfaFG39O8Q
The Israeli ARMY, a LEGITIMATE part of Israel, attacking palestinians. So not some random people cheering on some bullshit, but the actual legitimate army of Israel.
Plus, I don't get how your "oh, some fanatics cheering on WTC plane diving" has any relevance. People cheer on Stalin still in some parts of the world. If I went to a place where people cheered on Stalin in a town in Russia does that make the whole Russia Stalin-friendly again suddenly?
Or are you going to tell me the media will never exaggerate actual facts to make them look more gruesome for the public to watch them? I can still remember, a few months ago our news were broadcasting sand storms at the sea... only the cameraman failed and while the reporter said how horrible the wind is blowing and how sand is hitting him in the face because of the storm... the cameraman moved the camera to the left, and we could see there was some dude hitting the sand sending it towards the reporter... and that's how news is made.

Oh, and about media coverage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDHNNtyjfts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTIs_8X3q3U

Of course both sides are complicit in the violence.

I believe in equality for all people, so I don't like double standards. It's frustrating to hear people bash Israel for its role in the violence while excusing, or even supporting, Palestine for its own role.

I also believe that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, and that regardless of history, violence is never the answer to problems. So it's horrifying for me to hear people say that Jews or Americans deserve to be slaughtered as Guilu said above. I've never seen anyone endorse violence against Palestinians, in contrast.

It seems clear to me that the root cause of the conflict is Islam. Everywhere in the world that it exists, there is conflict, whether in Europe, the Phillippines, Burma, etc. And then of course there is the extreme violence between its different sects. The difference between its doctrine of an eye for an eye and Christianity's of turning the other cheek is readily apparent in the development of Muslim nations vs. that of western ones. It's a bullish religion of conquest which refuses to yield an inch, when the best path forward for our species is clearly one of tolerance, understanding and compromise. I am, of course, speaking of the religion as a whole and not about individual Muslims.

I don't believe for a second that the existence of Israel is the problem; it's Israel's success that its neighbors hate it for. In a half century it has done what Islam failed to do for over 13 centuries - bring civility and development to the middle east.

PS - It's cute how the clip I posted showing hundreds of Palestinians, including women and children, celebrating 9/11 means nothing, but your claim to have seen a cameraman throwing sand at a reporter means all news is fake

Well deserved if you asked me. The USA has unconditionally supported Israel, Al Qaeda and all these other djihadist have been the only ones striking back. Your terrorists are their freedom fighters.

Innocent civilians deserved to be murdered because they were born on a certain patch of land? That's a really horrible thing to say, I hope you don't mean it. Perhaps MMO-Champion should contact the authorities in regards to your post, you sound like you could be dangerous.

Infracted: Please refrain from discussing or bashing religions

[Tokru]

It seems clear to me that the root cause of the conflict is Islam. Everywhere in the world that it exists, there is conflict, whether in Europe, the Phillippines, Burma, etc. And then of course there is the extreme violence between its different sects. The difference between its doctrine of an eye for an eye and Christianity's of turning the other cheek is readily apparent in the development of Muslim nations vs. that of western ones. It's a bullish religion of conquest which refuses to yield an inch, when the best path forward for our species is clearly one of tolerance, understanding and compromise. I am, of course, speaking of the religion as a whole and not about individual Muslims.

It's not only Islam. It's the whole concept of religion. It's just that Islam is multiple hundred years younger than the other two and not yet fully grown out of it's violent phase.

[Deleted]

So it's horrifying for me to hear people say that Jews or Americans deserve to be slaughtered as Guilu said above. I've never seen anyone endorse violence against Palestinians, in contrast.

When did I say that people deserved to be killed ? I was responding to the video you posted, of Palestinians celebrating 9/11. Yeah, 9/11 was tragic and a terrible blow to the West, but these people have been living the way they do because of the way the US has acted for the past half-century. It's a war for them. They're just on the other side of it. I'm not shocked that they'd be celebrating what they consider to be a victory. C'est de bonne guerre.

It seems clear to me that the root cause of the conflict is Islam. Everywhere in the world that it exists, there is conflict, whether in Europe, the Phillippines, Burma, etc. And then of course there is the extreme violence between its different sects. The difference between its doctrine of an eye for an eye and Christianity's of turning the other cheek is readily apparent in the development of Muslim nations vs. that of western ones. It's a bullish religion of conquest which refuses to yield an inch, when the best path forward for our species is clearly one of tolerance, understanding and compromise. I am, of course, speaking of the religion as a whole and not about individual Muslims.

Tolerance, understanding and compromise. You need to behave that way towards Islam as well. Islam is not a religion of conflict, violence and domination. It's just that, like any other religions, there are people to twist it beyond belief and beyond reason. And these people get heard, because of the way the middle-east has been for a while. Secular dictators trying to keep islam down, "infidel" westerners fighting against a perceived muslim threat, and Israel oppressing Palestinians. They get heard because they're the ones fighting. Who else fights for these people ? Who cares for them ?
All religions have been used to justify horrors. Christianity is far, far from exempt; it would actually be far far worse.

I don't believe for a second that the existence of Israel is the problem; it's Israel's success that its neighbors hate it for. In a half century it has done what Islam failed to do for over 13 centuries - bring civility and development to the middle east.

Check your history man. Check your history.

[Trotheus]

Guilu, I take heart in the honesty of your response and the indication that you don't actually believe innocent people should be murdered. I was a New York resident on 9/11 who had no particular feelings on the Israel/Palestine conflict other than a vague wish for peace, so it is heartening to believe that you don't actually feel I should be murdered, even though you indicated that I should have been. I only wish you would express this sentiment more articulately so as to reduce misunderstanding. FYI, as I voted for Gore and Kerry, and spoke/speak against Bush, I did everything I could as an American to promote peace rather than war and so it's extremely disheartening when I hear people tell me I should be murdered for being American... In fact, in my experience, European discrimination against Americans is no less harsh than discrimination based on skin color or religion, which Europeans hypocritically oppose - but that's another thread.

What I take issue with is your apparent double standard - you espouse a very common view that Palestinian violence is justified because they have been wronged, while Israeli violence is unquestionably wrong, with little explanation... I am neutral and do not side with Israel or Palestine, but instead with peace... But it seems that my feelings on this conflict are being overcome by the emotive antisemitic nonsense propagandized by the popular culture machine of Europe and liberal America. You wouldn't be the first Frenchman to embarassingly succumb to this - John Galliano did the same quite famously just a few years ago.

I would urge you to read and learn about the subject of religon rather than regurgitate the customary politically correct response that Islam is no worse than other religions. From an honest and unbiased viewpoint, it is quite clearly worse - it preaches hatred as a control method rather than Xtianity's guilt, for one thing. Guilt is self-hatred, and while it's terrible on the individual level, it's better for society than hatred. Islam insists on a marriage of religion and government (Sharia law) while western history proves that a separation of the two is ideal, and it preaches victimhood to its followers. Victimhood is a double edged sword - you get what you want when you claim you're 'offended', but this is reliant on people viewing you as a powerless victim rather than a well-adjusted culture. These are all quite tangible points about Islam being worse than other ideologies, and if you disagree, I only ask that you explain why rather than continuing with your childish disparagement of views which aren't aligned with your own.

The French have a stereotype of arrogance, and you are doing nothing to quell this.

[Deleted]

What I take issue with is your apparent double standard - you espouse a very common view that Palestinian violence is justified because they have been wronged, while Israeli violence is unquestionably wrong, with little explanation... I am neutral and do not side with Israel or Palestine, but instead with peace... But it seems that my feelings on this conflict are being overcome by the emotive antisemitic nonsense propagandized by the popular culture machine of Europe and liberal America.

Nothing justifies the murder of anybody. We agree on this. But the position we see in the media probably stems from the fact that Israel is the dominant power here. We always root for the underdog; the israeli government has most of the cards in hands, and they're probably the only actor in this conflict that is not some kind of terrorist organization. Yet they do things that are no better :/
Probably the worst is the way the media plays it : When rockets fly over the informal borders, the israeli somehow have no right to retaliate ?

I would urge you to read and learn about the subject of religon rather than regurgitate the customary politically correct response that Islam is no worse than other religions. From an honest and unbiased viewpoint, it is quite clearly worse - it preaches hatred as a control method rather than Xtianity's guilt, for one thing. Guilt is self-hatred, and while it's terrible on the individual level, it's better for society than hatred. Islam insists on a marriage of religion and government (Sharia law) while western history proves that a separation of the two is ideal, and it preaches victimhood to its followers. Victimhood is a double edged sword - you get what you want when you claim you're 'offended', but this is reliant on people viewing you as a powerless victim rather than a well-adjusted culture. These are all quite tangible points about Islam being worse than other ideologies, and if you disagree, I only ask that you explain why rather than continuing with your childish disparagement of views which aren't aligned with your own.

Living with other muslims on a daily basis ? It's all about the interpretation and how seriously you take every piece of the book. Seems more of a cultural than a religious thing. Christianity is still seen as advocating obscurantism - because some take every piece of the book litterally. Basically what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what the book preaches; all that matters is what people make of it. It doesn't matter if the Quran says that this is the best calendar, this is the best law, this is the best prophet, because people don't have to care, and the world they grow up in shapes them way more than any book ever will.

The French have a stereotype of arrogance, and you are doing nothing to quell this.

Yeah well, what are you gonna do ? I doubt it's a stereotype, we're so self-righteous when it comes to democracy, equality, tolerance, blablabla.. but if we look at France itself, we're not really any better. Anticlericalism is still around, but people think it's securalism. Let's not even mention or immigration issues..

[tombstoner139]

Expanding Israeli settlements = human shield. We must protect our people.... that we... put in harms way... and hope that no one notices.

[N-7]

I don't believe for a second that the existence of Israel is the problem; it's Israel's success that its neighbors hate it for. In a half century it has done what Islam failed to do for over 13 centuries - bring civility and development to the middle east.

Just FYI when Europe had it's dark ages, the Middle East was the supreme power of the world (at that time) and was the main hub for science and technology just like America was (is?) during the last two centuries. There are still some medical tools in use NOW that were invented during that time especially for surgery and the foundation of Mathematics was laid during that period too. The numbers on your keyboard? They are Arabic numbers. Standardization of Algebra? yeah a Muslim Arab did that too. First human to try to fly in a scientific way? An Arab too.

You saying that Middle Easterners failed to bring civility and development to the region shows lack of basic history lessons.

[Deleted]

Expanding Israeli settlements = human shield. We must protect our people.... that we... put in harms way... and hope that no one notices.

more like make a provocative move, hope for a violent Palestine reaction, use that for a excuse for take more land repeat....

[Priestiality]

Of course there is a difference:
Both mean the same, but one is politically correct, and the other isn't.

Seeing the Islamic propaganda at work, sometimes makes me ashamed of being an Arab and not being braindead.

---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 02:03 PM ----------



Oh yay, the only democratic place in the whole middle east is a stain on the east-west relations!
Of course, because nothing is easier than dealing with dictators, sultans, sheiks and ayatollahs. Who needs an elected prime minister when you can just talk with an extremist religious leader instead?

Orly? "Zionism may be defined as, "An international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel."[1] Zionism is also "a political movement among Jews which holds that the Jews are a nation, and as such need to establish a national homeland", and as a religious movement within Orthodox Judaism which encourages Jews to establish a sovereign commonwealth in the Land of Israel that is governed by Halakha (Jewish law), and as "a movement to support the development and defense of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there." Therefore, a possible definition for anti-Zionism is opposition to these objectives; and people, organizations or governments that oppose these objectives can in some sense be described as anti-Zionist.[original research?] "Progressive Jewish Thought and the New Anti-Semitism," an essay published by the American Jewish Committee, concludes that, with the maturing of Israel since its founding in 1948, the term anti-Zionism in scholarly work is often used to mean advocating the elimination of the State of Israel.[2] Opposition to Israel as a Jewish state is anti-Zionism or what can be called Post-Zionism.[3]" Source

"Though the general definition of antisemitism is hostility or prejudice against Jews, and, according to Olaf Blaschke, become an 'umbrella term for negative stereotypes about Jews,'[15] a number of authorities have developed more formal definitions.

Holocaust scholar and City University of New York professor Helen Fein defines it as "a persisting latent structure of hostile beliefs towards Jews as a collective manifested in individuals as attitudes, and in culture as myth, ideology, folklore and imagery, and in actions – social or legal discrimination, political mobilization against the Jews, and collective or state violence – which results in and/or is designed to distance, displace, or destroy Jews as Jews."

Elaborating on Fein's definition, Dietz Bering of the University of Cologne writes that, to antisemites, "Jews are not only partially but totally bad by nature, that is, their bad traits are incorrigible. Because of this bad nature: (1) Jews have to be seen not as individuals but as a collective. (2) Jews remain essentially alien in the surrounding societies. (3) Jews bring disaster on their 'host societies' or on the whole world, they are doing it secretly, therefore the antisemites feel obliged to unmask the conspiratorial, bad Jewish character."[16]

For Sonja Weinberg, as distinct from economic and religious anti-Judaism, antisemitism in its modern form shows conceptual innovation, a resort to 'science' to defend itself, new functional forms and organisational differences. It was anti-liberal, racialist and nationalist. It promoted the myth that Jews conspired to 'judaise' the world; it served to consolidate social identity; it channeled dissatisfactions among victims of the capitalist system; and it was used as a conservative cultural code to fight emancipation and liberalism.[17]
Antisemitic caricature by C.Léandre (France, 1898) showing Rothschild with the world in his hands

Bernard Lewis defines antisemitism as a special case of prejudice, hatred, or persecution directed against people who are in some way different from the rest. According to Lewis, antisemitism is marked by two distinct features: Jews are judged according to a standard different from that applied to others, and they are accused of "cosmic evil." Thus, "it is perfectly possible to hate and even to persecute Jews without necessarily being anti-Semitic" unless this hatred or persecution displays one of the two features specific to antisemitism.[18]

There have been a number of efforts by international and governmental bodies to define antisemitism formally. The U.S. Department of State defines antisemitism in its 2005 Report on Global Anti-Semitism as "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[3]

In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), then an agency of the European Union, developed a more detailed working definition, which states: "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." It adds "such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity." It provides contemporary examples of antisemitism, which include: promoting the harming of Jews in the name of an ideology or religion; promoting negative stereotypes of Jews; holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of an individual Jewish person or group; denying the Holocaust or accusing Jews or Israel of exaggerating it; and accusing Jews of dual loyalty or a greater allegiance to Israel than their own country. It also lists ways in which attacking Israel could be antisemitic, and states that denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor, can be a manifestation of antisemitism – as can applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation, or holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.[19]" Source

Using the interwebz is hard, yo. As you see, while one could reasonably argue all anti-semites are anti-zionist, not all anti-zionist are anti-semites. Do I think we should wipe out all Jews? Absolutely not. Do I think Israel as it is now should exist? Absolutely not. They offer conditional olive branches of "peace" with one hand, while raping and stealing with the other. They somehow claim to have full control over anything Palestine does, as evidenced by them calling the UN vote a "unilateral action". Apparently "unilateral action" is defined differently in Israel than the rest of the world. And just to clarify, this all supposedly stems from Palestine refusing to recognize Israel as a JEWISH state. Maybe because Christians and Muslims live there as well? And you say the Palestinians are fanatical?



---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 07:13 AM ----------

Just FYI when Europe had it's dark ages, the Middle East was the supreme power of the world (at that time) and was the main hub for science and technology just like America was (is?) during the last two centuries. There are still some medical tools in use NOW that were invented during that time especially for surgery and the foundation of Mathematics was laid during that period too. The numbers on your keyboard? They are Arabic numbers. Standardization of Algebra? yeah a Muslim Arab did that too. First human to try to fly in a scientific way? An Arab too.

You saying that Middle Easterners failed to bring civility and development to the region shows lack of basic history lessons.

The irony of course is that the same people spreading the "lack of civilization" myth are directly descended from the people that ransacked all that beautiful art and science in favor of "GOD SAID SO!"

[Stir]

Guilu, I take heart in the honesty of your response and the indication that you don't actually believe innocent people should be murdered. I was a New York resident on 9/11 who had no particular feelings on the Israel/Palestine conflict other than a vague wish for peace, so it is heartening to believe that you don't actually feel I should be murdered, even though you indicated that I should have been. I only wish you would express this sentiment more articulately so as to reduce misunderstanding. FYI, as I voted for Gore and Kerry, and spoke/speak against Bush, I did everything I could as an American to promote peace rather than war and so it's extremely disheartening when I hear people tell me I should be murdered for being American... In fact, in my experience, European discrimination against Americans is no less harsh than discrimination based on skin color or religion, which Europeans hypocritically oppose - but that's another thread.

Nowhere did they say you should have been killed. They said that, as a Palestinian, cheering a successful attack on the US is no more than normal. Did you cheer when Iraq was conquered? Did you ever stop to think how many civilians died due to US fire?
To them, the US is much, much worse than some random extremist terrorist group. The worst Al'Qaeda has ever done (in their eyes) is blow up to sky-scrapers and the pentagon; three important buildings of the force that is responsible for their continued lives of misery.
Sure; when you're on the other end of the stick, things really hurt. True. But that goes both ways.

What I take issue with is your apparent double standard - you espouse a very common view that Palestinian violence is justified because they have been wronged, while Israeli violence is unquestionably wrong, with little explanation... I am neutral and do not side with Israel or Palestine, but instead with peace... But it seems that my feelings on this conflict are being overcome by the emotive antisemitic nonsense propagandized by the popular culture machine of Europe and liberal America. You wouldn't be the first Frenchman to embarassingly succumb to this - John Galliano did the same quite famously just a few years ago.

It's the view of the oppressed (and constantly attacked) versus the oppressor. Now; in the past, all the countries around Israel were against it's conception... Yet it was still created. Then a short war happened, Israel was successful in remaining in place, and from there on, it has enacted a reign of expanding borders, and cutting off the locals from necessary supplies, as well as killing them outright. As a response, militia organizations were born in Gaza, and supported (where possible) by Egypt and others through smuggling, but they could never do anything more meaningful than terrorism... Because a loose militia is not a strong military. Add to that that Israel is claimed by Zionists on the basis of WWII-guilt and religion (the LORD promised us this land! US! The CHOSEN PEOPLE!) and you've got a boat-load of anti-Israelianism waiting to happen. The somewhat less educated (who still feel there's something wrong with claims of divine rights) are more prone to fall into anti-semitism, and none of us want that, because racism never ends well. However, zionists have never failed to make themselves (and all other jews) incredibly unpopular. It's the whole 'we're the chosen people, and therefore better than you, because YHWH loves us more' thing... Which is a shame, because non-Zionist jews are often rather nice people.

I would urge you to read and learn about the subject of religon rather than regurgitate the customary politically correct response that Islam is no worse than other religions. From an honest and unbiased viewpoint, it is quite clearly worse - it preaches hatred as a control method rather than Xtianity's guilt, for one thing. Guilt is self-hatred, and while it's terrible on the individual level, it's better for society than hatred. Islam insists on a marriage of religion and government (Sharia law) while western history proves that a separation of the two is ideal, and it preaches victimhood to its followers. Victimhood is a double edged sword - you get what you want when you claim you're 'offended', but this is reliant on people viewing you as a powerless victim rather than a well-adjusted culture. These are all quite tangible points about Islam being worse than other ideologies, and if you disagree, I only ask that you explain why rather than continuing with your childish disparagement of views which aren't aligned with your own.

First off:
The Qur'aan teaches Jihad as the War against Evil in Oneself. The inner dialogue, and the battle against your lusts and desires. That's what Islam teaches, and it's the reason for a pretty large schism. You see, most Muslims (I've met) can't agree that terrorists, or any perpetrator of violence, can be a true Muslim, because a Muslim, in their eyes, needs to fight the temptation to fight.
However, all that amounts to a 'No True Scotsman' argument.
Fact is, indeed, that the Qur'aan also preaches hatred and violence towards others. But, and I cannot stress this enough, the Qur'aan has NOTHING on the Old Testament, where that very same deity condones, and even rewards, treachery and deceit as a tactic to get what you want (and even rewards it when used against your next of kin), where that god suggests the gravest of war crimes, where the priests suggest that stoning a person to death is a pretty good penalty for getting stung by a bug, where rape, slavery and much more are openly applauded.
The fact that Christians, by and large, are less violent than Muslims isn't due to the holy books... It's due to the fact that Christians have bigger armies.
As for Sharia Law, that would unite religion and government, and our 'Christian enlightenment:'
In Judaism, a King is chosen, from the Line of David, by YHWH. This king rules in the name of YHWH, and makes sure people follow the rules of the deities. It is, in fact, a theocratic design.
Christianity does/did pretty much the same trick, only the King is Jesus of Nazareth. Always. In Poland, it's even official: Jesus is the king of Poland. However, due to Jesus' 'absence,' the Pope is in charge. He, and he alone, may speak for Jesus, and his word is Law upon the lands of Christianity. Little known fact: That's why Guy Fawkes blew up the house of parliament: Because he wanted the Pope in charge of the UK.
Most European nations still have houses of royalty that are, officially, appointed by YHWH (and therefore, indisputable). Royalty in itself is an expression of Christianity's political strangle-hold.
The fact that it no longer works because the people rebelled against it is actually a failing of the religion. The religion itself preaches FOR theocracy. Not, as you suggest, against it.
Oh, and if you think the Americas are not theocratic because it's in the constitution: 'In God we Trust, So Help Me God,' and other such official phrases (including the Oath of Office) are all evidence that it is still a theocratic system regardless of its constitution.
Your statement of 'victimhood' here is also wrong. Nothing in Islam teaches victimhood. Quite the opposite, actually. It teaches to defend oneself and one's ideologies (though, a point in fairness, it goes on to say that one should also defend and respect the ideologies of others... And then there's a random 'smite the unbeliever'-thing tossed in somewhere, followed by a passage of how all religions are beautiful in and of themselves...). If needed, but only if needed, the Muslim is allowed to defend themselves through violence. That's hardly playing the victim role. Here's a victim role stance for you:
'Turn the other cheek, don't resist arrest, get nailed to a cross, and die.' That's a very passive aggressive way to get your point across, isn't it?

In summary, Islam is no worse than other ideologies, as you proclaim it to be. One could say it is equally bad, however. Please understand that the points you made are incredibly biased, as well as pretty much dead wrong.

The French have a stereotype of arrogance, and you are doing nothing to quell this.

See; you admit to your strong prejudice. So there's little reason to pay your responses much heed after this little line. Try to prove me wrong, though... I generally like being proven wrong.

[Deleted]

It's curious how an issue which should be able to catch my sympathy and interest always dissolves into matters of race on these forums - which causes me to lose all interest in the discussion.

[Dezerte]

Just FYI when Europe had it's dark ages, the Middle East was the supreme power of the world (at that time) and was the main hub for science and technology just like America was (is?) during the last two centuries. There are still some medical tools in use NOW that were invented during that time especially for surgery and the foundation of Mathematics was laid during that period too. The numbers on your keyboard? They are Arabic numbers. Standardization of Algebra? yeah a Muslim Arab did that too. First human to try to fly in a scientific way? An Arab too.

You saying that Middle Easterners failed to bring civility and development to the region shows lack of basic history lessons.

Worth to note, while there is no agreement on what caused the decline of the "Golden Age"; the Christian crusade started at this time.

[Deleted]

Funny how people get slammed with infractions stating Israel should be transformed into a parking lot, but blind hate for Palestine goes untouched. Moderation bias at its best.