Speculation on what Ra-Den is

[Thehealbus]

So Ra-Den found a titan watcher guarding some ancient titan machine, defeated the watcher, imprisoned him, and took his heart and the machine.

The Thunder King is starting to sound like some sort of ultimate badass.

[GennGreymane]

maybe he originally made a deal with ra-den which is why he was able to gain power and start an empire

aaannnnd then betrays ra-den and imprisons him and brings him some where else.

[Immitis]

He is referred to specifically as a Titan, is he not? A "Titan Keeper." While yes, Keepers and Watchers are sometimes used interchangeably, Keepers have typically never been anything other than simple stone constructs, which Ra-Den is obviously something more than. So they way I took it, in that context, was that he was a Titan that was serving as a Keeper, obviously over something extremely important. Considering his model is referred to in the game files specifically as a "Captured Titan," and Blizzard has been so cagey about revealing him, it seems like a natural assumption to me.

titan watcher just means a watcher created by titans. plus most watchers and keepers are called titans in the game files

[Exorte]

He is referred to specifically as a Titan, is he not? A "Titan Keeper." While yes, Keepers and Watchers are sometimes used interchangeably, Keepers have typically never been anything other than simple stone constructs, which Ra-Den is obviously something more than. So they way I took it, in that context, was that he was a Titan that was serving as a Keeper, obviously over something extremely important. Considering his model is referred to in the game files specifically as a "Captured Titan," and Blizzard has been so cagey about revealing him, it seems like a natural assumption to me.

This is not the first titan watcher looks like that, in fact many titan watcher do look a lot like Ra-Den.
One of the Ulduar boss
http://www.wowwiki.com/Freya
I don't think it is ever stat if titan watcher are titans or not, but most assume they are not.
Unless Blizzard is suddenly going to say "surprise titan watcher are actually titans, and they are in the game since classic" http://www.wowwiki.com/Archaedas.

[Baba]

Well now we know!

[Nekosom]

titan watcher just means a watcher created by titans. plus most watchers and keepers are called titans in the game files

Example? And again, you guys keep saying "Titan Watcher" when he's referred to as a "Titan Keeper," which in spite of your insistence constitutes a massive difference. And when they're referred to as such, they're referred to as "Titanic Keepers" and "Titanic Watchers." I just find it hard to believe that a single Titanic construct could be so powerful that his heart could turn Lei Shen into a demigod, and that his blood could then be used as a potent weapon. Oh yeah, and that he's a heroic-only raid boss in spite of being without a heart and obviously severely injured. I just think you guys are taking a general word, used in many contexts throughout the game, and forming a conclusion based on it, when to me, every other implication is that Ra-Den is an actual Titan. But I suppose time will tell.

This is not the first titan watcher looks like that, in fact many titan watcher do look a lot like Ra-Den.
One of the Ulduar boss
http://www.wowwiki.com/Freya
I don't think it is ever stat if titan watcher are titans or not, but most assume they are not.
Unless Blizzard is suddenly going to say "surprise titan watcher are actually titans, and they are in the game since classic" http://www.wowwiki.com/Myzrael.

Watchers are created in the image of the Titans (accept Mimiron, apparently). Every illustration of the Titans portrays them as identical to their various constructs. So...would you expect them to look any different?

[Exorte]

Example? And again, you guys keep saying "Titan Watcher" when he's referred to as a "Titan Keeper," which in spite of your insistence constitutes a massive difference. And when they're referred to as such, they're referred to as "Titanic Keepers" and "Titanic Watchers." I just find it hard to believe that a single Titanic construct could be so powerful that his heart could turn Lei Shen into a demigod, and that his blood could then be used as a potent weapon. Oh yeah, and that he's a heroic-only raid boss in spite of being without a heart and obviously severely injured. I just think you guys are taking a general word, used in many contexts throughout the game, and forming a conclusion based on it, when to me, every other implication is that Ra-Den is an actual Titan. But I suppose time will tell.

He is refer to as Titan watcher in dungeon journal. I don't know where is he refer as a keeper. Edit: nvm he is refer as a keeper.
By the way, many titan watcher are level ?? and/or raid boss.
Have you done Ulduar before? That place is crawling with Titan watcher raid boss.

[Nekosom]

He is refer to as Titan watcher in dungeon journal. I don't know where is he refer as a keeper. edit: nvm he is refer as a keeper.
By the way, many titan watcher are level ?? and/or raid boss.
Have you done Ulduar before? That place is crawling with Titan watcher raid boss.

Again though, his heart was ripped out, he looks like he's been beat to hell, and yet it is he and not Lei Shen that is the final boss? That suggests a pretty massive amount of power, don't you think?

[Exorte]

Again though, his heart was ripped out, he looks like he's been beat to hell, and yet it is he and not Lei Shen that is the final boss? That suggests a pretty massive amount of power, don't you think?

Actually true...
He is the final boss not Thunder King...

[leviathonlx]

maybe he originally made a deal with ra-den which is why he was able to gain power and start an empire

aaannnnd then betrays ra-den and imprisons him and brings him some where else.

Possible that something may have happened to Ra-Den himself.

[Immitis]

Again though, his heart was ripped out, he looks like he's been beat to hell, and yet it is he and not Lei Shen that is the final boss? That suggests a pretty massive amount of power, don't you think?

algalon was just a keeper too. and it was only with the help of the watchers in ulduar that we were able to stop yogg saron so yeah a watcher combined with the powers of the mogu leader another titan construct would be like a demi god.

[Thehealbus]

Again though, his heart was ripped out, he looks like he's been beat to hell, and yet it is he and not Lei Shen that is the final boss? That suggests a pretty massive amount of power, don't you think?

Just because he is the heroic only final boss of a raid instance does not mean he is the strongest in lore or actual battle.

[HatredAU]

Maybe this?

http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...anCaptured.jpg

[Ashijin]

I would guess Ra-Den is actually the missing Watcher, Tyr, from Ulduar, who left to go on a journey and disappeared.

[Immitis]

I would guess Ra-Den is actually the missing Watcher, Tyr, from Ulduar, who left to go on a journey and disappeared.

no tyr has a silver hand

[Netherspark]

To clarify here: The constructs that the Titans created to protect their stuff are called Keepers. The "watchers" are specifically Thorim, Freya, Hodir, Mimiron and Tyr - they are called watchers because they are the guards of Yogg-saron's prison. So the word 'watcher' here refers to a group of contructs, not a type of construct.

Ra-den is a keeper. Thorim is also a keeper who happens to be one of the Watchers.


Now, about the wording of Ra-den's model name: All keepers and everything that shares their animations are labled as "titan" in the game files, even Thaddius in Naxxramas.

[Deleted]

Again though, his heart was ripped out, he looks like he's been beat to hell, and yet it is he and not Lei Shen that is the final boss? That suggests a pretty massive amount of power, don't you think?

Not necessarily - locking every LFR player and normal mode raid player out of any proper closure on the tier isn't good sense - they can now complete their "story" and get closure on the raid via LFR, they wouldn't if Lei'shi (who the tiers story is built around) was heroic only, giving heroic raiders a little extra works well, but they couldn't give them exclusive rights to the focal point of the tier.

[Mehrunes Dagon]

To clarify here: The constructs that the Titans created to protect their stuff are called Keepers. The "watchers" are specifically Thorim, Freya, Hodir, Mimiron and Tyr - they are called watchers because they are the guards of Yogg-saron's prison. So the word 'watcher' here refers to a group of contructs, not a type of construct.

Ra-den is a keeper. Thorim is also a keeper who happens to be one of the Watchers.


Now, about the wording of Ra-den's model name: All keepers and everything that shares their animations are labled as "titan" in the game files, even Thaddius in Naxxramas.

Reason, late you have arrived.

[Black Rider]

It seems Mogu's were using his Blood?
Interesting we've to kill him or we just have to defeat him like Alganon?

[Spray]

To me, there are many speculations from you, guys, which actually can be linked with each other, at least imho.

Someone pointed out his resemblance to the Kologarn. Now, who exactly was Kologarn? A Titan? Naaah. A Titan construct? Yep. And he was, as greatly explained up here by Netherspark - a Titan construct designed to guard something, a Keeper. Kologarn's duty was to protect Antechamber from the trespassers. Now, was Thorim a Keeper as well? Along with Mimiron/Freya/Tyr/Hodir? Yes, but they were specific Keepers, with a way greater purpose. They were meant to keep Yogg-Saron in imprisonment. But they were still Keepers, so Watchers are Keepers (Watchers, not watchers, the difference is in a big letter... "Watchers" are THE Watchers, specific group of titanic watchers, aka Keepers) aren't really interchangeable.

Now, we somehow determined that big, clearly defensive Titan constructs are called Keepers and are deployed in order to guard certain places and secrets in it.

We have Kologarn, guarding the heart of Ulduar.
Then we have Auriaya, presumably given the similar task.
We have Archaedas, being the ultimate guard of Uldaman, protecting the Discs of Norgannon.

So, this leads to the logical assumption - Titans never leave anything important without a powerful watcher/Keeper.
Engine of Nalak'sha is one of definitely important things, right?
And of course, of course, you could say "well, you know, buddy, but.. hey, we have, like, Elegon, you know..?"
Of course we have! But isn't he a little not-Titanic? He's celestial and all, but his shape... Resembles the land, but wouldn't Titans rather have someone of their own kind? Like Ra-Den?

For me, he was appointed as a guardian of the Engine of Nalak'sha. Now, there are several speculations about the Mogu contribution in all of that.
- were they originally meant as a Titan artificial race, Earthen alike?
- did they just marched in, seized the power of the vaults, defeated and imprisoned Ra-Den, seeking his wisdom, and finally appointed one of the native beasts, enhancing it in the process to become Elegon?

No matter how they actually accomplished being in charge of the Engine, it looks like Ra-Den is its former watcher, both from model and the general "feel".
Now, why is he bleeding? Stones do not normally bleed, right?
Mogu are known for their savagery and lust for torturing (*ekhm* Krasarang *ekhm*), they just encountered someone otherwordly, Ra-den is a fascinating subject for them... Assuming they're either connected to the Old God itself (speculation), or just familiar with Curse of Flesh, having normal bodies before (another speculation), they COULD have a way to "play" with it, make him suffer in order to getting information. Sounds Mogu-ish to me.

Final thought, as for the last boss. Someone asked: if Lei Shi is such powerful and et cetera, why would the defeated, weakened, and presumably imprisoned Titanic watcher be a heroic-only boss? The truth is, we don't even know the type of the fight. Someone mentioned it could resemble Valithria..
Gathering his blood in a timely manner in order to him regaining his strength and retaking the vaults and the Engine? WHY NOT.

Possibilities are endless, they just don't differ from each other, as some of you thought. They all can be very well true and still connect to the others in some way.

Keep up the good work, guys, it's amazing!