Patch 5.2, disappointment for people returning to raids.

[Deleted]

hm i wanted to return to wow after a 9months break but i don´t see many guilds running the old raids just for me when they´re progressing in tot.
i also don´t have the intention to play this game for as long as i did previously due to work/family.
i just hope there are guilds that are willing to do that for me if not, i hope i have incredible luck in the first few weeks of lfr, which i never had during dragonsoul...
and don´t get me wrong i don´t want everything given to me without effort but it would be a thousand times more convinient if i could just do 5mans and jump right into the new tier. there´s more than enough reasons to go back doing old raids with achievements and mounts

[Trubo]

489 and 496 Valor Gear will likely be bumped down to Justice Points. That's more than enough to get caught up if you're behind.

Part of me doubts that as it would make it really easy to farm Sha Crystals from that gear.

[-KeenaM-]

That assumes that people have the reputation to buy them (unless it was really low) and also JP are really slow to gain as well as valor gear only covering a limited amount of slots.

Well, rep is easy to get if your consistent. And it with JP upgrades you will also bump it up to 502 or 509, it a matter of JP grind, which is the same as dungeons grinding just longer. and they're thinking of lowering the rep required per item

[Faroth]

LFR was created to let casuals experience the content.

Someone returning in 5.2 needs 5 mans to skip the LFR content.

You don't see a logic breakdown here?

[Nelrock]

When new raids come out, so does the zone wide debuff to the previous zone. So normals/heroics that were "hard" will become easier and allow for a quicker and more undergeared clear. I'm glad they are going back to old style of raiding where you actually had to progress through it to get to the end. Suck it up.

Be nice if they removed the lockout too. If guilds want to "catch up"...let em farm the old to get to the new. Once a week lockout and RNG...doesn't make nerfing them much of a "catch up" mechanism.
Or maybe...change them to a ZG style 3 day lockout.

[blackblade]

In 4.2 there wasn't much in terms of catchup outside of JP/VP changes and the Troll 5-mans.

And frankly, running nothing but those two instances over and over to get all your loot was a nightmare. Doubly so because inevitably someone in ZG would get all pissy if we didn't kill boss X first (and then would promptly leave if we did or did not kill boss X first.)

[OscaR]

LFR was created to let casuals experience the content.

Someone returning in 5.2 needs 5 mans to skip the LFR content.

You don't see a logic breakdown here?

you can still skip LFR without 5 mans.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 05:14 PM ----------

The system of 'the guild' catching a raider up in gear as opposed to the raider being responsible to get caught up was a failure, the system where the player could put in the time to get geared up is a better one. I suspect that there will be a way to do so fairly quickly, but if there isn't it will cause a lot of issues. I don't care if there are dungeons, just that there is a relatively quick way to get your gear caught up, and one that doesn't rely on LFR. I also don't give a damn that some people like the BC system better, it isn't going to be good for the current player base if they go back to something like that. The game needs to be developed for the people who still play not for the people who left.

Firstly, why is it a failure? Secondly, you ARE able to catch up doing things on your own, without LFR at that. You want gear but you don't want to do existing things that give you gear, then what? ("You" here doesn't imply you personally but in general).
There is still at least a month left, why not catch up now instead of complaining that there's no 5 mans to catch up later?

[Grocalis]

A few things that will likely happen.

Valor Gear will move down to Justice. A new set of Valor gear will be released.
A new set of crafted items will be added that can be made and sold on the AH.
Old raids will be nerfed to make them even easier then previous, making it more likely people will run them.
Old raids will still exist on the LFR, and with more people geared through the methods above, likely will be faster runs as people in some Throne of Thunder gear try to maximize valor gains or get allusive upgrades.

[anaxie]

uhhhh get last seasons honor pvp set. omgawd problem solved.

Why does everyone feel the need to do the latest tier even on alts. If your alt isn't doing lfr or raids now why should it instantly skip to ToT. why not keep a balanced of mixed raids on different alts to keep some variety in play so you don't burnout. Blizzard is doing this smart the rest of you are entitled whiners.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 05:18 PM ----------

A few things that will likely happen.

Valor Gear will move down to Justice. A new set of Valor gear will be released.
A new set of crafted items will be added that can be made and sold on the AH.
Old raids will be nerfed to make them even easier then previous, making it more likely people will run them.
Old raids will still exist on the LFR, and with more people geared through the methods above, likely will be faster runs as people in some Throne of Thunder gear try to maximize valor gains or get allusive upgrades.

Yeah no the only "valor set" you'll see released is the kirin tor/ sunreaver. If the current valor vendors are changed it will be an itemlevel bump on items meaning. You must do dallies, you cannot spend valor to upgrade items.

Best part if they crank the T14 debuff up to 30% instantly on 5.2 launch mix that with the 470 something 5man gear u get and can JP + think about it. Those raids that are already simple will be puggable simple for even 25 people meaning you could idk. Take some effort and be social on server to create a 25/10 to clear the content to gear up to current levels. This keeps the tier entirely relevent to new players/ alts and new players can see the entire expansion not just one dungeon.

[ganush]

LFR was created to let casuals experience the content.

Someone returning in 5.2 needs 5 mans to skip the LFR content.

You don't see a logic breakdown here?

...and if you want to return to the game and don't want to play as a total casual, then what? Not to mention that once 5.2 drops, LFR will be an even worse experience than it is right now. That's the game model you want to present to returning players? Oh, and being that I have yet to see one pug for even MSV on trade on my server, just where else do you expect low pop players to go to get caught up?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how having a catch up mechanism hurts any individual player or guild that doesn't need it, but I sure see how not having one hurts those who do. Any new raider will be expected to get caught up on the legendary questline, so t14 LFR still will have a purpose, it just shouldn't be the mechanism Blizzard uses to allow players to get into current content.

For the record, I have no plan on needing one personally, as I won't be changing mains. I no longer play my alts at all, because the MoP system of character progression makes gearing alts no fun. I can't stomach doing the daily grind again on alts and I don't enjoy LFR. That's fine, I could care less is they change that stuff as it's my choice. However, if a change interferes with my ability to raid successfully (which I can see not having a catch up mechanism doing), then that's the last straw for me. My raid group wouldn't survive the worse case scenario from such a change, and that concerns me.

As I said previously, I don't care if there are 5 mans (tho that would likely revive my alts for me). I care if people can catch up quickly. I have seen nothing from Blizzard stating their plans for this, so I'm not going to freak out worrying about it, but I am concerned.

[Gsara]

Even if there was new 5 mans, it's really doubtful that the loot would be more than 483 anyways. Most likely it would be 476ish so you would still need to do LFR anyways.
Before anyone says it, I also seriously doubt we will ever see 5 mans be the same ilvl as the current tier LFR, at most just under the previous tier.

[anaxie]

...and if you want to return to the game and don't want to play as a total casual, then what? Not to mention that once 5.2 drops, LFR will be an even worse experience than it is right now. That's the game model you want to present to returning players? Oh, and being that I have yet to see one pug for even MSV on trade on my server, just where else do you expect low pop players to go to get caught up?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how having a catch up mechanism hurts any individual player or guild that doesn't need it, but I sure see how not having one hurts those who do. Any new raider will be expected to get caught up on the legendary questline, so t14 LFR still will have a purpose, it just shouldn't be the mechanism Blizzard uses to allow players to get into current content.

For the record, I have no plan on needing one personally, as I won't be changing mains. I no longer play my alts at all, because the MoP system of character progression makes gearing alts no fun. I can't stomach doing the daily grind again on alts and I don't enjoy LFR. That's fine, I could care less is they change that stuff as it's my choice. However, if a change interferes with my ability to raid successfully (which I can see not having a catch up mechanism doing), then that's the last straw for me. My raid group wouldn't survive the worse case scenario from such a change, and that concerns me.

As I said previously, I don't care if there are 5 mans (tho that would likely revive my alts for me). I care if people can catch up quickly. I have seen nothing from Blizzard stating their plans for this, so I'm not going to freak out worrying about it, but I am concerned.

Why should blizzard cater to people who quit the game. You come back pickup where you left off just like every single other player. Nevermind that I'm pretty sure ToT will be perfectly doable in 5man + jp upgraded gear infact the +JP upgrade is prolly the ilvl needed to enter ToT LFR. So basically you don't need the new 5 mans and everyone is just extremely lazy.

You want better 5 man gear? blizzard gave it to you in 5.1. God forbid they have you play the game.

[Adlian]

I really hope Blizzard keep this design, reminds me of TBC where you had to progress trough heroics > Kara > SSC/TK and then BT or SWP. I really hope they keep it like this...

[skrump]

LFR is not the only way to get gear. There are 3 normals for you to do with your old guild. People starting earlier got better gear earlier, that's completely fair. You can't just have 5 mans every patch for people to catch up and make previous tier obsolete.

I think the point he is getting out is due to the way the restrictions on lfr and valor points work that it is not possible for him to come even remotely close to catching up with his friends no matter how hard he tries.

I can sympathize because I obtain on average 2 new items every 3 weeks (the lucky lfr or world boss drop and the 1 item I can accumulate the valor for)

Of course I could run heroics/scenarios nonstop and up the items purchased via valor to 2 or maybe even 3 items in a single month but the amount of time required to do so has dam near quadrupled since wrath/cata due to the massive nerf in the acquisition of valor points.

So the problem arises that it will take someone roughly 2-3 months of max level grinding before that toon is even remotely close to the same ilvl as their guildies are now thus by the time they reach that goal the guild has either progressed into heroics or the next tier of content thus screwing the guy playing catchup.

(furthermore) since 25m has pretty much been abandoned in favor of 10m it's not likely that a guild will sacrifice one of it's few precious raid spots in favor of helping a random guildy gear up simply because that guildy could be beneficial further on down the road.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

...and if you want to return to the game and don't want to play as a total casual, then what? Not to mention that once 5.2 drops, LFR will be an even worse experience than it is right now. That's the game model you want to present to returning players? Oh, and being that I have yet to see one pug for even MSV on trade on my server, just where else do you expect low pop players to go to get caught up?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how having a catch up mechanism hurts any individual player or guild that doesn't need it, but I sure see how not having one hurts those who do. Any new raider will be expected to get caught up on the legendary questline, so t14 LFR still will have a purpose, it just shouldn't be the mechanism Blizzard uses to allow players to get into current content.

For the record, I have no plan on needing one personally, as I won't be changing mains. I no longer play my alts at all, because the MoP system of character progression makes gearing alts no fun. I can't stomach doing the daily grind again on alts and I don't enjoy LFR. That's fine, I could care less is they change that stuff as it's my choice. However, if a change interferes with my ability to raid successfully (which I can see not having a catch up mechanism doing), then that's the last straw for me. My raid group wouldn't survive the worse case scenario from such a change, and that concerns me.

As I said previously, I don't care if there are 5 mans (tho that would likely revive my alts for me). I care if people can catch up quickly. I have seen nothing from Blizzard stating their plans for this, so I'm not going to freak out worrying about it, but I am concerned.

There are plenty of ways to catch up. There will be JP gear (they generally move VP gear to JP gear each tier), 28 LFR bosses, crafted gear, t14 normal/heroic raid gear (older raids go cross realm, like Firelands in 4.3, and there are tools to make finding groups much easier), 3 world bosses (Galleon will have a shortened respawn timer), season 13 honor gear, and, finally, VP/dailies. If you do all these things, you'll easily be able to raid ToT within a reasonable amount of time.

What they probably want to, and should, avoid is having some instanced content that serves as an easy catch up where someone run it repeatedly and get geared in 1 day, just so they can do the raid on LFR, say "I've done all the content now," and quit within a week. That was the Cata model, and we've seen how that works. Just because you can't gear up instantly doesn't mean there aren't still relatively efficient ways to gear up at all.

[OscaR]

I think the point he is getting out is due to the way the restrictions on lfr and valor points work that it is not possible for him to come even remotely close to catching up with his friends no matter how hard he tries.

I can sympathize because I obtain on average 2 new items every 3 weeks (the lucky lfr or world boss drop and the 1 item I can accumulate the valor for)

Of course I could run heroics/scenarios nonstop and up the items purchased via valor to 2 or maybe even 3 items in a single month but the amount of time required to do so has dam near quadrupled since wrath/cata due to the massive nerf in the acquisition of valor points.

So the problem arises that it will take someone roughly 2-3 months of max level grinding before that toon is even remotely close to the same ilvl as their guildies are now thus by the time they reach that goal the guild has either progressed into heroics or the next tier of content thus screwing the guy playing catchup.

(furthermore) since 25m has pretty much been abandoned in favor of 10m it's not likely that a guild will sacrifice one of it's few precious raid spots in favor of helping a random guildy gear up simply because that guildy could be beneficial further on down the road.

They are his friends, he's not just a random guildy. I don't think it's too much to ask for a little help from friends. 5.1, 5.2 dailies will give high ilv gear. It is not going to take 2-3 months of grinding that's for sure.

[Rhozul]

There were no new 5-mans in 4.2 (Firelands) either. I don't see how this is a disappointment, especially when 4.2 didn't have LFR, it didn't have Scenarios that dropped epics, and it didn't have upgradable gear.

[ganush]

Why should blizzard cater to people who quit the game. You come back pickup where you left off just like every single other player. Nevermind that I'm pretty sure ToT will be perfectly doable in 5man + jp upgraded gear infact the +JP upgrade is prolly the ilvl needed to enter ToT LFR. So basically you don't need the new 5 mans and everyone is just extremely lazy.

You want better 5 man gear? blizzard gave it to you in 5.1. God forbid they have you play the game.

Well, if I were in a high level guild on a vibrant server which had no problems recruiting when we needed raiders, that system works great. However, the guilds who are being recruited from or low pop guilds are going to find themselves gearing people up rather than raiding new content. The last thing the game needs is a system of feeder guilds that get stuck running in place like happened in BC. How is it a good system to force 8 or 9 players to run content they are done with to be able to have success in the content they want to run? I will not want to be running t14 in t15, but it's very possible that is what will happen if players can't get geared up for current content on their own in a relatively short period of time. It can require a time commitment, but it won't work well if you have to do it through the RNG laden, weekly lockout LFR system.

I will say one more time, I don't care if the catch up mechanism to get into current content is dungeons, it just has to exist somehow. There is enough VP gear to achieve this if they change it to JP and take the rep requirements away, but if they don't do that, then it's going to be a problem.

[Littleraven]

funny....people tout BC as "THE BEST EXPANSION EVAR!" but when blizzard actually tries to make some aspects of the game like they were back then to please people. people STILL cry about it. not sure where everyone gets off thinking that blizzard has always added new 5 mans with the first raid of a new tier. they dont need to add new 5 mans every time a new raid comes out.

dont get me wrong, it would be pretty cool to get 5 mans themed around the new raid (the icc 5 mans were awesome) but people just got used to using them as a gear catch up mechanic to skip content.

the end of cataclysm was and wrath to a lesser extent were boring because of this. when the only thing you could really do was run DS and the new HoT 5 mans people cried that there wasnt anything to do. people complained that the older raids became obsolete because why would i run that when i can just get equal to better gear from a 5 man?

i dont like that thinking. sure...its convenient as hell but that doesnt make for a fun game where you can skip everything and expect to get the best rewards.

[NightZero88]

I am still waiting for someone to give me a reasonable reason why new heroics that give gear slightly below or equivalent to this tiers LFR next tier is bad. Please, explain what the downside to it is.

Positives: 1. Lets people switch to alts or different specs easily
2. Doesn't hurt anyone currently raiding
3. Lets new players easily jump into CURRENT content instead of having them replay old content
4. Lets small guilds on low pop servers easily replace people who may have quit and test them out without having to go through a painful gearing up process which will likely cost them existing raiders (this happened to us in DS, we geared up a healer, he left, geared up a second healer, he left, geared up a third healer, he left. Then we stopped raiding for 3 months).

Downsides: None

Honestly I'm not sure how you people can say the below is a good policy (which is exactly what your'e saying by the way)

New player: Hi, I'm a new player, I just hit 90 and am interested in raiding!
Long time player: Oh, well go try and get some people together to do the last tier to gear up and then we'll see how you do.
New player: Last tier? Isn't that 6+ months old?
Long time player: It sure is it but we had to do it so you should too.
New player: Yeah, I think I'll go play a different game.