No new dungeons, really Blizzard?

[hakujinbakasama]

There is no RNG involved son.If you are not lucky with LFR,you can get crafted gear,rep gear,you can do world bosses and stuff.Now if people are not doing any of that,then they won't get upgrades,because they lacked the minimum effort into getting it.

Those world bosses and their PvP gear really help Raid progression. Those 20-50k gold craftables really help the average player. Profession items are quite limited and on the scale of things don't help the ilvl that much. Beyond that, you're still right back to where this whole argument started. Even then, the RNG wall is still on those "world" bosses and in LFR. And crafted items really only help when the costs to make said items aren't a complete form of pure dedication for the mass base in which we're talking about as it is.

[AlisonPrime]

Well, you might as well get used to no new dungeons : Blizzard DID state they want the progression path for people not raiding to be 85 > 90 > Gear up for Heroics > LFR or Raid Tier 14 > LFR or Raid Tier 15 > LFR or Raid Tier 16 and any other tiers they added. They didn't like the super quick gear method introduced in Cata as you spent your whole time in HoT's to get into DS LFR.

[MoanaLisa]

The problem is that people would like more "options" and Blizzard seems to be dead faced as to why those options aren't given. Anyone claiming that the "left" (as it were) wants "free" stuff with zero given is just being an ass. The reality is more like that they don't want to constantly have to do the SAME thing over and over again while not feeling as if they are actually progressing. As I've said before. This constant comparison to TBC falls dead on the fucking floor when you realize that during TBC most people barely had 2 level 70s by the end of the expansion and thus the progression wall was far less apparent.

There will never be enough options for someone with more than a couple of alts.

[Crashdummy]

..on the other hand..the more "options" are given the more people scream how they feel "forced" to use them all (on their main) and how "alt-unfriendly" the game has become

They are not giving more options, they are giving less, and thats what makes it forced.

[Nelrock]

There is no RNG involved son.If you are not lucky with LFR,you can get crafted gear,rep gear,you can do world bosses and stuff.Now if people are not doing any of that,then they won't get upgrades,because they lacked the minimum effort into getting it.

Rep gear is tied to valor...and valor is capped.
Crafted gear...of iLevel that would be needed...require patterns and mats that the average player wouldnt have access to...or would need to spend a shitton of gold to aquire.
World bosses are same RNG as LFR.
Personally think they should just remove or increase the valor cap. That way...folks still have to put some time and effort in, but aren't impacted by RNG, caps, or lockouts.

[Crashdummy]

The MoP tagline "We want you to play how you like" is degenerating rapidly back to "We want you to play how we've suddenly decided is the best way to play this expansion". Which, really, is nothing new for Blizz, but I guess I got taken in by the promise.

This is what is happening, which saddens me.

They keep giving us less and less options, pidgeonholing us into what they want us to do.

They forced us to do the dailies in 5.0 and 5.1, and now they even remove dungeons as catch up mechanism, forcing us even more into the daily system (if anyone disregarded their raid group enough to ignore the fact that they were holding them back, they wont be able to do it now).

They are basically saying to people: You either raid, or you do dailies, you have no other progression path whatsoever, which is plain lame.

they give us less options, and some people seem to not care.

[hakujinbakasama]

There will never be enough options for someone with more than a couple of alts.

I will admit that I feel completely biased on this. I didn't have any problem nor feel "forced" in anyway during Wrath. I was working full time, going to school full time, and exercising regularly and never felt "oh damn I'm so forced to do all of X to get my toons in progression" so I've never really cared for that argument. I had 5 level 80s during wrath and not once did I feel "swamped." I'm sorry if people did but I think they are full of shit. There isn't a special uber price for getting "there" in a specific time frame anyway.

If anything it was PvP players who were ever "forced" to do anything and that was in during TBC with the Battlegroup reward.

[Crashdummy]

There will never be enough options for someone with more than a couple of alts.

This is not true, since it already happened in the last two expansions.

[Archibalde]

If I can solo most scenarios in less than 20 min I fail to see how adding another person would come close to extending them. Hell in most of them you are slowed down by the NPCs and the dialogue more than you are the fighting.

That's the reason, though. You can solo it in 20 minutes, good for you. They are designed around 3 players though. That's how most people complete them. If you end up in a scenario where you get healed by the NPCs, like Dagger in the Dark or Brewing Storm, or if you are with two other classes with great self healing/defensive cooldowns, then the healer's only contribution is overhealing. It's a wasted spot that could otherwise increase the efficiency of the group. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting every player involved to at least put an effort in, and standing still firing one or two heals every 30 seconds because there's absolutely no need to heal anything doesn't really count as an effort.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

This is concerning. This is very concerning.

The trend is by now we'd have some new dungeons to keep the old ones from growing unimportant and boring*. This isn't happening. Which leaves me very concerned that Blizz is planning to shake up our group content next expansion.

1. They end 25-man raiding.

2. Raids are now 10 and 5 man.

3. Scenarios are used for leveling in place of dungeons.

4. LFR replaces heroic dungeons.

*Wrath had TotC and the ICC dungeons, Cata had the Trolls and the DS dungeons.

[Iceman2500]

Well, you might as well get used to no new dungeons : Blizzard DID state they want the progression path for people not raiding to be 85 > 90 > Gear up for Heroics > LFR or Raid Tier 14 > LFR or Raid Tier 15 > LFR or Raid Tier 16 and any other tiers they added. They didn't like the super quick gear method introduced in Cata as you spent your whole time in HoT's to get into DS LFR.

It goes back earlier than that; Wrath had Trial of the Champion and the Icecrown 5-mans that dropped Ulduar/ToC quality epics, and BC's Magister's Terrace dropped gear that was on par with upper quality T4.

[hakujinbakasama]

Well, first of all - we don't know what ilv is needed to face the new LFraid. It could be ilv 476 which you get by crafted gear and VP gear. (and running Sha of Anger and LFraid occasionally) - and I might not be too far off in that estimation.

Yes, VP gear also needs rep (revered) - so if you construct a situation where people who absolutely only want to run LFraid once and refuse to quest to honored to then do dailies to revered are "screwed" then I guess this situation can be constructed.

Personally I aquired an ilv of 480 right now with dailies, 5 mans, two Sha, crafted gear and one LFraid run. Basically I cannot see Blizzard saying "Not only do you need to run the 5.0 LFraid once but you need an ilv of 496" (which in turn can only be reached by running months and months of normal raids.

So it all very academic.

Did I fall sleep at the wheel? I've never felt "hindered" by factions until this expansion. Isle was the only thing I actually farmed the shit out of in the guise of progression. Perhaps that's the real change people are more frustrated with.

[Boricha]

Because it extends the amount of time a scenario takes by 10-20 minutes.

Honestly I disagree with this. When I do a scenario and get grouped with a healer it just means I get to play recklessly and aggro way more to aoe down faster.

[Crashdummy]

Well, first of all - we don't know what ilv is needed to face the new LFraid. It could be ilv 476 which you get by crafted gear and VP gear. (and running Sha of Anger and LFraid occasionally) - and I might not be too far off in that estimation.

Yes, VP gear also needs rep (revered) - so if you construct a situation where people who absolutely only want to run LFraid once and refuse to quest to honored to then do dailies to revered are "screwed" then I guess this situation can be constructed.

Personally I aquired an ilv of 480 right now with dailies, 5 mans, two Sha, crafted gear and one LFraid run. Basically I cannot see Blizzard saying "Not only do you need to run the 5.0 LFraid once but you need an ilv of 496" (which in turn can only be reached by running months and months of normal raids.

So it all very academic.

You adquired an ilvl of 480 after what, 3-4 months? I dont think its fair to tell new players, "You need to play for 4 months in top lvl to even get in the new LFR" and you did EVERYTHING (except raiding) during all that time.

Also, you either had the best of lucks or you are lying about only doing two Sha's and one LFR run. I dont think its fair to ask for great luck.

[Sengiratolom]

Lol at saying 5 ppl is not massive but saying the soloing dailies are MMORPG content....

I dont see 5 mans as ultimate content, i see 5 mans as part of the progression content, but since progression moves on, so should 5 mans.

Dailies are cheap content made to make people happy with less. Ultra gated content, that can be made solo, heavily rewarded to make sure everyone does them, and people just accepts that Blizzard give less things to them...

Scenarios are not made for healers, nor are dailies, nor is Brawlers guild. They are instances, yes, but cheap ones.

Dailies are NOT more content than dungeons, they are less, thats why expansions launches with hundreds of new quests and like 5 more dungeons.

Quests are easy to develop content, cheap, stale and fast burn ones. Excess of repeatable quests is a bad thing.

The complaint was about dungeons, the 5man is not massive statement, and providing the scenario and raid=instances argument was to counteract the "no dungeon" claim.
And even tho you can solo the daylies (or atleased most of them, soloing the non crab caged animal daylies can be anoying), you are most likely doing them alongside more then 4 others (your faction or the oposing), and you spend more time doing them in total, then in a specific 5man (non challenge mode) to achieve the goal you are after.

Specific 5man (N/HC) purposes:
1) gear prep for raids/starting set for bgs (for which it'd be replaced with honor gear soon enough)
2) Achievements (done in 1-3 runs depending on achieve aimed for)
3) Vanity items (mounts/xmog items)
4) Lore provided in the dungeon (gotten from 1 clear)

Purpose 1 disapears as soon as you have raid/pvp items for the slots the 5man provides loot for, 2 is done within 45min (total) in said dungeon, 3 (mount) is non existant in MoP ones, xmog stuff depends on rng entirely. So lets be generous and asume the average use of a specific 5man dungeon= 45min of gameplay. (specific= you que for X, not as in vp/dungeon finder bags for queuig random) Creating this dungeon takes quite a bit longer then that.

Faction daylies purposes:
1) Coins
2) VP
3) Rep
4) Achievements

Purpose 1 wont disapear until the end of the xpac, as getting extra loot rolls will stay relevant (and possibly beyond if you want to keep spamming mount dropping MoP bosses every week in the hopes of said mount), 2 is in the same boat (if you are into PVE) getting 1k of it every week either to buy gear or to upgrade items you own is what many see as required, 3 will be the first to fade (depending on whcih faction it is/rep sources available this will last a few days or a month), 4 can last a long time (august celestial crane daylie achieve says hi) but is very rng dependant, one could be done in under 2 weeks or take 2 months to complete.

While it takes less time to create a quet then a dungeon, if generates equal or more playtime on its own. From a design perspective daylies are better spend development time. Not to mention that they have the same purpose for every single char, unlike 5man dungeons as by the time you are done with achieves in them, your alts dont need to do them again, and are most likely pulled into an alt raid right away, thus skipping the gear purpose of dungeons. I haven't started the daylie spam of pandaria on my alts yet as I had enough of it for now, but in due time I will have to redo them if i want rewards.

Lots of ppl, myself included, dislike doing daylies beyond the aformentioned goals. They dont become less or more content due to someone (dis)liking them tho.

daylies= repeatable content
regular quests= 1 time content

Thereby the comparison you made from 5mans to hundreds of quests is a bit of. You might aswell compare bike (reusable object) to hundreds of grains of rice (1 time useable objects) based on the fact that they are objects, but beyond that and being a (mostly) solid substance have nothing in comon.

[Pann]

..on the other hand..the more "options" are given the more people scream how they feel "forced" to use them all (on their main) and how "alt-unfriendly" the game has become

And you think being forced to run the same raids in LFR for months on end is alt friendly? By the time 5.3 is live we would have had the current raids that are supposed to remain relevant content for possibly over six months, I would rather have some new content that allows me skip them rather than running them over and over again.

[orderschvank]

i just find having to use lfr to gear up alts quite stupid.

3 weeks of lfr on my DK and hes gotten 2 things, wooot!!

and spending valor to upgrade my gear? ok so now i have to valor cap on all my toons which is another huge time investment.

it is not like i care to much, i play mostly on my main but now i just dont give a crap about alts because there is too much time needed to get them anywhere.

[tru]

no new dungeons is same bad idea when we were forced to do 2 troll 5mans yall remember that? this still isnt as bad but nothing new.... lol gg blizz

[hakujinbakasama]

You adquired an ilvl of 480 after what, 3-4 months? I dont think its fair to tell new players, "You need to play for 4 months in top lvl to even get in the new LFR" and you did EVERYTHING (except raiding) during all that time.

Also, you either had the best of lucks or you are lying about only doing two Sha's and one LFR run. I dont think its fair to ask for great luck.

This is the biggest issue. In the past it seemed as if there was a better transition from one tier to the next and yet this doesn't seem to be the case as far as 5.2 stands now. That being said, what's more annoying is that we the players SHOULD be raising those concerns now, even if Blizzard doesn't take heed from it. We shouldn't be doing it a month into 5.2 and then hearing about how they are "working" on solutions for 5.3.

Now granted this is just a fucking loop at this point, but it's overly fucking obnoxious that people are so "angry" about the idea of giving other players more options because "they" don't have any issues with the way things are currently. I can't help but realize that this is the same mentality that prevents Gay Marriage in the USA. (I'm American and still live in the USA no trolling)

[Kalcheus]

I would've been fine with a couple new heroic dungeons that take place on Thunder Isle that provide i463 gear. Just to add something new to the heroic queue.

EDIT: Regarding the next tier of LFR:
we're not sure what the minimum ilvl will be to get in. It may be i475, not i480. And I'm sure there will be VP rewards with a higher ilvl in 5.2. In other words, I'm not sure gearing to get into the new LFR will require that much more time than it did before.