LFR idea: loot based on performance

[Shennanigans]

I'm all for this, Blizzard should encourage people to play properly. I'm fairly tired that my Skada looks like this (or far worse) after every single LFR.



If players actually pulled their weight instead of playing with one hand while watching TV or shit things would go much faster for everyone.

LOL dude put on the big boy pants and run heroic or normal. 30-50 is quite sufficient for LFR.

[jmacphee9]

i really hope they dont do that...especially since there is so many ways around it and so hard to enforce. just an incredibly stupid idea.

the best fix to LFR would be for people to be able to skip on gear they already had, like a "pass to second highest roll"
some people, the few unselfish ones left, would take advantage of it and help other players out.

[Gurbz]

I'm all for this, Blizzard should encourage people to play properly. I'm fairly tired that my Skada looks like this (or far worse) after every single LFR.



If players actually pulled their weight instead of playing with one hand while watching TV or shit things would go much faster for everyone.

Topping meters does not, and never did, serve as an indication of player performance. All it does is show that you are good at getting the biggest number on the meter. This is even more true for tanks and healers. Good luck trying to find a quantifiable measure of performance for them. And no, threat generation and HPS will not work.

[Wildtree]

i really hope they dont do that...especially since there is so many ways around it and so hard to enforce. just an incredibly stupid idea.

Don't worry about that.. This is never gonna happen.
Blizzard gives pretty much a rats ass about recount and such. They even don't regard WoL as absolutely valid for class/spec evaluation. They go by their internal records.
They've changed the loot system for LFR purposely to individual loot distribution. It's no longer anyone's business what the other person gets.
There can be 25 items issued, or zero items issued, in theory.
Someone who wants performance loot can do so by using their individual loot handling in guild runs for normal or heroic.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 11:31 AM ----------

Topping meters does not, and never did, serve as an indication of player performance. All it does is show that you are good at getting the biggest number on the meter. This is even more true for tanks and healers. Good luck trying to find a quantifiable measure of performance for them. And no, threat generation and HPS will not work.

Yup..... Easy to bet the top of the meters, if one ignores all the other tasks, like switching to adds and what not.
Staying on the boss all the time, creates almost zero downtime, and bam.... up the meter, yet the performance itself was rather horrible.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 11:37 AM ----------

LOL dude put on the big boy pants and run heroic or normal. 30-50 is quite sufficient for LFR.

Yeah, especially since the OP didn't ask for high numbers.. he actually went ahead and tried to put a relation to it, by stating he wanted to have 80% performance according to item level.

So, with that scenario... someone doing 30k as a fresh toon that just gets into LFR now by reaching the iL requirement, may still do better than someone who does twice the amount, yet runs around fully decked in tier set bonus and with a much higher ilevel, because all they want is just one item.
Still the OP's idea just isn't good. it has just too much flaws. Number performance isn't a valid indicator.

[Surfd]

It's designed to be completed by clueless players, that don't work together. That's why it's so easy. You can call me clueless as much as you want, but it's none the less true. Otherwise they had made it harder. It really caters to the bad players.
The fact that it's so easy doesn't exclude better players, but it's not dependent on them either. 25 clueless people can complete it with just minor trouble now.
Being ungemmed doesn't nessesarely mean you're bad at pushing your gear to the limit. I didn't even say those min/max/gemming was bad players.
I just said that lfr is aimed for bad players, which it is, or it would be harder :P
The idea that they want everybody to see all the content doesn't in any way exclude that it's level is aimed for people that don't know how to play.

Again, no. LFR is not aimed at Bad players. The simple proof of this is that a full raid of actual BAD players would never be able to clear most LFR dungeons.

A full raid of Bad players, who did not know their rotations, did not know how to gem, or gear properly, or generally suck at their class would never make it past most of the mid to end range LFR Bosses. Feng the Accursed would likely stomp a pug full of bads, over and over and over again. Will of the Emperor would outright break raids. Same with Blade Lord, Garalon (even after the nerf), Princess, and Tsu-Lon.

If you honestly believe that that a raid that is 100% full of the people that are "bad" and not the actual Casuals that LFR is inteneded for could actually complete a full set of LFR dungeons, I would love to see you try it. It simply wouldnt happen. It would be a repeat of Day 1 raidfinder openings, with raids constantly wiping. Except it would never end, because the only way those bads actually complete Raidfinders is because the proper Casuals (who make up the majority of the raidfinder group) and the odd fully geared out full-time raider who is slumming in lfr, are carrying them through it.

If LFR was actually intended for "bads" as you claim, then it would literally be impossible to wipe in it, which is fairly obviously not the case.

[Wildtree]

Again, no. LFR is not aimed at Bad players. The simple proof of this is that a full raid of actual BAD players would never be able to clear most LFR dungeons.

Agreed with you, and I go even further.....

My personal experience is, that most runs that are painful and wipe fests are caused by so called "good" players. Self entitled, self evaluated hardcore and semi hardcore dumb heads that bitch about how easy lfr encounters are, compared to normal and heroic. yet they play sloppy enough according to the oh so easier content, and it results in wipes and even more bitching.
Most runs with people who are rather humble, and admit that they don't know the fight just yet, go likely smoother.....
Or..... the epeen tanks with all their "serious" raiding skills pull the boss, right after a wipe, during a refill. With people aren't even fully recovered, or even better, healers aren't in the boss room just yet.. DPS locked out..... and all those sweet little things that lead just to another wipe.
The BEST players are those that are truly skilled and putting in the efforts and a few seconds of time to help the newbies.

[Alhoon]

Rofl, Issue is that you can clear RF with 30k DPS average.

Yeah, pretty much. But how would you fix that? If they just upped the enrage/DPS requirement to match the item level you need to enter, it'd be chaos. As a single player, you can't do anything to the fact that most people don't want to put an effort at playing the game. Only Blizzard can change that if they want to.

Topping meters does not, and never did, serve as an indication of player performance. All it does is show that you are good at getting the biggest number on the meter. This is even more true for tanks and healers. Good luck trying to find a quantifiable measure of performance for them. And no, threat generation and HPS will not work.

Yup..... Easy to bet the top of the meters, if one ignores all the other tasks, like switching to adds and what not.
Staying on the boss all the time, creates almost zero downtime, and bam.... up the meter, yet the performance itself was rather horrible.

I agree both quotes, although it's not at all necessary to ignore DPS priorities to top the meters on LFR at the moment. My screenshot for example was from Sha of Fear, where I helped with every add. Personally I don't care for meters but I do care for my free time. When I try to put an effort and half of the raid is AFK auto-attacking the boss, I think it's not unjustified to call for some kind of method to discourage that.

There are likely multiple ways to solve this issue from DPS point of view without it leading to horrible zerg and drop in playing quality. Of course no system can be perfect, but I think there's room for huge improvements over the current system. Here's one example. Make priority targets take increased damage so that switching to correct priorities is always a DPS increase. Same could be implemented to non-damage priorities too, like interrupting giving you a buff which increases your damage for a short while and standing in fire giving DPS debuff etc. This way, your overall performance is the most important factor and from player point of view, their performance would be easy to quantify by looking at DPS meter. Or if this system would be flawed because it benefits more geared players, calculate performance in (DPS / ilvl) -kind of manner. Then this could be used to calculate a bonus to loot rolls.

I agree it's far more complicated to calculate tank/healer performance, but not impossible. Tanking could be a combination of 1) Damage mitigated 2) Self healing/absorbs 3) Doing what they're supposed to (ie. always getting hit by Garalon swipe or moving Protector out of healing ground effect). Healing could be simple HPS including absorbs, and DPS methods could be implemented to healers also. As in, standing in fire will result in healing reduction debuff, dispelling Tsulong would give buff etc. Again, it's not perfect but for LFR I think it'd be worlds better than the current horrendous system.

[Spl4sh3r]

This idea won't work. For example I do really good DPS in LFR and I am not even trying, but that is because it comes easy to me (not because others might be bad).

Maybe if there was a seperate version that based loot of performance, but that would just make the queues longer especially for tank/healers. So all in all this idea is bad for everyone.

[Googolplex]

An absolutely TERRIBLE idea. It pretty much goes against everything Blizzards wants to accomplish with the LFR system. I personally don't like the system at all, but that's another discussion entirely.

[Moarfail]

I raid with a semi-hardcore guild and I have several guild members who do LFR every week(I personally don't do LFR anymore, even on alts) who afk through the entire raid. Not joking, 100% afk through it. They never get kicked either, dunno how but yeah.

I'd be in favor of a system like this but it would be incredibly difficult to implement so will never come to pass.

/thread.

[GhostSkull]

For a while there we had moved beyond meters and I could go through an entire week of LFR without anyone complaining about suboptimal play or worrying out-loud about other people's loot. But this week I had some meter monkey's who posted recounts and accusations even though we were doing fine. (I was 6th in dps, in case you were wondering if I was a target.)

Two things will help: (1) Stop worrying about other people's loot. It is none of your business and you're just being a poor loser. (2) Don't pull out the meters until there is a clear problem.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 06:16 PM ----------

I raid with a semi-hardcore guild and I have several guild members who do LFR every week(I personally don't do LFR anymore, even on alts) who afk through the entire raid.

They're joking.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 06:21 PM ----------

LFR is a weekly loot pinata, it's not there to "see the content". Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.

You're wrong. Even hardcore raiders use LFR to become familiar with the raids before they tackle the harder modes. For casuals like me it is the way in which I'll see the content and we have fun doing it.

[Halicia]

You're wrong. Even hardcore raiders use LFR to become familiar with the raids before they tackle the harder modes.

Then how are they clearing Normals BEFORE LFR is accessible ?

I'm fine with an incentive-based system like this, but I'd focus on those binary mechanics that are already monitored and given advice by WoW. ie.. "Oh you stood in fire there, you should move out of it." and if none of the things fail, and dps/heals are ABOVE a certain point (ie... ranking doesnt matter if you're doing close to par dps.) then award a lesser charm or two. NOT MORE LOOT and DEFINITELY don't adjust the base loot drop chances.

[loki504]

In normal raids random loot is fine. As a group you always will get a few useful items and loot isn't the main reason you raid.

But in LFR random loot really kills the fun for me personally. Because let's face it, you do LFR for items. Hitting those loot pinatas isn't exactly thrilling.

My solution: make loot in LFR performance based. The chance you get an item on a boss increases if you perform well. For example: you are a dps and you do 80% of the dps possible with your gear (based on itemlevel) your chance to get an item is 80%

Pros:
- people will actually try during LFR raids to increase their chance to get loot
- LFR becomes more fun, since you want to maximize your dps, healing or tanking to get loot

good luck implenting that. its not the blizzard don't want a preform based change. its imposible to implant. look how hard it is for the game to see your specs and roles you can que up for.....

[Deleted]

They would have to write specific rules for each fight so that "performance" could be measured.

After all DPS is not just about mashing buttons and hitting top of meters right?

You would they have to calculate (somehow) fairly how gear factors in, what is the point in someone who turns up in full heroic gear for his VP getting gear when the person with 460 gear has no chance because he can't keep up, is that not the enitre point of LFR is to give the non raiders some way to advance there toon?

How would you asses Healer performance, man its bad enough that we have healing meters at all (don't get me wrong HPS is important for some fights) but it is the least important stat in almost all fights, the most important factor is did someone die who was not standing in fire? Can we really messure that?

Really struggling with how you would measure Tank performance even more.

So if you can solve all those problems, and then make it so it does not delay content in any way shape or form I might say it was a good idea, right now I am afraid it is not

[Deleted]

This wouldn't work at all. It can't take into account mitigating circumstances, and other people. For example, if I am a dps and I die due to nobody healing me, I get impacted on gear. If I am a tank and I die due to lack of healing, same thing. If I am a healer and I die to a mob on me, same scenario.

It can't work, and is a bad idea i'm afraid. The current system is fine in my opinion, as you can get extra rolls on the bosses -you- want, not the ones you don't.

[Psykotiq]

I'm not sure I would agree with this, how are we measuring performance? Someone who just hit the minimum ilvl for lfr is most likely going to be doing much less dps then someone who is in a 4set of regular tier gear. Even if they are similar in skill the better geared player should be out performing the lower geared player otherwise there is definitely an issue lol. So ow are we comparing performance? Also on certain fights where classes with really strong aoe damage are just hammering the dps chart how do you compare that to a class with relatively weak aoe dps? What happens when a healer pulls an "oops my bad" and you die? Or how about a tank that can't hold aggro well enough so you die? There are just way too many issues for this to really work. I like the idea and I'm tired of seeing a dps toon score lower then a healer on the charts but its just too subjective to work well.

[h4rr0d]

How would you encourage tanks and healers?

Overhealing for better gear?

Believe it or not, but tanks do damage, and their damage actually matters every now and then (not so much in LFR, but that's whole another point), and as for healers, the oposite, healing as efficiently as possible - ie. mixture of healing thourghtput and low overhealing

I'm not sure I would agree with this, how are we measuring performance? Someone who just hit the minimum ilvl for lfr is most likely going to be doing much less dps then someone who is in a 4set of regular tier gear. Even if they are similar in skill the better geared player should be out performing the lower geared player otherwise there is definitely an issue lol. So ow are we comparing performance? Also on certain fights where classes with really strong aoe damage are just hammering the dps chart how do you compare that to a class with relatively weak aoe dps? What happens when a healer pulls an "oops my bad" and you die? Or how about a tank that can't hold aggro well enough so you die? There are just way too many issues for this to really work. I like the idea and I'm tired of seeing a dps toon score lower then a healer on the charts but its just too subjective to work well.

It's not about absolute numbers, but about relative numbers - you have ilvl 470 and sim says you should be doing about x dps. You do 70% of that so you get loot chance increased by y.

[mvaliz]

So any guy in heroic gear gets a really damn good chance to get gear he doesn't need and take away the chance from players who do?

[mysticx]

Problem with rewarding people for "performance" is that "Good performance" is multi-faceted, there's simple DPS/HPS/TPS of course, avoiding bad stuff, doing other non-measurable stuff (Tank-switching at just the right time, proper dispelling), and of course doinng things outside your strict raid role to help the raid (Offtanking because a tank is kissing floor and is getting Battle-rezzed, off-healing), and on top of all those, you want the benchmarks to scale with gear, so overgeared people don't get all the benefits from this system just for being overgeared...

If that block of text seems complicated, imagine having to write code to actually take all that into account :P

[Squirl]

The flip side of rewarding people who play well is punishing those who play badly. This system accomplishes both, and that's not the point of LFR. You can beat every boss in LFR doing 50% of what you could. It's tuned that way for a reason.