Affliction - why so high on meters?

[nightfalls]

It's funny how you seem to think that "bigger nerfs" necessarily have to put Affliction in last place. Not sure if you're aware of how HUGE the cap between the top (Affliction/Arcane) and the bottom (Elemental, UH, Arms etc.) is.

You can't compare UH and Arms because after all, fury and frost are top specs in the game. As GC has emphasized many times, this means good warriors will mainly play fury and good DKs will mainly play frost.

I'm not disputing that the two specs could be better, but generally it's more worth it to look at class versus spec. That's why warlocks are (generally) judged by affliction, mages by arcane, warriors by fury, and death knights by frost. As a DPS main for those four classes, you'd be expected to switch between your DPS specs.

Shamans are bad, I won't lie, and I agree that you can't really "expect" elemental players to switch between enhance (not saying that some won't switch), since that's ranged versus melee, which means the playstyle is very different.


I digress now, let me ask you a question: Where do you think affliction belongs on the pack, and how big of a nerf would you put in if you were the lead game designer?



P.S: On 25H spec score, fury warrior is 3rd, and frost DK is 5th, so warriors and death knights are 3rd and 5th on DPS, which is not bottom, but in the top half. Considering they are also hybrids with excellent (compared to other) tank specs, that makes the class as a whole place very well. Meanwhile warlock, and mage, and rogue off-specs are far lower ranking.

[Deleted]

Are people somewhat retarded? Aff is op. God im doing more damage on my lock ilvl 488 then my SP 502. Please tell me why 14 ilvl difference means nothing.?
And please, if you can't see it, please, look at logs more carefully. And one message saying aff multi/doting aoe isn't strong, god go hang yourself. On fights like elegon/unsok you can pick a talent that makes your aoe have a 34 radius so you can aoe where none can... And afflic multi doting is currently the best in game, all thought I will admit it is not flagrantly so(at least not as much as single target dmg) it is still a fair margin ahead of sp/moonkin(because its instant). Currently the only fight I do more damage on my SP is elegon. On every other fights, my lock is pretty much at the same dps, and fairly ahead on any single target fights(and I still don't have 4p and a blue trinket..).
If locks aren't nerfed for 5.2, I won't really care as it will be my new main, either that or SP gets some much needed love for single target fights. But im not gona get carried 2 tiers by the locks of my raid...

Historically aff was the same lvl of SP and moonkin, but now their single target dmg is so far off of those 2 specs you can't really compare them anymore. And hybrid SHOULD NEVER BE LOWER IN DPS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A TANK/HEAL SPEC, NEVER! And i mean it, its not because you have a freaking healing spec that its alright for you to do less damage, thats retarded. Blizzard is even trying to have all your dps spec up to the same level. Honestly, you got 3 raid viable specs(one totally op in most scenarios, one extremely op on aoe and one decent). Mages were in the same boat, they had 2 extremely viable(op) specs, one lacking true, but blizz is trying to put it back up there(+9% dmg on frostbolt atm). Rogues have 2 out 3 specs in the top tier too.
So Im sorry what is wrong for hybrids that have only one dps spec(or at least one melee or ranged) to have the same dps as a pur dps class? Having the possibility to heal should not mean my dps is lower. This completely destroys the "bring the player not the class" concept... Healing should be counted as utility, like portals and healthstones. I understand that hybrids utility is healing in most cases, but then every other spec in the game brings utility to your raid. On the other hand, DPS in mandatory, you need to do X dmg in Y minutes, or you die. Every spec/class should have the possibility to achieve the same potential damage, or close enough. When there is a 20k dps gap, this is not balance.


Infracted for flaming. ~xskarma

[Purpleisbetter]

How can you nerf the damage of a class wich is already doing pathetically in pvp...DAMAGE WISE?

If anything, revert changes from KJC to a casting speed reduction (yet not as strong as the old one).

Btw while its true its quite good everywhere, it's not so dominating the top parses either. Penalizing a class for beeing versatile and overally good in all scenarios its idiotic to say at best.For the same reason you should go and say that the War Fury and Rogue combat aswell, since they're quite the performers in more then a handfull of fights.

You should just sit and wait 5.2.

p.s.: Never forget pvp issues.Because, you know, giving more damage the Arms Warrior, or a better sustained to BM hunters are, for example, BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD IDEAS.

Think twice and be careful on what u gays are asking.

Infracted for flaming. ~xskarma

[velde046]

Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?

WHy so whiny, if it was PVP I'd understand. But you are upset becausze someone with a different class is doing more damage than others? The deal about raiding is bringing down a boss as a team.... so if someone is able to put out better DPS tham me, I don't care that I'm last on DPS really, as long as my DPS is meeting requirements everybody else can do way more...
I do understand you're point but you are overreacting in my opinion. This is just the warlock's 15 minutes of fame, in a few months we'll be whining about another class. It's just something that comes with the hard to balance job that is WoW.

[Deleted]

This is hilarious.

Thank god you're not in charge of class balance.

[Deleted]

velde :> you do not understand the concept of balance. If one class is doing 20% more damage than you are: what the hell are you doing in this raid playing this class? Why are we not stacking this class? Why should I have to rerol and play this class to stay in my raid?

If there is no balance there is class stacking, its how its always been done, even this tier, a massive amount of guilds stacked mages/locks to clean this tier. You would have been lucky to be there as a SP, and even more so as an Esham. Sure skill is important but at some point, all your players are playing the class at nearly 100% of its capacities and you then see gaps, you eliminate gaps by eliminating the bad class.

[Deleted]

You can't compare UH and Arms because after all, fury and frost are top specs in the game. As GC has emphasized many times, this means good warriors will mainly play fury and good DKs will mainly play frost.

I'm not disputing that the two specs could be better, but generally it's more worth it to look at class versus spec. That's why warlocks are (generally) judged by affliction, mages by arcane, warriors by fury, and death knights by frost. As a DPS main for those four classes, you'd be expected to switch between your DPS specs.

Shamans are bad, I won't lie, and I agree that you can't really "expect" elemental players to switch between enhance (not saying that some won't switch), since that's ranged versus melee, which means the playstyle is very different.


I digress now, let me ask you a question: Where do you think affliction belongs on the pack, and how big of a nerf would you put in if you were the lead game designer?



P.S: On 25H spec score, fury warrior is 3rd, and frost DK is 5th, so warriors and death knights are 3rd and 5th on DPS, which is not bottom, but in the top half. Considering they are also hybrids with excellent (compared to other) tank specs, that makes the class as a whole place very well. Meanwhile warlock, and mage, and rogue off-specs are far lower ranking.

Sure then. Elemental, Enhancement, Feral, Balance, Shadow, Retribution. To mention a few.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 10:29 AM ----------

How can you nerf the damage of a class wich is already doing pathetically in pvp...DAMAGE WISE?

If anything, revert changes from KJC to a casting speed reduction (yet not as strong as the old one).

Btw while its true its quite good everywhere, it's not so dominating the top parses either. Penalizing a class for beeing versatile and overally good in all scenarios its idiotic to say at best.For the same reason you should go and say that the War Fury and Rogue combat aswell, since they're quite the performers in more then a handfull of fights.

You should just sit and wait 5.2.

p.s.: Never forget pvp issues.Because, you know, giving more damage the Arms Warrior, or a better sustained to BM hunters are, for example, BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD IDEAS.

Think twice and be careful on what u gays are asking.

The problem is, NO OTHER SPEC has the same level of "versitility". Great (if not imbalanced) single target damage, best multi-dotting in-game, better than average AoE (that really shines on some fights), great movement etc. etc.
There's no situation in which Affliction is at a disadvantage (average performance on Garalon is the closest it gets); in fact, it's above average at anything. No other spec has that luxury.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 10:30 AM ----------

This is hilarious.

Thank god you're not in charge of class balance.

Oh? I'm intrigued; why is it hilarious?

[Bloodfire]

I dnk.
Perhaps it's the problem of hands.dll instead of spec?
I'm sick of affliction always have to wait for stinkin souls to proc, maintain MG...
UFFF...
Probably will respec to destro after New Year.

[Vasilisa]

What's your problem with affliction being good? Is your ego hurt because he puts bigger total numbers then you do? As Sookiie said - it's good that you are not responsible for class balance.

[noaim]

Ok, so we concluded that affliction performs well overall, but on what fights is it so ridicilously overpowered that it warrants a huge nerf? Or is being wellrounded the new overpowered? How do you want to nerf that? "Oh no, a spec performs well in multiple situations, nerf it!". Among the dumbest shit I've ever read tbh.

[n0n3]

Affliction multi dotting is only op if we constantly have stuff to drain soul and get 4 shards every 20-30s else boomkins, spriests or even dks beat us on multi dotting. Single target i dont consider us op, you can look on wol and the only fight where u see warlocks shine is elegon due to MF. Yes we are top 3 most of the times but we're not 10-20% ahead of anyone else.

[Cirque]

The problem is, NO OTHER SPEC has the same level of "versitility". Great (if not imbalanced) single target damage, best multi-dotting in-game, better than average AoE (that really shines on some fights), great movement etc. etc.
There's no situation in which Affliction is at a disadvantage (average performance on Garalon is the closest it gets); in fact, it's above average at anything. No other spec has that luxury.[COLOR="red"]

Here's where you're wrong. Single target damage is great, but no, depending on how you define multidotting (which, most people, really mean to say "cleave" by) we're far from the best. From a 10man perspective, Affliction (or locks in general, really) are very, very niche. We only have Sha of Fear left to do, but there's been quite some fights where I sat because I don't bring the buffs, or I don't bring the utility, or, if I did, other classes brought better utility (cleave damage, for example, or aoe). Though I can do really, really, really good DPS on fights like Ambershaper hc and I am by far top, my utility makes me unfavorable on that specific fight as opposed to a fire mage, a warrior, or even a moonkin. For our progress, we decided to sit me for this reason. Just an example.

You guys forget it's not ALL about damage. If it were, then yes, we'd be blatantly OP.

When I was playing 25s, which now has been quite awhile, I remember I always felt like "the turret", you brought me for sheer damage and nothing else. There were only a handful of fights where warlocks were desirable for their utility and TBH in this content I can think of only one fight where I can say I have been *necessary* to a kill, which was Protectors hc (edit: and granted, Emperors I suppose). On a lot of other fights I have made myself sit (I'm officer) so we could get all buffs and utility other classes bring to further the progress, and in every fight I can argue that every class we brought was necessary to further the kill in terms of raid buffs, debuffs, raid cooldowns, or other utility such as kiting abilities, cleave burst and the like. I can't for the life of me find reasons to bring an affliction lock over our ele shaman in the majority of fights on 10man.

People here claim elemental shaman are bad. No, they're not. Sure, they're gonna do less damage than us. On the other hand, they bring spell haste and hero, they bring healing tide, they bring offhealing when so necessary, they bring rather strong aoe, they bring totems. They bring stuff. We'd never sit our ele shaman on progress. We may sit our aff lock, though.


And that to me is the biggest shortcoming to my class - I'd gladly trade some of my damage for utility, for superior cleave, for better buffs to the raid, for anything at all to make me useful beyond healthstones, summoning stones and sheer output.

[Deleted]

Because someone needs to be on top of the hill.
Just this time its us aff locks, and not some other spec.

it will change in the future without doubt to some other class, so I really know why people complain about locks being "too Strong" in PVE

Why the hell would people want to nerf other peoples PVE damage output ?
PVP I understand the tears of "Class X kills me too fast" but the tears of "Class x does more damage to the boss than me" just makes the mind boggle.

[Teye]

You can't compare UH and Arms because after all, fury and frost are top specs in the game. As GC has emphasized many times, this means good warriors will mainly play fury and good DKs will mainly play frost.

Ghostcrawler has never said that, stop making shit up. GC actually said on twitter last week that his main is Unholy, and that he feels they need balance buffs because their damage is so low. You really have no clue how class balance works. Its sad how wrong you are.

[evertonbelmontt]

Ghostcrawler has never said that, stop making shit up. GC actually said on twitter last week that his main is Unholy, and that he feels they need balance buffs because their damage is so low. You really have no clue how class balance works. Its sad how wrong you are.

Source. Or you're trolling/flaming, and if so, get out.
Whenever you try to talk for someone on the dev team, put your source in. Like he did with twitter posts.

Afflic is a good spec, a really good one, but every class has its own.
Should not compare afflic to UH when frosts do better. ALWAYS will be a best spec pve/pvp wise, face that.
So if you ask a nerf, ask for class itself comparing class to class.
IF, and a big IF, GC said that, i'm sure he didn't meant nerfing every other class or spec to buff unholy.
Nor said that afflic should lost his position on "top" (rs).

Actually, afflic is just getting nerfed so other LOCK specs and talents can be closer.
Destro getting the sac nerf is way less efective because havoc takes full advantage of it.

Forget about trying to whine about locks being good and needing a nerf to the ground so you could suck at dps at ease, not gonna happen.

[Deleted]

Are there any plans to buff Unholy Death Knights? It's really sad how underpowered this spec is right now.*

ou'll likely see some love in 5.2. Unrelated, my current main is Unholy. (Source)

is what he says. he doesnt say "its so low" which is just exhageration. comparing unholy dks is like comparing to destruction, mm hunters. each class always has a spec that performs better. each class has specs that perorm better under different circumstances. it seems people seem shocked that aff locks shine on multi dot where adds are spread.single target is fine aoe is good not great. burst is still trade off.

as locks we dont bring a great deal of utility and we certinly cant drop a healing cd mid fight to assist the kill. we are brought for damage. if we dont shine at that what do we bring? mages have a better sp buff. rogues bring coe. hs?

[luckydevours]

Actually the affliction spec by itself is pretty mediocre in single target situations, but its multidot potential is tremendous. However the talent Grimoire of Sacrifice raises its single target performance to the top while holding its strengths in multi target situations. So i totally support blizzards approach by bringing GoSac in line with Supremacy or Service, a 10% reduction therefor is probably not enough, i would consider a 40% damage bonus appropriate (20% nerf). Nerfs to affliction in general however are definitly unneeded und would further weaken the spec in PvP, in my opinion actually increasing the damage of our pets (felhunter, succcubus, imp) a bit would help balancing the spec and our three grimoire choices.

[Teye]

Source. Or you're trolling/flaming, and if so, get out.

https://twitter.com/CM_Zarhym/status/281551898320990208

The main page had it listed as GC, but its actually Zarhym. Lose the attitude.

Should not compare afflic to UH when frosts do better. ALWAYS will be a best spec pve/pvp wise, face that.

Tier 13 would like to speak with you. Please don't make broad spectrum statements without knowing your facts.

[evertonbelmontt]

https://twitter.com/CM_Zarhym/status/281551898320990208

The main page had it listed as GC, but its actually Zarhym. Lose the attitude.




Tier 13 would like to speak with you. Please don't make broad spectrum statements without knowing your facts.

So now Zarhym is our lead developer? /cheers!
Hahahahah
And yet, this doesn't change ANYTHING i said before, they are not going to nerf classes/specs so UH could be better, don't compare lock to UH waiting for that, it's a shame, really.

Tell me HOW on earth tier 13 denies that every class has a top spec on pvp or pve.
only thing it does is try to get things closer, but it ALWAYS will be a better spec, because min-max players, hardcore players, will do. FACE that.

[Teye]

So now Zarhym is our lead developer? /cheers!
Hahahahah
And yet, this doesn't change ANYTHING i said before, they are not going to nerf classes/specs so UH could be better, don't compare lock to UH waiting for that, it's a shame, really.

Tell me HOW on earth tier 13 denies that every class has a top spec on pvp or pve.
only thing it does is try to get things closer, but it ALWAYS will be a better spec, because min-max players, hardcore players, will do. FACE that.

You really need to lose the attitude, and read the thread again. I didn't bring up Unholy, someone who thinks Affliction is balanced did.

In T13, as well as T12, Unholy was ahead of Frost for dps in nearly all encounters. http://simulationcraft.org/

Zarhym is part of the dev team, and he knows just as much as GC does. If he says its getting buffed because its low on dps, its the truth.