No new dungeons, really Blizzard?

[Bashkar]

The best catch up mechanism is the one we had for 3 expansions (ok, 2 and a tier), badge system with new heroics giving improved gear, only not tied to reputation which are tied to dailies.

LFR (something you do once a week) sucks as a catch up mechanism.

I don't see the rep requirement being removed, but it's almost guaranteed that they'll move down to Justice.

I do like the idea of having the roll window increase with dated content.

Say this tier, you require a roll from 80-100 to win an item.
Upon 5.2 release, that window opens up to 60-100, and 5.2 starts at 80-100 Not guaranteed, but much more likely.
If a new raid drops in 5.4, the 5.0 tier is now 40-100, 5.2 is 60-100, etc.

I do like the sense of progression with their current philosophy. New dungeons would be appreciated, add them parallel to the previous tier's raids, but there are other options.

[Crashdummy]

Patches released since 27.12.2007 that also introduced a new tier (not counting expansions):
(2.4 was not a new tier, but for completions sake): 1 dungeon
3.1: no dungeon
3.2: 1 dungeon
3.3: 3 dungeons
4.2: no dungeons
4.3: 3 dungeons

Every single time? Nope.

4.2 is tricky, since they launched the dungeons that should have come with Firelands in 4.1.

You still had a tier of dungeons between t11 and firelands as a catch up mechanism.

[Gurbz]

LFR (something you do once a week) sucks as a catch up mechanism.

Why? Because it can't be done in a weekend of dungeon grinding? That's really the only argument I can see, is that it takes longer. Personally, I do not see that as a negative. People SHOULD have to invest some time into their character to get into the highest levels of content. The alternative is Cata, where someone could have started playing a month or so before MoP came out and still seen every bit of content the entire expansion provided before MoP released. That's bad.

All they need to do is increase the drop rate of gear. There are enough bosses that drop enough gear that it shouldn't take too long. Combine that with the item upgrade system, and it is fine. Remember one would only have to reach an iLvl that allows them to queue for the next tier of LFR. It's not like they have to hunt for BiS. This is the perfect balance of not invalidating prior content while still providing a mechanism for progressing a character up to the point of being able to run current content. And the best part is that it avoids the guild hopping/guild leeching issues that are usually so prevalent in progression, because a guild is not required to do LFR.

[XingoJenkins]

The other problem would seem to be that you are then completely limited on how to gear for the Teir 2 raids. There has already been an outcry of "this is bullshit" when it comes to LFR loot and the only alternative of the daily grind. The movement into Tier 2 can seemingly only exacerbate this issue further.

I don't know where but I thought I read something about new craftables though I think that was only for PVP. If so, they should have at least added a few across the board for PvE to eliminate some of the already miserable grind hours and weeks in T1 LFR so people could try to progress forward.

Well, maybe increasing your chances of getting items from previous LFR's would help you get gear for new tiers? Besides that, you could buy tier x-1 items with justice, decreasing even more your way to the next tier.

About craftables, I support the idea.

[Crashdummy]

BC launched with 14 dungeons, ended with 15, none were re-hashed (Though Old Hillsbrad may count)
Wrath launched with 11 dungeons, ended with 15, none were re-hashed (arguable about the ToC's though...)
Cataclysm launched with 9 dungeons, 2 of those re-hashed, ended with 14, 2 of the 4 new ones were rehashed (though HoT/End Time may arguably count as re-hashed)
MoP launched with 9 dungeons, 3 of those 9 dungeons (1/3rd of the heroic dungeons) were re-hashed...So far, no new ones added.

Correction, BC launched with 15 dungeons, ended up with 16.

[hakujinbakasama]

It's funny that so many people are complaining about the catch-up doing old raids system,yet they claim that they love TBC,which used the same damn system

Loving TBC doesn't mean it didn't have some flaws or drawbacks. I do think it is atleast semi-interesting that TBC had guilds a week or two before Wrath still trying to complete Kara. However, at least, to some degree, TBC had options when it came to raiding. At a specific point you could go try Gruuls or Mags before finishing Kara. You could go to TK if you didn't want to do SSC for the night/week. You could, to an extent, choose which bosses you wanted to tackle. You COULD avoid it all together.

The LFR system was much needed more at the time of TBC than it was in Wrath and frankly I'd probably still have "drive" to keep playing if they brought back the Wrath style badge system. Which was something that was created in TBC, albeit too late in my opinion and or not well enough. So the real complaint is that TBC just didn't get things right quickly enough, but for a lot of us it was the 5 man dungeons and the scope of TBC which made it "better" but not claiming it was perfect.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 12:03 PM ----------

Well, maybe increasing your chances of getting items from previous LFR's would help you get gear for new tiers? Besides that, you could buy tier x-1 items with justice, decreasing even more your way to the next tier.

About craftables, I support the idea.

I still think that they should just build upon where the left off with Wrath as far as the badge system goes. This would give LFR players the feeling that even though something didnt' drop they still made headway, it would allow dailies to be more of an option, and it would allow for a better bridge to harder content ie heroics or 25 man (it was in Wrath.)

I'm pretty sure there isn't much of a downside to this other than the poor sap who has to code it over at Blizzard HQ.

[Crashdummy]

I don't see the rep requirement being removed, but it's almost guaranteed that they'll move down to Justice.

I do like the idea of having the roll window increase with dated content.

Say this tier, you require a roll from 80-100 to win an item.
Upon 5.2 release, that window opens up to 60-100, and 5.2 starts at 80-100 Not guaranteed, but much more likely.
If a new raid drops in 5.4, the 5.0 tier is now 40-100, 5.2 is 60-100, etc.

I do like the sense of progression with their current philosophy. New dungeons would be appreciated, add them parallel to the previous tier's raids, but there are other options.

We cant replace dungeon grinding with a weekly LFR.
I dont see many other options, and i dont know why something that worked for 2 expansions and a tier needs to suddenly be broken.

[davesurfer]

Really? Everytime I've had a healer in the scenarios I've done the time has been cut instead of increased. Especially the ones where you can mass pull and aoe everything down at once (love going prot on Theramore with a healer and pull every trash pack to each objective at once)

Yeah this is my experience too. I go in Blood and my wife in Disc. Healers can still throw out some DPS. But like you said I gather everything up since they hit like sissies in scenarios.

[Crashdummy]

Why? Because it can't be done in a weekend of dungeon grinding? That's really the only argument I can see, is that it takes longer. Personally, I do not see that as a negative. People SHOULD have to invest some time into their character to get into the highest levels of content. The alternative is Cata, where someone could have started playing a month or so before MoP came out and still seen every bit of content the entire expansion provided before MoP released. That's bad.

All they need to do is increase the drop rate of gear. There are enough bosses that drop enough gear that it shouldn't take too long. Combine that with the item upgrade system, and it is fine. Remember one would only have to reach an iLvl that allows them to queue for the next tier of LFR. It's not like they have to hunt for BiS. This is the perfect balance of not invalidating prior content while still providing a mechanism for progressing a character up to the point of being able to run current content. And the best part is that it avoids the guild hopping/guild leeching issues that are usually so prevalent in progression, because a guild is not required to do LFR.

Why? Because a catch up mechanism is that, a mechanism that lets you catch up to get near the level of gear of other people faster.

LFR cant accomplish that because it takes MONTHS to catch up someone by itself.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 03:08 PM ----------

Yeah this is my experience too. I go in Blood and my wife in Disc. Healers can still throw out some DPS. But like you said I gather everything up since they hit like sissies in scenarios.

Go grab everything up in Arena scenario or A Little Patience...

Scenarios are designed for DPS.

[Dravelar]

Why? Because a catch up mechanism is that, a mechanism that lets you catch up to get near the level of gear of other people faster.

LFR cant accomplish that because it takes MONTHS to catch up someone by itself.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 03:08 PM ----------



Go grab everything up in Arena scenario or A Little Patience...

Scenarios are designed for DPS.

But what is the point of getting to the level of gear of other people if you are not even going to do the new raid? I mean, one of the things that i liked the most about TBC was that everybody played at their own pace,it didn't bother me if the guy had gear from Illidan while i was still doing Kara,because i knew that he commited more time and effort into that,so he deserves it better.Nowadays everybody wants the best gear available without doing anything to earn it

[Nelrock]

Basically what Blizzard is saying is that you get to gear up the same way everyone else did. Run heroics, buy/creaft gear, run LFR. With the new LFR loot system, they could likely increase the % chance of getting gear to speed up the gearing process there a bit. But there will be no more of the absurdity from Wrath/Cata where you reach max level and are fully raid ready for the current tier in a few hours of playing. It is possible to have a catch-up mechanic in place while still requiring a little dedication to gearing that character. It doesn't have to be near instantaneous.

Right...but unless they remove the weekly lockout from the current LFRs...or increase the valor cap so people can farm and buy faster...they're making it pointless.
There was no LFR in BC. I ran the 5 mans...capped my valor...and ran the MV LFR. Were in not for the stuff I'd gotten running MV with my guild, when HoF dropped, I wouldn't of had the iLevel to queue. My LFR drops were 0. There wasn't enough week to do anything useful with valor.
Which is why I was wondering.
Not sure why anyone would farm 5's...to get to MV/HoF/Terrace...to run those week after week...just to finally get to the 5.2 ilevel...to have 5.3 or 5.4 or whatever drop...adding the next raid that they now cant get into.
Not saying it should be instantaneous...but folks are gonna complain to have some method. Just sayin'.

[Kissme]

that has to do with not enough people pvping. if more people played pvp there would be more pvp content.

Chicken and egg argument - if pvp was better (more options, more balanced, etc) then more people would pvp.

The problem with WoW pvp right now seems to be threefold

1) Lack of balance (everything seems to indicate that it's in the worst shape since vanilla from a balance standpoint)
2) Lack of content - pvp is the black sheep of wow development, possibly because the current development team worries more about balancing numbers than concepts. PvP has inherently difficult to balance numbers because it's difficult to weigh burst potential and cc abilities in the inherently fluid PvP environment compared to the relatively static PvE one.
3) Lack of uniqueness/originality - classes have becoming increasingly homogenized and flavorless in an attempt to make them balanced by giving them similar toolkits. There is far less paper - rock - scissors dynamics now.

All three of these factors make pvp less fun and thus less people participate in it. With less people participating, it's difficult to justify allocating resources to a part of the game less people play. This leads to a viscious cycle of degrading PvP content, both in terms of quality and quantity. The difference is, unlike PvE where they added LFR to increase the potential player base using the content and thus justified continuing to pour resources into raid development, PvP content can't just be made easier/more accessible to less dedicated/skilled players by tuning the content. You can't make a "battleground for morons" toggle because in most cases the vast majority are already playing the easy queu system. You can't tune their opposition, because you can't scale other players ("I'm sorry, you're too good vs the average rating in this BG so we'll arbitrarily nerf all your abilities by 50% compared to everyone else"). You also can't scale the rewards, because the system already has scaled rewards - the better you are, the faster you get gear (in theory) and thus become relatively more powerful. This model just compounds the problem, unfortunately, as it means the more skilled players also get better gear faster and thus have a raw numeric advantage on top of a skill one. While this balances at the top ranks, that is no consolation to the vast majority.

[George Costanza]

The new patch model was supposed to be:
X.0 (release)
X.1 (content of some sort)
X.2 (new tier PvE and PvP)
X.3 (new 5man content, possibly BGs and Scenarios)
~repeat.

pretty sure that's the plan iirc from Q&A during beta or something.

Sure hope thats correct I like that plan alot . Especially if we have something before Siege of orgrimmar as I don't want it to be during the end of the summer

[Deleted]

Why would you want new dungeons? Existing ones are total faceroll, done in 10 minutes and then forgotten. You want more of that pointless faceroll?

[Mawnix]

<--Lives on High Population PVP server.

<--Runs into a lot of issues issues, always grouped.

<--Completes them everyday in near 2 hours

<--tries not to PVP.

Funny how anecdotal evidence works, isnt it?

What server anyways? I'm on Stormreaver.

[hakujinbakasama]

I love the fact that people complained about the HoT dungeons and the gear from them letting players skip previous raids that others "worked so hard in". Now, we seem to be begging for them...

It's also amusing that TBC is praised as the best expansion ever and the progression system currently used is, essentially, the same as in TBC. Yet, people seem to hate it so much.

WoW community (obviously, not all of you)... you amuse me.

Didn't TBC have a badge system. Oh wait, it totally did.

But what is the point of getting to the level of gear of other people if you are not even going to do the new raid? I mean, one of the things that i liked the most about TBC was that everybody played at their own pace,it didn't bother me if the guy had gear from Illidan while i was still doing Kara,because i knew that he commited more time and effort into that,so he deserves it better.Nowadays everybody wants the best gear available without doing anything to earn it

You're going off of this as if they WON'T be doing Tier 2 LFR or will NEVER try to do Normal raiding.

You're also still making blanketed statements about TBC which I've yet to see claimed. TBC had it's problems. TBC had a badge system. TBC had some what of a diverse raiding tier option. TBC also had several elements which completely separate it. MANY people didn't have 4+ lvl 70's a month or even a YEAR into the expansion making the options to gear/progress with multiple toons a nightmare. Stop trying to compare things which cannot be done as there are EXTREME differing variables.

[Mawnix]

Hey, look! A unicorn! I'm a highpop PVP server on the minority faction. The PVP dailies took me between 30 minutes on a good day to more than an hour on a bad day because there will always be sudden, out-of-nowhere, burst PVP action in my face. One of the reasons being a Monk (or Druid) is phenominal this patch is because of those dailies can be done without having to land.



I actually think that's a great idea. If they went up from the alleged "15% chance" to more like "33% chance" to win loot form MSV and maybe a "25% chance" in HoF/ToES in 5.2, that'd make it comparable.

In BC, when you had to take people on old raids to get attuned, the other 24 people didn't roll on the old loot.

Hm, well, I openly admit the whole PVP thing is an issue, which is why they're offering PVP and PVE only quests next patch. Fortunately, they're learning from their mistakes. Reducing the time to do Dailies this patch was the first step forward.

[Szemere]

LFR mainly replaces dungeons in terms of loot tiers now. That's the reasoning. And I wouldn't want any new dungeons anyways if it wasn't for challenge modes, you run em once and then they usually get boring as hell.

[Crashdummy]

I love the fact that people complained about the HoT dungeons and the gear from them letting players skip previous raids that others "worked so hard in". Now, we seem to be begging for them...

It's also amusing that TBC is praised as the best expansion ever and the progression system currently used is, essentially, the same as in TBC. Yet, people seem to hate it so much.

WoW community (obviously, not all of you)... you amuse me.

10 millon people playing. Some people might have complained about one thing, other people completely unrelated might be complaining about the other subject.

[Duito]

Shut up before I tell blizzard your bitching to much and have them nerf you to the ground...so you have nothing, no pve or pvp! Now enjoy what they give you and your multiple buffs!

Fuck, they give you a raid with 13 bosses...interesting mechanics, the last boss only can be done in heroic! Why work on new fucking dungeons....when you can work on that?!