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  1. #201
    Scarab Lord Hraklea's Avatar
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    And I'm really curious, in what "artistic" regard did WoW harm the genre? By improving pretty much every aspect of it?
    WoW entrenched the idea of investing time to get a prize. You have to level your character, your jobs, your mounts, your gear, and THEN you start raiding. If you didn't like raiding with you character, you have to invest time again. When you finally get your character, you have to farm gold for consumable, farm badges for better gear, reputation for new recipes, and THEN go for harder raids. Skill never matters as much as the time you have to spent logged on. WoW entrenched the idea that you deserve something just for being logged on the game. That's insanely harmful.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Hraklea View Post
    WoW entrenched the idea of investing time to get a prize. You have to level your character, your jobs, your mounts, your gear, and THEN you start raiding. If you didn't like raiding with you character, you have to invest time again. When you finally get your character, you have to farm gold for consumable, farm badges for better gear, reputation for new recipes, and THEN go for harder raids. Skill never matters as much as the time you have to spent logged on. WoW entrenched the idea that you deserve something just for being logged on the game. That's insanely harmful.
    Yeah? To whom?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you actually just said what you don't like about WoW, which is a valid point, but that doesn't say a thing about how it's "bad for the genre".

    And you may disagree, but in my opinion, WoW takes more skill than EQ2 and DAoC used to, while being less grindy. Anything in those two games was far more unreasonably time-consuming than anything in WoW.

    Also, I don't really get this "skill" talk. I can't think of any really "skill" based MMORPG right now. And I don't see what's wrong with that. The genre is still based on RPG principles, after all. Juggling stats, collecting items, maxing out attributes.

  3. #203
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    The point of making games was always as much about making money as it is now.

    And I'm really curious, in what "artistic" regard did WoW harm the genre? By improving pretty much every aspect of it? Give me a break. Blizzard made questing more fun, improved the standards for visuals and storytelling in MMOs, took out a great deal of the pointless grind, proved that you can have a super-fluid and fast-paced gameplay and framerate and classes that are a blast to play in an MMO, set new standards for complex and original encounter design, and what not. What of all that was exactly bad for the genre?

    And why is everything that makes a game a "good MMO" supposed to be something bad from an "artistic" standpoint? How does that make sense at all?

    WoW didn't "cause problems". That's a nonsensical way of looking at things. It's not Blizzards fault that other companies try to make big buck with shitty games.
    When games were first developed the idea of making massive amounts of money weren't exactly there. Pong was just there for giggles really. Then it caught on from there.
    WoW questing is for the majority, as dull as it still is. Once every 30 you get an interesting one like the one in MoP's whole weird adventure thing with the 4 stooges. (I forgot the name. =\).
    However the majority is the same, it's just the biased view thinks killing monkeys and getting their banana is somehow different than other games, than it is in this.
    I'll be starting a massive linking just to show how it's not changed.
    Kill, fetch, gather, go to a person (I didn't link these cause they're just menial task of talking to one person).
    Jade Forest: http://www.wowhead.com/quests=12.5785

    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29619
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29766
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29756
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29722
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29629
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29628
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31707
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29827
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29900
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29560
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29630
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31775
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29753
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30135
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29904
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29892
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29967
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29747
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29878
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29926
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31261
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29906
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29880
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29552
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31701
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29578
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30158
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29717
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30137
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30157
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29728
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31771
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29762
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31167
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31767
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31768
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29767
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29815
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=31742
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29559
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29938
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29937
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29920
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29968
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29626
    Don't kill me chaud for not using wowdb.
    Yeah I'm going to stop with one zone.

    Performance of the game is losing in my opinion. I can't even run Minecraft in the background without lagging. I can do it in TERA with a much higher requirement at max setting and not lag, yet in WoW I just lose all the frames.

    Not having diversity is a problem with the gaming community. It's quite frankly... boring.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    WoW questing is for the majority, as dull as it still is.
    Bold assumption.

    I'll be starting a massive linking just to show how it's not changed.
    Kill, fetch, gather, go to a person (I didn't link these cause they're just menial task of talking to one person).

    Yeah I'm going to stop with one zone.

    Not having diversity is a problem with the gaming community. It's quite frankly... boring.
    But you're not making a real point. The claim was that WoW did bad things to the genre. And as repetitive and dull WoW might be - it's still a huge improvement compared to how insanely repetitive MMOs were before.

  5. #205
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Bold assumption.

    But you're not making a real point. The claim was that WoW did bad things to the genre. And as repetitive and dull WoW might be - it's still a huge improvement compared to how insanely repetitive MMOs were before.
    All I'm pointing out is how the questing hasn't changed and is still the same no matter how you look at it.
    I never said anything about the being good or bad about the genre other than there's no diversity.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    All I'm pointing out is how the questing hasn't changed and is still the same no matter how you look at it.
    I never said anything about the being good or bad about the genre other than there's no diversity.
    Another theory while we're at it: there's nothing wrong with questing - people are playing too much.
    Why is it so popular to complain about "kill X, bring Y" quests? What do people actually expect? And why doesn't anyone complain about having to shoot hundreds and thousands of enemies in an FPS? OR having to drive all these courses in racing games.

    Somewhat off topic right now, but what the heck. You get my point. I think MMO is one of the genres people tend to get very absorbed in, because of the continuity and vastness of the ingame worlds and the carrot/stick-principles. So, while nobody expects any other game or genre to reinvent itself every 20 minutes, it continues to be a persistent point of criticism in MMOs. People invest literally hundreds and hundreds of days in one game and then they complain about how it's repetitive and boring - one of the countless amusing fallacies gamers are prone to.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Performance of the game is losing in my opinion. I can't even run Minecraft in the background without lagging. I can do it in TERA with a much higher requirement at max setting and not lag, yet in WoW I just lose all the frames.
    The performance is still unmatched by any game asuming you use no addons at all. As soon as you start using DX10, DX11, SSAO, AA and Shadows the game starts running much much worse for little improvement in graphics. Yes with all graphics at the highest, with addons and in a 25 man raid not a single gaming computer in the world is powerful enough to fraps WoW at 60 fps but once you turn everything off its a whole different picture.

  8. #208
    No. WoW has nothing to do with major stupidity of game devs, who think they can make fresh game with a million of bugs, totally lacking alpha and beta testing stages, and just sell these packs of shit to community. Some (or, maybe, I should say - all) devs even have nerves to sell early access to their buggy, unoptimised games, that are nothing at all compared to old but still best MMO ever.
    And, for the love of God, can someone tell me - what is the reason to make a super almost photo realistic graphics for game, in which swords don't even leave bloody marks on models of other players and mobs when you hit'em? I'm still dreaming about a game with really realistic melee combat, not some censored oh-so-scared-of-blood kiddy crap.

  9. #209
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    The performance is still unmatched by any game asuming you use no addons at all. As soon as you start using DX10, DX11, SSAO, AA and Shadows the game starts running much much worse for little improvement in graphics. Yes with all graphics at the highest, with addons and in a 25 man raid not a single gaming computer in the world is powerful enough to fraps WoW at 60 fps but once you turn everything off its a whole different picture.
    I never played with addons. Everything is maxed.
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Another theory while we're at it: there's nothing wrong with questing - people are playing too much.
    Why is it so popular to complain about "kill X, bring Y" quests? What do people actually expect? And why doesn't anyone complain about having to shoot hundreds and thousands of enemies in an FPS? OR having to drive all these courses in racing games.
    I don't complain. It's when people make assertion that the quests are different and more fun than other games is where it annoys me.
    one of the countless amusing fallacies gamers are prone to.
    Don't claim a fallacy with another fallacy.
    False comparison, red herring, and generalization.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    The performance is still unmatched by any game asuming you use no addons at all. As soon as you start using DX10, DX11, SSAO, AA and Shadows the game starts running much much worse for little improvement in graphics. Yes with all graphics at the highest, with addons and in a 25 man raid not a single gaming computer in the world is powerful enough to fraps WoW at 60 fps but once you turn everything off its a whole different picture.
    Erm...DX10/11, SSAO, AA, and shadows aren't addons...they're basic graphical elements within the game. Addons, I agree, remove those from the equation if you're looking for base stats.

    As for you claim...it's pretty easy to get a rig powerful enough to run on max settings while recording video, in a raid, with tons of addons running and maintain high fps. WoW isn't a super graphics intensive game.

    WoW is easily the best optimized MMO from a Western developer. Like, head and shoulders above everyone else.

    That being said, Korean MMO's still blow Western MMO's out of the water in performance. As Remilia mentioned, Tera is one of the best examples of this. It looks/runs better than it has any right to on pretty much every setup. The fidelity achieved in that game far surpasses what almost any other game run on a comparable rig can attain.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Don't claim a fallacy with another fallacy.
    False comparison, red herring, and generalization.
    There's absolutely nothing invalid or fishy about that claim.

  12. #212
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    There's absolutely nothing invalid or fishy about that claim.
    Comparison across genre is a false comparison.
    Red herring is introducing irrelevant information to the topic at hand to mislead, such as why people don't complain about other games.
    Generalization is exactly what it sounds like.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Comparison across genre is a false comparison.
    Nonsense. It might be however that you didn't get the point. The comparison makes perfect sense. You're criticizing recurring core mechanics of the genre, as if they weren't existant and accepted in others.

    Red herring is introducing irrelevant information to the topic at hand such as why people don't complain about other games.
    You might want to read up on what a "red herring" is. I even announced the little excursion in the somewhat off topic, but nontheless relevant field. And even if we take it strictly, it still doesn't apply to the red herring idiom at all. In fact, the cross reference only makes the whole point more stringent - and points out what is mislead and invalid about your complaint.

    Generalization is exactly what it sounds like.
    You mean something like "WoW questing is for the majority, as dull as it still is"?

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Erm...DX10/11, SSAO, AA, and shadows aren't addons...they're basic graphical elements within the game. Addons, I agree, remove those from the equation if you're looking for base stats.

    As for you claim...it's pretty easy to get a rig powerful enough to run on max settings while recording video, in a raid, with tons of addons running and maintain high fps. WoW isn't a super graphics intensive game.
    I know that SSAO, shadows etc arent addons but enabling that in WoW is a huge fps loss in fights with multiple players and yes it is impossible to record at 60 fps in a 25 man raid with all settings at max. Im using a 2500k OCed to 4,5Ghz and a nvidia 670 gtx and I can barely fraps at 25 fps with shadows/SSAO completely turned off.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    So either no one can make a good MMO or the people playing WOW are not MMO gamers.

    Take your pick because there can only be one true answer.
    You are right. What I am hoping is that someone will eventually make a good quality MMO with a big budget just for real gamers. In other words a HBO of games publishers. They'll get a million or maybe two million subs, but that will be more than enough to be highly profitable.

    Then we can let the casual masses have WoW and whatever the new Blizz MMORPG is, and finally be free of them.

    I think that Blizz will at least try to please everyone, but in the end it's impossible to please everyone with a limited budget, so they will always focus on the majority first. If they do make true RPG content they will always make it accessible to the masses in some way.

    You'd think that all this would be heartbreaking for Blizzard, but I'm sure they are more than happy to profit from killing the MMORPG genre.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    I know that SSAO, shadows etc arent addons but enabling that in WoW is a huge fps loss in fights with multiple players and yes it is impossible to record at 60 fps in a 25 man raid with all settings at max. Im using a 2500k OCed to 4,5Ghz and a nvidia 670 gtx and I can barely fraps at 25 fps with shadows/SSAO completely turned off.
    The point I was trying to make is that a game like Tera can take those more intensive graphical features like shadows/tesselation/aa ect. and still deliver smooth performance on lower quality setups with them enabled.

    Are you recording to your main drive? Because that shits all over performance. With a rig like that (as per my computery friends who know far more about computers than I do), you should be able to record to a dedicated drive at 30+ fps with shadows/SSAO enabled.

  17. #217
    WoW saved mmos, before WoW there were about 200 asian mmos that cloned each other using either anime style ,top down(helbreath),or more realistic graphics (lineage) and about 5 others like Everquest and Asherons Call.

    When WoW came out it brought so many new people into the genre so hundreds of games tried to copy it and failed. Developers realized they needed to actually try new things and so they started coming out with unique ideas and features.

  18. #218
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Nonsense. It might be however that you didn't get the point. The comparison makes perfect sense. You're criticizing recurring core mechanics of the genre, as if they weren't existant and accepted in others.

    You might want to read up on what a "red herring" is. I even announced the little excursion in the somewhat off topic, but nontheless relevant field. And even if we take it strictly, it still doesn't apply to the red herring idiom at all. In fact, the cross reference only makes the whole point more stringent - and points out what is mislead and invalid about your complaint.

    You mean something like "WoW questing is for the majority, as dull as it still is"?
    I didn't criticize core mechanics of other games. Each genre has their own type of content. You can not compare one because it doesn't exist to begin with in the other.

    That was my opinion, unlike you stating that of 'gamers' in general.

    Either way this is just arguing semantics now.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by frogger237 View Post
    WoW saved mmos, before WoW there were about 200 asian mmos that cloned each other using either anime style ,top down(helbreath),or more realistic graphics (lineage) and about 5 others like Everquest and Asherons Call.
    Erm...what were all these Asian clone MMO's and what were they cloning >.>? I can think of maybe a half dozen that made their way over to the West, and that's stretching it.

    The clones all came out post-WoW.

  20. #220
    I am Murloc!
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    let's take a step back for a minute

    What does MMO stand for? Massively Multiplayer Online. That's the only requirement, to have a massive number of player connected to the same world.
    The deffinition of massive can vary but, i think a good accepted number should be between several hundred to several thousand.


    Where is it said that an MMO should be 1-10 key based? Where in the definition of MMO it is said that the global cool down, be it between 1 or 2 seconds, should be the tempo of everygame play.

    There are MMO that tried to break the mold, such as eve, planetside for the most well known, but there are far more that just try to emilate the sacred everquest formula, glorified by wow.

    You got your hotkey set up, you got your tank, heal, dps, you know your GCD tempo, now go kill some big bad monster. Why? Because WoW demonstrate that formula can work and make billions of $, so everyone copy, with a different flavor.

    On can argue the MMO genre has hit a major stop in progression, the MMO that are "outside the box" are too few and marginal to impact the genre while behemoth like wow just rehash the same formula years after years.

    Make no mistake, if the formula bring so many players, that certainly is a good formula, but is it the best. Is GCD rythmed, hotkey bind, tank/heal/DPS trilogy, kill bad guy get loot, the end, be all, formula of MMO beyond which they can be no evolution, no creativity.

    If this was a math function with many many parameters, i'd say we have hit a local minima, a well, so stable that the function doesn't evolve anymore, unless we give it a giant kick.

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