Patch 5.2, disappointment for people returning to raids.

[Dero]

Just 1 thing, you use Firelands as an example a few times, The troll dungeons were added a patch before Firelands and were not for catching up gear wise for Firelands, the ilvl of loot there was 353, lower than the tier 11 normal gear, much like how the lfr gear is lower than Normal mode gear now.

Valor gear will also be changed to Justice points most likely, Sure I also read somewhere about the way we earn Justice being changed, then there's also a new world boss/'s?

Then there's the whole legendary quest line design that doesn't want to make previous tier's obsolete each patch, if you want to re roll then sure, but your going to want to do previous tier stuff first for a couple of weeks to get the quests out the way so you'll have a chance at the legendary in the last tier.

im just gonna reply on your ignorance 4.1 was created to help bridge the gap between tier 11 and heroics for the casuals.

Tier 13 dungeons were equivalent to firelands.

[cFortyfive]

Way to completely take something out of context, apply a generalisation and then try and insult someone instead of using constructive comments. >.>"

So the only constructive comment you accept is choo choo yeah let's hop all onto the 470 epic 5 man dungeon train ? Or wouldn't that be enough either and it should rather be 476 or 479 ? Valor gear as was stated here a couple times will be available for justice points. Reputation requirements will almost certainly be lowered or reputation acquirement sped up. For the rest - what do you have your raid group for ? Someone comes back who was a good player of course you will help him gear up. Same goes for someone who rerolls and a new player doesn't necessarily need to push the latest content three days after he started playing. I might be willing to see the issue if this discussion would come up for "5.3" and there would be no new valor gear.

What is wrong with trying t14 content first then doing t15 raid? The more bosses to do the more fun! Your suggestion will desert all t14 raids, it will do way more harm than good. Its like throwing all 16 t14 bosses instantly into garbage even for newcomers.

Edit: TBC mode with all those attunement was extreme, just some gear requirement from previous tier can save older raids of the active expansion.

This will never work again. People are just too dependent on having the latest gear.

[Deleted]

High end progression guilds? I am pretty sure this will affect anyone wanting to participate in the new content when it comes out. High end guilds will clear this on normal within 1 - 2 weeks of it coming out. We are talking about people being geared enough to attempt it regardless of their guild level.

If they do not have the gear for it, they have not ran normal mode entrance tier raids for long enough. Linear progression is good. I also hope they do not add any upgrades for some item slots so that we have to go to the earlier tier for bis gear aswell. less content =/= more content.

[Spotnick]

You realize you will have to do the tier 14 raids anyways to get sigils and sha-touched weapons anyways, right?

It will be opened to cross-realm raiding, you'll easily find a group on openraid for that to help you gear up and not force guildees to carry you.

But knowing blizzard, there will be a way to catch up.

[blargh312]

This will never work again. People are just too dependent on having the latest gear.

It's pretty sad too. I remember seeing people doing Kara runs in trade right up until Wrath launched. After that you'd never see people doing first tier raids except for achievements or transmog gear.

[Synstir]

I hope they don't bump any gear down to jp.

Gear up though LFR. After all, the LFR wasn't meant just for the hardcore no-lifers who play wow all the time, everyone including the casual players deserves to play though it. In fact, it would be awesome if you had to grind though all available LFR tiers before being raid-ready. This way you would see all of the amazing content Blizzard rolled out for you over the course of the expansion.

It could also mean that a lot of players will not be able to see the current content but will be forced to run the previous patches.
I don't think anyone would be happy when by the time they are ready for 5.2, 5.3 is hitting the live servers.

Having one shot at one boss for a week will not help in gearing for current patch-content... also think what this will mean for queue-times of the new content.

[Deleted]

Why do you have to start raiding from 5.2 raid and skip current tier? it's really fun and you can gear up your guild in like a month or so.

[Deleted]

It could also mean that a lot of players will not be able to see the current content but will be forced to run the previous patches.
I don't think anyone would be happy when by the time they are ready for 5.2, 5.3 is hitting the live servers.

Having one shot at one boss for a week will not help in gearing for current patch-content... also think what this will mean for queue-times of the new content.

Why would they not be happy? I fail to see any logical issue here. If people want to see the content they can run LFR, simple. People don't need to see the current content when it is released. It's something to work towards and gives players and incentive to carry on playing instead of quitting the moment they see the final boss and waiting and moaning that there is nothing to do anymore.

[HamSandwichFace]

My alt (see Nymsee in signature) has been level 90 now for 17 days. I hit 90 on 11th December (a tuesday so didn't do LFR that reset). I got my "Mystically Epic" achievement on the 20th December. As of 28th (and still need to do all LFRs/raids this week) my Shaman is at 487 item level. She has 1 LFR item (sad face right???).

It's not even hard to gear up.

Also, +1 to the guy who mentioned Sha-touched weapons + legendary gem.

[Tsuna]

If your friends want to raid together what does it matter if you can't skip a tier? Just clear one, then move on to the next one. Personally I feel the free loot festival disaster that came out of Wrath 5 mans skyrocketed the population of dreadful players in full epic gear which makes lfr horrendous, filtering people in guild recruitment nigh impossible through anything short of letting them into a raid and seeing them perform under pressure, and fostering a ridiculous culture of entitlement to being epic without effort.

Gearing in Pandaria is not terribly complicated. Run dungeons for a day, boom 463 ilvl (even higher with the upgrade shop), craft some gear 496 using blood spirits (what is gold dailycraft?), buy some valor gear with the points earned running dungeons, hit up lfr. Heck some of the rep factions hand out raid level epics for reaching exalted and the sha of please beat my ___ for free loot has tier sets, and you can roll TWICE on that with the charms of fortune, a luxury compared to its predecessors VoA and BH.

Blizzard makes dungeons because they fit with the world design and are relevant to the overall plot of the expansion. If they add them, great as long as it's interesting or challenging. If not, that's fine too. They have no reason to half ass some weaksauce instances with gear on par of the prior RAID just because some players are behind the curve in raiding. End of the day, it's their call, if they relent and hand out the epics fine, but I feel the people desperate for that kind of gear are missing the point of raiding in general.

TLDR: I hate to call out well written arguments but this whole thing is utter nonsense and here are my reasons.
1: Gearing in MoP IS NOT THAT HARD.
2: I have zero interest in even more heroics that do naught but produce skilless raiders in epics to flood the servers who drag pug raids to their death hiding behind a mask of ilvl.
3: If your guildies wanted YOU to raid with them, they should be glad to raid the prior content in order to gear for the newest. If that isn't the case, it wasn't YOU they were looking for...

[Pull My Finger]

They really should bump down the valor gear to justice in 5.2. I'm hardly doing any 5 mans in MoP because there's just no point to it. Too little valor to be worth it - I'm not one of the guys who easily do 30 dungeon runs in a week, just don't have the time. It's just not enough carrot on that stick this time around.

If they made the current valor gear available for justice, there would be a reason to do dungeons. It would something that's in some sort of realistic reach. The way valor is handled right now, I would be able to get a piece every two months or something. At that rate, you might as well leave it be - what I basically did.

[Deleted]

This is a very tricky balance, and also sums up the problem with WoW in general.

You can not and never will keep everyone happy.

The exact thing you want to implement was the exact same thing that caused forum posts exactly like yours in cata but moaning about it but from the other side of the argument, "Why should I stay subbed when I can just sub at launch of 4.3 run 20 5 mans in 5 hours and be the same iLvl of the people who raided all of 4.2 and stayed subbed for 6 months"

I am 100% convinced it is impossible to keep everyone happy.

I am also 100% convinced that blizzard will (hopefully) never ever implement a tier of 5 mans that completely obliterates gear from the previous raiding tier, this makes people play for a week gear up do LFR and then unsub.

They want people to gear up over time in preparation for the next tier (like it used to be).

I do think there will be some changes though, couple of examples.

1) Will they up the rewards from the scenarios cache as a way of catching up a bit (476 blues and 483 epics maybe?) this would be probably quite easy to implement as they stats are randomly generated.

2) Will there be a new crafted blue PvP set (476 blues maybe?) 476 blue PvP gear is very good for PvE these days as the PvP stats are "free" when you look at iLvl.

3) Will there be new crafted epics or blues?

4) There will defo be new Valor Point gear.

I am sure there are other ways as well.

I don't think many people would complain at these option and might help give people give a "leg up".

Your post goes very much out of its way to just ignore the many many many ways of getting gear just by saying for example "Casuals can't do Dailies", Really? Casuals are who Dailies are aimed at surely?

Remember this is very early on in the patch cycle so not everything is on PTR yet.

So as always I think blizzard will try and balance it to "try" and keep everyone happy but everyone knows whatever they do there will be posts moaning about it.

[Deleted]

im just gonna reply on your ignorance 4.1 was created to help bridge the gap between tier 11 and heroics for the casuals.

Tier 13 dungeons were equivalent to firelands.

Except the OP was talking about gearing up in dungeons to tank Firelands, not Dragon Soul, My point made complete sense..

[Ninotchka]

Scenarios already have a chance to drop 476 purples; I've gotten two on my alt. I suspect that they'll inch up the scenario rewards with each patch. And scenarios are so easy as long as you're not dual specced healer/healer.

Your original post probably sounded very logical and rational in your mind, but it reads just a little bit whiny. We have only just seen the very first PTR build. We haven't yet confirmed the item levels for the new raid. We haven't seen any BoE's datamined. We don't know what new craftables are coming in. We don't know if there are new quest rewards.

So assuming that the 'only' logical way a person starting from dungeon blues could gear up for the raids is by running hypothetical new 5-mans is preposterous, as other people in this thread have pointed out. Blizzard has already made it easy to gear up without setting foot in a normal mode raid. There are a number of alternate ways they can make gear available to you without adding new 5-mans.

I'm fairly sure you didn't intend your original post to read the way that many of us have interpreted it. However, I believe that calling out for more 5-mans before we've seen the entire plan for valor and justice items, craftables, BoEs and gear drops from scenarios is premature.

And discounting craftables and BoEs because of the cost... if your guild isn't willing to help you with crafting upgrades to bring you to the right item level, I believe they are not serious about wanting you to raid with them. Likewise, if they're not willing to bring you along on farm content. An active raiding guild should have the resources to get you at least one 496 item, if not both.

[eschatological]

Sometimes I wonder if Blizz employees test opinions on upcoming changes by making troll bait posts on MMO-C.

This is a far better way to do this than by instantly grinding 3 heroics over and over again to get gear equivalent to the previous tier. It will keep old tiers relevant and part of the overarching story.

We ran Firelands for 10 weeks after DS came out to finish the last of our legendaries. It's something organized guilds can do easily. We could do it in less than an hour, 7/7H. That's the beauty of a gear progression-based game - old bosses fall over, even 1 tier later.

[kamuimac]

489 and 496 Valor Gear will likely be bumped down to Justice Points. That's more than enough to get caught up if you're behind.

i choose this quote cause it was first.

Does onyone who says so posses any proff of this ? any blue or q&a quote ? and what if this doesn't happen ?

It will be opened to cross-realm raiding, you'll easily find a group on openraid for that to help you gear up and not force guildees to carry you.

cant wait for all those "were making t14 crz run - all sha touched weapons reserved min itlv 500"

[Anjerith]

Requiring you to run LFR of prior tiers in order to gear for raids is far better than just tossing gear at your characters. Why?

Very simple. Why would I be interested in getting someone who hasn't played the game in years, or even Ever, to run current content? They need to invest time in learning/relearning their character. While not the *greatest* way to teach you how to play, LFR is better than "I ran some Heroics and did some dailies for two days, I am READY TO RAID!".

[grexly75]

I addressed this point quite clearly. A player shouldn't have to expect a guild to go back to old instances just to get a "decent ilvl" to attempt the new content. I am not asking for 5 man dungeons to make the gear obsolete but merely help bridge the game. ilvl 485 gear would not make things obsolete but would mean that they are only 5-10 ilvls behind what the new normal raid will probably be set at.

Ahh it would though, remember what happened when Blizz released the Hour of Twilight heroics, pretty much made normal Firelands and even Molten Front gear obsolete. And made all dungeons like deadmines, the redone troll ones and so on obsolete as well. Not many folks did the old ones all they did was do the three hour of twilight ones over and over once they got the required ilvl which was not hard to do.

And ilvl 485 really? that would pretty much make all the current LFR gear obsolete and to a smaller extent make the 489 ilvl gear obsolete too. And would also make all the current MoP dungeons obsolete as everyone would only do those new ones pretty much what they did near the end of Cata, a mistake I hope they don't repeat.

I read a blue post somewhere on this subject and they said they didn't want to repeat the mistakes they made with the Hour of Twilight heroics dungeons or something like that.

[Deleted]

There are also crafted gear.

new players and some ppl that play for xx year can pay prices like 50k + for some item you replace 1 raid later

[Iso]

You can get full 471 by doing 5 mans alone now, add some LFR, rep rewards and other 496 valor, with upgrades ontop, if that's not enough justice will probably get you the current valor gear when 5.2 hits the scene.