Come on, you can't use "The best deal would've been to not be murdered in the first place" as an argument. This is a world in war; death IS going to happen, casualties are to be expected.
And we don't exactly know how the afterlife works on the warcraftverse. Did the souls of the risen even got to "heaven" before being ressurected? Tauren mention that proper rituals must be performed for the soul to me on; neither we know the fate of the forsaken put to true death, we only know that Sylvanas is cut from the afterlife, it hasn't been stated for the rest.
Above all, "deal" means an arrangement or compromise given certain circumstances, looking to obtain the best possible outcome. T
Of what area? The whole of Lordaeron? No, like I said before, not everything there belongs to them. Eastern Plaguelands doesn't belong to them. Western Plaguelands doesn't belong to them. And before they slaughtered the people in Hillsbrad, Hillsbrad didn't belong to them. Just because the king is dead and they go into the sewers of the capital city doesn't mean that the whole of Lordaeron suddenly belongs to them.
If the kingdom of Lordaeron doesn't exist anymore and their laws don't apply,then they can't say it is rightfully theirs, because it's their home. It is their land because they have a military presence there, and it remains so until somebody else drives them from that land.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1415202640
He's a death knight, which makes him undead. Oh I accept that a punishment for his actions is reasonable. But what Sylvanas does is brainwashing him.
---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:43 AM ----------
Punishment, to me, doesn't mean brainwashing.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.
That doesn't mean brainwashing. Maybe she just beat it out of him.
Dude what kind of logic is that. Humans are creating an army by training their people. Like every other normal race. Like orcs, tauren, elves, dwarves, they procreate, raise their young and train them.
The Lich King, just like Sylvanas, killed people and brought them back as undead. It makes sense that Sylvanas does that, since undead can't procreate, but it's still the same thing the Lich King did.
Even if Sylvanas has different plans, it doesn't change that when she's killing people and raising them into undeath she's doing what the Lich King did.
What's wrong with it? Here, an Alliance invading force that seeked to not only avenge Bolvar, but also seize the opportunity granted by civil war in UC to conquer it for the Alliance. Or you didn't do this event?
Did you forget that it wasn't their idea at all? Blame Garrosh for Gilneas.
As always, pure-hearted paladins of Good never think of the problem from the Forsaken POV. They think that the only right course of action for an undead nation is to bury themselves and quietly rot.
Last edited by Haven; 2012-12-31 at 01:27 AM.
Honestly are you just ignoring everything? For the thousandth time, they create an army by killing people and forcing them into undeath. So there was no evil in the events of WC3 either? When the Scourge turned the humans of Lordaeron into undead through the plague? That act alone was not evil in any way?
I never said the Forsaken are 100% like the Scourge. And what does Godwin's law have to do with it. This is not about Nazis.
Wow. You really are good at sidestepping obvious truths. The Lich King was an undead king who created an army of undead mindslaves with the intention of making every living sentient being die and join his ranks. I can't even believe you're being serious, not a turn of phrase I honestly think you're joking, that you think The Lich King was no different than any other conqueror.
Garrosh accused Sylvanus of using a biological weapon to eradicate life from her enemies and the surrounding land they inhabited so she could raise more and more undead troops to continue the pattern.
Do you know what happens when a living army finished a war? They settle back into society and life goes on. Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
Soothing Mist:"Healing them for a minor amount every 0.5 sec, until you take any other action."
Jade Serpent Statue: "The statue will also begin casting Soothing Mist on your target. healing for 50% as much as yours. "
[What's half of minor?]
"Statue casts Soothing Mist at a nearby ally for toddler healing."
...and then Garrosh blew Theramore with his honorful and clean manabomb.
So what? Undeath goes on. Or do you imply that Sylvanas wants to destroy all life in the world? Proof please.Do you know what happens when a living army finished a war? They settle back into society and life goes on. Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
Forsaken and humans have as much "right" to the land as murlocs.
Rights dont mean jack shit. Its a made up concept. Its an idea. Rights dont do anything.
No army has ever been defeated because the other side proclaimed their rights
The only right that matters is the right of power and strength
---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 05:36 AM ----------
Is undeath not a form of life?
Or are you saying the Forsaken want to kill themsleves
We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"
This is off-topic to the current conversation, but not completely to the Forsaken: Could Kel'thuzad come and join the Forsaken? We didn't destroy his phylactery and he was such an awesome character that saw so little love in WoW. I feel like he would add some more badassery to the Forsaken.
Sylvanas had Varimatharas and I feel now that he's gone, we need a replacement. Sylvanas could keep his phylactery to control him like Thassarian did with that lich in the Borean Tundra.
To which Sylvanas all to happily took command of. On top of this they had no qualms about trying to kill everybody they came in contact with and as we're aware Sylvanas wanted to kill everyone. Then on top of this we have Southshore which is clearly Forsaken work.Then we have them enslaving others despite the fact they as a race love to comment on free will, which I call hypocrisy.
I do appreciate the Forsaken have a POV. However just because they have an opinion and/or POV doesn't make it right. I certainly don't think their POV and goals benefit anybody but themselves.
I totally agree with that. That's why I find it hypocritical of the Forsaken to claim that the land is rightfully theirs, because they used to own it in life, and then go to Gilneas and Hillsbrad and try to take the land away from the people living there. If they don't respect the right of other people to their land, why should people respect theirs. They can't complain about the Alliance attacking their land, if they are doing the same thing to other people.
They weren't at war with Gilneas until they attacked them. Gilneas was not part of the Alliance at that point. They were also attacking civilians and farmers.
Anyway, it seems like you are arguing that the Scourge isn't exactly the same as the Forsaken, which is compeltely pointless, because in the post before that I said that they are not 100% the same. That doesn't change that those 2 factions share the habit of killing people and turning them into undead.
Are you saying it's ok for the Forsaken, because they are at war with someone? Then it's ok for the Scourge as well, as long as they declare a war on the living.
Save me and yourself a lot of time by not telling me again that the Scourge and the Forsaken pursue different goals. It's fucking pointless. Everybody knows that and I have no idea what point you're trying to prove.
As for Godwin's law, it says that every discussion at some point will make some comparison to the Nazis. What the fuck does that have to do with the Scourge? Are you saying that every discussion in a WoW forum will at some point make a comparison to the Scourge? Why because the Forsaken and the Scourge share a commonality? Is this Kangodo's law? In that case, no. I don't think that every discussion in a WoW forum will at some point make a comparison to the Scourge. Only if there is something that is comparable to what the Scourge did. Like with the Forsaken and what they're in doing in raising people into undeath.
Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2012-12-31 at 10:08 AM.
thats just how people work eh?
People care more about their own needs and rights more so than other people's rights and needs. Even more so if those other people are considered your enemies.
---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 10:15 AM ----------
thats the thing bout Forsaken.
Them just being a race of undead gives them a very different vibe and perspective on things
We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"
I guess in the same way the humans and night elves shouldn't have been living on orc land before the orcs got there.
It's really their own fault for being in the way. They should've expected them to attack and voluntarily moved out of the way.
Yeah you basically gave up any serious discussion at this point, right?
Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2012-12-31 at 10:33 AM.
If the Scourge raise people into undeath and the Forsaken raise people into undeath, then it's perfectly reasonable to compare them to each other. No they aren't 100% the same. Yet you can compare them to each other. How could it possibly be 100% the same? And they share more than just one trait.
---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 02:48 PM ----------
I just remembered that bit from Drek'thar in Hillsbrad
Drek'Thar says: So you have come seeking our aid?
Drek'Thar coughs.
Drek'Thar says: I... *cough* I have been alive for a very long time. In that time I have seen and done terrible things.
Drek'Thar says: Things that still keep me awake at nights.
Drek'Thar says: But these terrible things that I have done and the people that I have harmed - I know them... I face them... and I feel remorse for them.
Drek'Thar says: But the Forsaken. *cough* What do they feel?
Drek'Thar says: They ravage the land and destroy everything that they touch. How many lives have been lost to their vile poisons?
Drek'Thar says: How many innocents have fallen before the Forsaken war machine?
Drek'Thar says: Countless... countless lives... *cough*
Drek'Thar says: Yes... I have done terrible things, but nothing could ever be as terrible as lending aid to the Forsaken.
Drek'Thar says: You go back to that spineless orc who would not come see me and you tell him that the Frostwolf clan will not aid the Forsaken. Not now, not ever!
Drek'Thar says: BEGONE!