Sandbox vs Themepark

[Perkunas]

Everybody claims to want a sandbox but very few are actually willing to suffer them. I'd venture something like 1/3 of accounts in EVE are multi-boxers. Give me a themepark with constant content injections and I'm set.

[Golden]

I bet if someone did another poll about World PvP vs. Structured PvP you would get about the same results as Sandbox vs. Themepark.

So far every sandbox MMO I have played has degenerated down into really evil activities. Often, it's a lot easier to ambush and rob "heroes" along the roadside than it is to go fight monsters, etc. People form up into big groups that try to force their collective will on the rest of the player base...not my idea of a good time.

[namelessone]

I love sandbox games from the game design perspective, but I hate playing them.

[Deleted]

As a writer I can appreciate the theme park MMO; I get wanting players to be involved in the story. On the other hand, freedom to go and explore and do what I want has always driven me in games - finding waist-high walls can be an immersion-killer - so I think that making a hybrid, a thematic sandbox as it were, is ideal.

The problem comes along when trying to identify the "everything" that people can do. Technical limitations aside, "everything" is extraordinarily vague. How microscopically do you want players to be able to affect the environment? Do you have them capable of leveling forests or chipping down mountains?

Will players reject a one-faction leadership style? Is multi-faction (WoW/EQII) played out? Do you have player-based factions (EVE)? How does one handle a morality system? Do you even want a morality system? What happens when your players decide to be jackasses? Do you want them capable of trashing towns and completely blocking other players from going about their own way? Do you tout "free-will" as a pro or a con? It was this line of questioning that prompted my "PVP in MMOs?" question.

But I think a hybrid could work. Give the players a story, but make the story rely on them working as a whole - not as heroes necessarily - but as a community of people working towards a goal. At least, that's the basis for what I'm working on. Time will tell if it's even worth pursuing.

Why cant everything be allowed? Obviously there are technical limitations so you cant level mountains, at least not yet but players being jackasses is easy to balance. If a newbie with nothing to lose starts killing NPCs in a town, the guards would kill them fast before they do any harm. I guess they might technically murder a shopkeeper before caught but that could be fixed by implementing high penalties for murder and making some NPCs in towns essential like in Skyrim.

A high level character on the other hand would have too much to lose to go crazy in a town like that. If someone does attack guards or other players, they would be marked as a criminal, giving everyone a free reign to kill them and take their stuff. Organized city raids can still happen yes but it happens in other MMOs as well. Just making needed NPC's essential and maybe add some semi needed ones that can be killed but if you do, the random name generator would just make up a name and replace them with their son, sister, nephew or whatever the next day.

[Perkunas]

I love sandbox games from the game design perspective, but I hate playing them.

I think this is probably the most honest answer in this thread.

[Mekanikos]

Why cant everything be allowed? Obviously there are technical limitations so you cant level mountains, at least not yet but players being jackasses is easy to balance. If a newbie with nothing to lose starts killing NPCs in a town, the guards would kill them fast before they do any harm. I guess they might technically murder a shopkeeper before caught but that could be fixed by implementing high penalties for murder and making some NPCs in towns essential like in Skyrim.

A high level character on the other hand would have too much to lose to go crazy in a town like that. If someone does attack guards or other players, they would be marked as a criminal, giving everyone a free reign to kill them and take their stuff. Organized city raids can still happen yes but it happens in other MMOs as well. Just making needed NPC's essential and maybe add some semi needed ones that can be killed but if you do, the random name generator would just make up a name and replace them with their son, sister, nephew or whatever the next day.

This isn't an attack, by the by.

For every aspect of "everything" that I can think of, someone else will come along and abuse it. I hadn't even thought of making NPCs attackable; it just wasn't the way I was going with that, but you've reminded me that there are people who will want to do that as part of their 'freedom'. From murdering shopkeeps to keeping players from their housing, at what point does the game designer have to come down and say "No, you can't do that"?

In regards to the newbies murdering shopkeepers: let's say a high level player gets bored and makes an alt and goes about murdering people or just making a mess of things and decides that's he's now bored of that and logs out and deletes that alt. Short of doing something to the account he's playing under, that player received absolutely no repercussions for his actions. Yes, we've all done it in Skyrim - mass murdering spree just to see what happens - but that's a single player RPG. We reload and continue on. It paves the way to anarchy if people cannot be held accountable for what they've done.

And just thinking about how rogues, or the rogue archetype rather, lives in the shadows and thrives on thieving; thieving from NPCs is fine and dandy, often-used in RPGs like Baldur's Gate, EQ, and WoW. What happens if that veil is lifted and PCs can pickpocket other PCs? Truly good rogues who can stay in the shadows and take your entire inventory without you being any wiser would be broken. Ok, say they can only pickpocket coins. Well, how much? All of what you carry? 50%? 10%? You'd be wise not to leave your house carrying coins. And houses; can players break into other player's housing and rob them blind? How often can this pickpocketing occur? Once per PC? Once a day?

As I said in the opening line, "everything" cannot be allowed because it will be abused, which is why I'm going to the heavy-handed and extreme end of my scenarios.

[Deleted]

This isn't an attack, by the by.

For every aspect of "everything" that I can think of, someone else will come along and abuse it. I hadn't even thought of making NPCs attackable; it just wasn't the way I was going with that, but you've reminded me that there are people who will want to do that as part of their 'freedom'. From murdering shopkeeps to keeping players from their housing, at what point does the game designer have to come down and say "No, you can't do that"?

In regards to the newbies murdering shopkeepers: let's say a high level player gets bored and makes an alt and goes about murdering people or just making a mess of things and decides that's he's now bored of that and logs out and deletes that alt. Short of doing something to the account he's playing under, that player received absolutely no repercussions for his actions. Yes, we've all done it in Skyrim - mass murdering spree just to see what happens - but that's a single player RPG. We reload and continue on. It paves the way to anarchy if people cannot be held accountable for what they've done.

And just thinking about how rogues, or the rogue archetype rather, lives in the shadows and thrives on thieving; thieving from NPCs is fine and dandy, often-used in RPGs like Baldur's Gate, EQ, and WoW. What happens if that veil is lifted and PCs can pickpocket other PCs? Truly good rogues who can stay in the shadows and take your entire inventory without you being any wiser would be broken. Ok, say they can only pickpocket coins. Well, how much? All of what you carry? 50%? 10%? You'd be wise not to leave your house carrying coins. And houses; can players break into other player's housing and rob them blind? How often can this pickpocketing occur? Once per PC? Once a day?

As I said in the opening line, "everything" cannot be allowed because it will be abused, which is why I'm going to the heavy-handed and extreme end of my scenarios.

Didn't I just say you cant do that on an alt? In Skyrim you can go on a murder spree on high level character because you can just reload but in a MMO, you cant. But lets take a game like Skyrim and make it into a MMO without changing anything else. A bored high level making an alt just to see what happens when you attack a shopkeeper? Well, here's whats going to happen.. the attack takes away a tiny fraction of the shopkeepers health, the shopkeeper runs out, calls a guard and you get fined or killed. Youd need to have at least a decent weapon and some levels to do that. So if some bored high level thinks its a great way to spend 10+ hours leveling up an alt just to kill one shopkeeper? Well, by all means.. besides, in a truly sandbox games, players can set up their own shops, stalls etc. so it's not like anyone would miss that shopkeeper till it gets replaced.

Everything actually can be allowed. Even pickpocketing players. Even Skyrim has that more or less under control. You can easily pickpocket 10 coins and even 100 or 1000 with greater skill but with valuable items the chance will go down to <1%. Let's say Im carrying a million gold and am worried about thieves. I could just buy a *insert RP name here* super secure coin purse and good luck thieves. There's like 0.000001% chance to steal it and if they fail, they can be attacked and will be attacked by guards. And what can you use to block a players house or any other house? In Skyrim you can just fus do rah that pile of junk and enter anyway.

Oh and breaking into player houses is fine too. If someone wants to risk getting caught, sure. But to counter losing your valuables, you can hire guards or buy a safe with a combination lock or a "can only be opened with a key" lock.

My point is that if there are high enough penalties for that, only a few would take it to a serious level and even less would risk breaking into a guarded house.

[Mekanikos]

The point I'm making here is that in a game where you can do everything, someone will find a way to break the game.

In your scenario, I block the shopkeeper from escaping by piling things around him and cherry-tap him to death. Being a lowly shopkeeper, he's not had much of a chance to go out and adventure and level up. The most he's done was peek at the blacksmith's daughter and when the smith caught him, well, he can't handle a sword very well. I now have his entire inventory which I turn around and fence for obscene profits.

Let's say that hypothetically the NPCs don't automatically respawn; you have to purchase them or buy a merchant's guild writ in order to have them in your town. That town just got one of their merchants killed; the prices in town have gone up and the price of replacing the merchant also rose.

The pickpocketing thing could be lifted directly from Skyrim, I agree, but what if you're out adventuring and there are no guards to protect you? You've just delved into a dragon's lair and are hefting about a few thousand gold; some rogue is trailing you bleeding you of coins because there's no CD on how often he can do it to a PC. Even at a ridiculously low chance to pickpocket from you *there's still the chance* he lifts 1k gold from you. Some people would find losing 1k gold mildly inconvenient; others would find that devastating.

In regards to locks: what do rogues and noobs have in common? They both pick locks. (I jest, warlocks.)((Really.)) Allowing rogues to burgle into a house and pick a lock would fall under the "everything is possible" clause. Even with guards and a wall of locks, the chance is there for someone to get utterly and undeniably screwed.

Again, hypothetical situations, yes, but in any situation where you think of something, in a game where "everything is possible", I will and can find a way to defeat your argument - mainly because it's just theory-crafting on both of our sides - and in the end you're just creating more problems that you have to find solutions to. We could also do the "What if" game all day, but I'd rather spare the other readers from my wall-O'-text.

It is ultimately easier to place a limit and then work within those limits; less coding, less player complaints (aside from you it seems ) and less of a hassle overall. It would be cool to have a world in which you could do whatever your little heart desires, yes, but it would be awfully impractical.

[Marthenil]

Sandbox but with Themepark pve included. (Doesn't have to be raiding). PvP is entirely sandbox though.

[Mezzolith]

I don't think I would like a truly sandbox game. I kind of like a bit of structure. So maybe one with a mixture of both would be my favorite.

[Deleted]

isnt wow a sandbox game? i mean yo ucan roam freely thats what sandbox is right?

[greysaber]

isnt wow a sandbox game? i mean yo ucan roam freely thats what sandbox is right?

no. WoW is, without a doubt, the least Sandbox MMO there is.

[Fencers]

World of Warcraft is the quintessential theme park MMO.

It is without question, the single greatest example of a theme park MMO. Indeed it is the model of most post-WOW theme park MMOs. It's extremely difficult to have a theme park MMO that is not "WoW-like" in the modern era even.

[Axehandle]

World of Warcraft is the quintessential theme park MMO.

It is without question, the single greatest example of a theme park MMO. Indeed it is the model of most post-WOW theme park MMOs. It's extremely difficult to have a theme park MMO that is not "WoW-like" in the modern era even.

Quoted for truth.

Side note congrats on 10k posts Fencers.

[Redblade]

You did not get the memo. The whole point of sandbox games is that people can play it in a way THEY want to. They can be gatherers, crafters, traders, explorers, entertainers, fighters (pve), fighters (pvp) or a mix of all that. Telling them after a certain point, "middle game" ends here, end game begins now and you all become raiders defeats the purpose of a sandbox 100%.

Combine EvE-Online with WoW PvE on planets and you have a sandbox game with a theme park element, so it's quite possible but at the end of the day it's basically two or more games in one and as such I doubt we will see such a game in a long time if ever.

[Deleted]

The point I'm making here is that in a game where you can do everything, someone will find a way to break the game.

In your scenario, I block the shopkeeper from escaping by piling things around him and cherry-tap him to death. Being a lowly shopkeeper, he's not had much of a chance to go out and adventure and level up. The most he's done was peek at the blacksmith's daughter and when the smith caught him, well, he can't handle a sword very well. I now have his entire inventory which I turn around and fence for obscene profits.

Let's say that hypothetically the NPCs don't automatically respawn; you have to purchase them or buy a merchant's guild writ in order to have them in your town. That town just got one of their merchants killed; the prices in town have gone up and the price of replacing the merchant also rose.

The pickpocketing thing could be lifted directly from Skyrim, I agree, but what if you're out adventuring and there are no guards to protect you? You've just delved into a dragon's lair and are hefting about a few thousand gold; some rogue is trailing you bleeding you of coins because there's no CD on how often he can do it to a PC. Even at a ridiculously low chance to pickpocket from you *there's still the chance* he lifts 1k gold from you. Some people would find losing 1k gold mildly inconvenient; others would find that devastating.

In regards to locks: what do rogues and noobs have in common? They both pick locks. (I jest, warlocks.)((Really.)) Allowing rogues to burgle into a house and pick a lock would fall under the "everything is possible" clause. Even with guards and a wall of locks, the chance is there for someone to get utterly and undeniably screwed.

Again, hypothetical situations, yes, but in any situation where you think of something, in a game where "everything is possible", I will and can find a way to defeat your argument - mainly because it's just theory-crafting on both of our sides - and in the end you're just creating more problems that you have to find solutions to. We could also do the "What if" game all day, but I'd rather spare the other readers from my wall-O'-text.

It is ultimately easier to place a limit and then work within those limits; less coding, less player complaints (aside from you it seems ) and less of a hassle overall. It would be cool to have a world in which you could do whatever your little heart desires, yes, but it would be awfully impractical.

Actually it's not easy either way. Take WoW for example, it's been limited to oblivion and back. There are caps and limits for everything there. Yet people still find ways to exploit or grief.

What I'm saying is it takes as much effort to fix the exploits with caps and limits than it does when fixing them without limits. Sure, stuff could be abused, Im not saying that the programmers can foresee everything but a beta test and a few months of hotfixes should iron most of them out. It's just that a game where everything is possible and what players do becomes canon could be so much fun. In theory you could do everything but the average player could never pull things like that off. Like robbing a very successful players house. You'd have to find out where it is, prepare for the guards, find out the lock combinations etc. It might take months of planning if someone actually wants to do it.

As for your pickpocket example, it's already solved in Skyrim. If you fail the check, you get flagged as criminal and when caught, cant attempt again even if you manage to hide again. Things like that are only annoying when they can't be countered. If pickpockets stealing your lunch money would really annoy you, you could invest into making it harder for them. Besides, griefing like in your example is available in every casual friendly MMO. In WoW you can follow lowbies around and kill them or take their quests mobs etc.