The Game Was Better When.....

[Deleted]

Take Joe the casual out of LFR and then ask him to gather together 39 other raiders all with the right specs, gear and patience to stay until the job is done.

Joe the casual will cry himself to sleep. In fact, I'm sure that Joe the casual couldn't even gather 19 people to clear AQ 20. Avoiding the tornadoes on Ossirion or in fact, gathering and spreading on the trash alone without a big red and white warning flashing on the screen is a "second job".

LFR rewards failure. It gives people gear for doing nothing. It gives people gear they don't deserve. That's why it's so bad for the game.

Yet Joe the Casual could just join a guild and let others do the logistical for him.

It has nothing to do with rewards or difficulty, but the logistical nightmare that Vanilla was. The moment you are in? I afked on MC bosses and still was on the top 5 dps of each boss.

[Peso]

You know, this is the most funny part. Why is it funny?

Because LFR is the EASIEST group content available to do at max level. NOTHING in the game (as far as group content is concerned) is easier than LFR, nothing, that's a fact. And it is STILL more complex, harder and more engaging than most of the Classic raids and dungeons were. That's why I find all these arguments so funny. People like you bash LFR as if it was the plague, and criticize how easy it is and how it isn't engaging or fun, yet it STILL manages to be far above Classic raids in quality, complexity and difficulty. And this is only the easiest level of the raids. The heroic modes make Classic content look like a huge pile of nothing in difficulty. The common denominator between the Classic raids and LFR T14, is the player. Now what's more likely, that you sucked back in your precious "Vanilla", or raids now, even in LFR, are easier than Classic?

That is a blatant misconception. The original game was much harder than LFR. The way everything was designed from talent trees to resistance gear and CC. Saying that is ridiculous and is obviously a sign that people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about anymore.

LFR was one of the worst things to happen to WoW after LFG was added. LFG is like the cancer of WoW. Do you know what the difference between having to think about what to bring to a raid every night and what stats to focus more on and having everything done for you by sites / addons?

I've cleared every heroic in a week at the start of MoP on my underpowered rogue so heroics are a complete joke they are nothing like Vanilla dungeons. Don't confuse the constantly nerfed and dumb down dungeons for the ones that existed in Vanilla with the appropriate stats / low health pools / a completely overhauled talent system every expansion and so many significant factors that changed the gameplay of every class over the years [removing reagents for abilities / brewing your own poisons].

[Adramalech]

The moment you are in? I afked on MC bosses and still was on the top 5 dps of each boss.

I remember watching a video last year or so, from back in Classic, from a guild doing their realm's first Ragnaros kill. It was a rogue PoV. The rogue would be spam clicking his Sinister Strike and Eviscerate icons with his mouse, while simultaneously taling to someone else in whispers. He did nothing but click these buttons. He did not need to move, or to react to anything, he just had to keep doing his "rotation".

A few minutes later, after a sons of flame phase where almost nothing happened other than a bunch of people zerging fire elementals, Ragnaros the almighty died. I'm sure that getting those 40 people together and organizing them was a nightmare... for someone. For a single person, or perhaps a small group of them. The rest of them just had to do what they said and do a minimal effort.

That's what Vanilla raiding was like. There was no challenge, no engagement, no complexity. Just a group of 20-40 players who had to have very specific sets of equipment, lots of time in their hands, patience, and be able to use a mouse and keyboard. If a player such as that rogue showed up in a guild today, he would be ridiculed until he ragequit by those "superior" to him. Why didn't this happen back then? Because most players WERE like that rogue, or worse. Community? Hah.

That is a blatant misconception. The original game was much harder than LFR. The way everything was designed from talent trees to resistance gear and CC. Saying that is ridiculous and is obviously a sign that people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about anymore.

If the original raids were harder than LFR, then I'm the tooth fairy. I'm pretty sure I don't even have boobs, much less wings.

I already discussed enough of this. If you can't get things into your head, and keep on spewing falsehoods, then be my guest, but I'd rather not argue with a brick wall. Hell, maybe a brick wall would actually listen to reason.

By the way, you're assuming I mean today's version of Classic dungeons. I don't. I'm not THAT dumb.

[Deleted]

That is a blatant misconception. The original game was much harder than LFR. The way everything was designed from talent trees to resistance gear and CC. Saying that is ridiculous and is obviously a sign that people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about anymore.

LFR was one of the worst things to happen to WoW after LFG was added. LFG is like the cancer of WoW. Do you know what the difference between having to think about what to bring to a raid every night and what stats to focus more on and having everything done for you by sites / addons?

I've cleared every heroic in a week at the start of MoP on my underpowered rogue so heroics are a complete joke they are nothing like Vanilla dungeons. Don't confuse the constantly nerfed and dumb down dungeons for the ones that existed in Vanilla with the appropriate stats / low health pools / a completely overhauled talent system every expansion and so many significant factors that changed the gameplay of every class over the years [removing reagents for abilities / brewing your own poisons].

You forgot three important factors, better class design, better tools and years of experience. You had none of this in Vanilla.

[Deleted]

Take Joe the casual out of LFR and then ask him to gather together 39 other raiders all with the right specs, gear and patience to stay until the job is done.

Joe the casual will cry himself to sleep. In fact, I'm sure that Joe the casual couldn't even gather 19 people to clear AQ 20. Avoiding the tornadoes on Ossirion or in fact, gathering and spreading on the trash alone without a big red and white warning flashing on the screen is a "second job".

LFR rewards failure. It gives people gear for doing nothing. It gives people gear they don't deserve. That's why it's so bad for the game.

It's funny how it comes down to "classic was more tedious and annoying, so obviously it was better!". You do realize that fighting an uphill battle against 39 other people to get an raid going, to get all these people to actually be online at time and hope that half of them isn't afk all the damn time doesn't count as "real difficulty" right?
Otherwise you could make an game that only responds to half the users commands and half of the time does something completly different and claim it would be a difficult and challenging game. It would be annoying, tedious and frustrating, but truly challenging and difficult? No.

Man this is like claiming that scanning through the old dungeon browser and being the first to ninja invite the sole tank showing up there would be challenging and make the game more fun.

That is a blatant misconception. The original game was much harder than LFR. The way everything was designed from talent trees to resistance gear and CC. Saying that is ridiculous and is obviously a sign that people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about anymore.

Yeah, because farming for hours to get your fire resistance stuff was so much fun, it was engaging, challenging and good game design. In all honesty, do you really belief that these things made the game any better? Might aswell bring the old 5 minute seal of kings back, I bet that was great fun for paladins too. The game was horribly, horribly broking and actively working against the player.

LFR was one of the worst things to happen to WoW after LFG was added. LFG is like the cancer of WoW. Do you know what the difference between having to think about what to bring to a raid every night and what stats to focus more on and having everything done for you by sites / addons?

Those addons popped up long before LFR. Farming for hours to get your resistance buff stuff wasn't fun nor challenging but mind numbing and easy as hell.

I've cleared every heroic in a week at the start of MoP on my underpowered rogue so heroics are a complete joke they are nothing like Vanilla dungeons. Don't confuse the constantly nerfed and dumb down dungeons for the ones that existed in Vanilla with the appropriate stats / low health pools / a completely overhauled talent system every expansion and so many significant factors that changed the gameplay of every class over the years [removing reagents for abilities / brewing your own poisons].

MoP heroics are easy, apparently after the start of Cataclysm that's what Blizzard wanted. Congratulations by the way of doing it in the first week, I did it on the second day, all of them.

Nearly ALL the dungeons in Classic were easy as hell, you didn't need to actually know what you're doing. Almost ALL the bosses are tank and spank with nothing else required of the players. What makes them feel harder is that you had to look for a group for a fairly long time, that you had to get everyone there and that most of them took a hell of a lot of time (and nothing else).
Maraudon a full run? Hardly any kind of challenging boss fights, but it takes damn long to run through the whole thing. Same for blackrock depths.

They were exhausting, annoying and a hassle that took way to long. They however were not challenging, difficult or asked much of the players. However many classes were horrible broken back then compared to now and made it feel even worse.

[timmyotoole]

That quote is talking about BiS and you're talking about, mostly, welfare epics. Are you saying welfare epics are BiS? I think you took that quote way out of, well, not context so much as out of the words he said and into other, imaginary, words you wished he said.

Gonna touch on one point though: LFD made groups harder to make? Seeing as its basically just an automation tool that extends the pool of players to include other servers I have a hard time believing you. I don't remember carrying people either because they were so easy and the mistakes you could make were almost always fatal; it isn't like there were enrage timers left and right.

[Deleted]

The game was better when developers didnt trying to please everyone, but did what they really wanted to do.

[Deleted]

It's funny how it comes down to "classic was more tedious and annoying, so obviously it was better!". You do realize that fighting an uphill battle against 39 other people to get an raid going, to get all these people to actually be online at time and hope that half of them isn't afk all the damn time doesn't count as "real difficulty" right?
Otherwise you could make an game that only responds to half the users commands and half of the time does something completly different and claim it would be a difficult and challenging game. It would be annoying, tedious and frustrating, but truly challenging and difficult? No.

Man this is like claiming that scanning through the old dungeon browser and being the first to ninja invite the sole tank showing up there would be challenging and make the game more fun.

I didn't like 40 man raids for the reasons you mention. That was corrected in TBC and Wrath. What I liked was the fact that people actually needed each other.

But now that you mention it, organizing people isn't easy. But now there is hardly any incentive to do it.

[Deleted]

I didn't like 40 man raids for the reasons you mention. That was corrected in TBC and Wrath. What I liked was the fact that people actually needed each other.

But now that you mention it, organizing people isn't easy. But now there is hardly any incentive to do it.

You need to organize people for normal raids, rbg and even arenas. Ever tried to run an RBG team or even an Arena team? People are at each other's throat in PvP even faster then they're in PvE because in PvP you're actually punished for losing. I did both, having to negotiate between two groups and eventually deciding who has to go isn't a nice thing.

I can do perfectly fine without them adding even more annoyance to the whole mix. I like a challenge, what I don't like is having to break down a cement wall with my head. That's not challenging, that's idiotic.

[Myrlae]

Totally agree brother. They need to stop handing out epics that took you 5 mins of AFKing in LFR to get. I want:

LFR removed.

LFG removed.

Dungeon/raid attunments back.

Crafting gear from raids costing more and increasing their usefulness.

No more heroic modes! Every boss is hard as it is presented with.

More single boss raids.



Taking away LFR and LFG will really bring the community back I think. Shit I know it will when things become hard again they become cool again. It took you 2 weeks to get that epic? Nice! it now means something.

If they bring attunements back they'll remove them after 2months (if even) again.
attunements sucked, ever tried to get new recruits for BT?
dragging 10 persons of which 1 was good and then hoping they'd stay? yeah really want that back.
heroic modes are great and reduce the time needed for new content


vanilla sucks if you look at it now, and the sooner you admit it the sooner you see that not every innovation sucks...

[Immitis]

Taking away LFR and LFG will really bring the community back I think. Shit I know it will when things become hard again they become cool again. It took you 2 weeks to get that epic? Nice! it now means something.

oh you mean back to how it was the easiest and most casual mmo compared to its competition? oh wait it still is that its just the mmo genre has changed O-O

your whole "things were hard blah blah blah" loses all credit when you take into account everyone liked those things BECAUSE THEY WERE SO EASY compared to all the other mmos.

wow was pretty much an easier less grindy cuddle me elmo version of everquest with some warcraft lore slapped on it and a chris metzen yellin FOR THE HORDE.

but of course you will never admit that because then your illusion of all that "hardwork" you did would somehow be devalued and you wouldnt have quite the same ability to stand on your porch screamin "GET OFF MEH LAWN"

[Crashdummy]

Your ideas of putting the genie back in the bottle suck OP. The best moment of WoW was WotLK, which had no grindfest and epics were not that hard to get either.

Cata dungeon difficulty sucked, and MoP daily system as well as grindfest suck too.

WoW reached the top of their popularity catering to casuals in a MMO world where every other MMO in the market catered to special snowflakes.

WoW mopped every other MMO out there BECAUSE it went away form the catering to special snowflakes point of view.

Blizzard is now making a mistake thinking that catering to special snowflakes improves their game, it doesnt.

They made a crappy expansion (Cataclysm) and now they are taking decisin based on a bad analisys of why Cataclysm was such a bad expansion.

It wasnt because the game was dumbed down, it wasnt because of tabards, it wasnt because of LFR, it wasnt because they catered to casuals.

But they seem to think it was, and now they are destroying their own game.

[Peso]

If the original raids were harder than LFR, then I'm the tooth fairy. I'm pretty sure I don't even have boobs, much less wings.

I already discussed enough of this. If you can't get things into your head, and keep on spewing falsehoods, then be my guest, but I'd rather not argue with a brick wall. Hell, maybe a brick wall would actually listen to reason.

By the way, you're assuming I mean today's version of Classic dungeons. I don't. I'm not THAT dumb.

You're comparing two different games altogether. LFR requires no skill at all. Absolutely none. All you need to know how to do is click a button and then wait for an angry person to say you're doing nothing and let the community do the rest for you.

Good so you think LFR is easier than using your brain to improve your character and using tactics to take down a boss? Last time I checked LFR is all the same every single time you fight each boss it's the same routine every time. At least with the original game every attempt on a boss was different and not completely scripted to the point of a linear line to not allow any opportunity to use specific items to your advantage.

No wonder in world first kills people don't give a shit anymore. They have been doing the same exact thing for 24 hours with a scripted boss. When they finally get lucky they win. GG it wasn't like that in Vanilla.

[Immitis]

You're comparing two different games altogether. LFR requires no skill at all. Absolutely none. All you need to know how to do is click a button and then wait for an angry person to say you're doing nothing and let the community do the rest for you.

Good so you think LFR is easier than using your brain to improve your character and using tactics to take down a boss? Last time I checked LFR is all the same every single time you fight each boss it's the same routine every time. At least with the original game every attempt on a boss was different and not completely scripted to the point of a linear line to not allow any opportunity to use specific items to your advantage.

No wonder in world first kills people don't give a shit anymore. They have been doing the same exact thing for 24 hours with a scripted boss. When they finally get lucky they win. GG it wasn't like that in Vanilla.

i really wish the everquest players were still around you and everyone in here talking about how vanilla was hard would be teased so badly O-O

[Tomana]

You're comparing two different games altogether. LFR requires no skill at all. Absolutely none. All you need to know how to do is click a button and then wait for an angry person to say you're doing nothing and let the community do the rest for you.

Riiight, because MC required sooo much skill that you could have 15 people afking and still down bosses. Clearly it was hard.

I won't even mention that the fact that dps rotations, even in LFR, are on average more complicated to learn than Vanilla/BC rotations. Compare Vanilla/BC enhancement rotation with MOP rotation. Compare the elem one (yay, lightning spam). Compare warlock one (shadowboooolt). Draw your conclusions.

[Peso]

All I see is a bunch of people getting defensive about MoP. We will see how well your mop does cleaning up WoW after Cataclysm. This entire argument is biased since the people that played Vanilla / TBC and enjoyed it quit but the ones that disliked it stuck around and glued them selves on this site. It's much harder to get a point across on a forum dedicated to the game after 8 years of changes and quitting people that actually know what they're talking about. So yeah you all think you're right but the truth will always be there until the end of WoW and there's nothing you can do about it except cry that you have no community except a dark abyss full of nothing but hate.

[Tomana]

Blizzard is now making a mistake thinking that catering to special snowflakes improves their game, it doesnt.

They made a crappy expansion (Cataclysm) and now they are taking decisin based on a bad analisys of why Cataclysm was such a bad expansion.

It wasnt because the game was dumbed down, it wasnt because of tabards, it wasnt because of LFR, it wasnt because they catered to casuals.

But they seem to think it was, and now they are destroying their own game.

Actually, what they're trying to do with MOP is to have enough content for everyone. Problem is, some people (call them "casuals" or whatever you like) think that they HAVE to do anything available around, while a big part of that content (including dailies) is largely non-mandatory.

[Deleted]

You're comparing two different games altogether. LFR requires no skill at all. Absolutely none. All you need to know how to do is click a button and then wait for an angry person to say you're doing nothing and let the community do the rest for you.

Good so you think LFR is easier than using your brain to improve your character and using tactics to take down a boss? Last time I checked LFR is all the same every single time you fight each boss it's the same routine every time. At least with the original game every attempt on a boss was different and not completely scripted to the point of a linear line to not allow any opportunity to use specific items to your advantage.

No wonder in world first kills people don't give a shit anymore. They have been doing the same exact thing for 24 hours with a scripted boss. When they finally get lucky they win. GG it wasn't like that in Vanilla.

I really don't see any kind of difference to classic. I mean half the raid was AFK in 40 mans and other people either got angry or yelled at them just the same. Also you didn't need to learn any kind of tactics as for the most part THERE WEREN'T ANY.

Taking all this into consideration, don't you guys already have exactly what you're asking for in LFR?

[Tomana]

All I see is a bunch of people getting defensive about MoP.

And all I see is a random forum guy whining about how vanilla and BC was better. Which is ironic because a lot of people on this forum actually played during vanilla and BC.

So yeah you all think you're right but the truth will always be there until the end of WoW and there's nothing you can do about it except cry that you have no community except a dark abyss full of nothing but hate.

"WoW is dead" (c) some guy during vanilla

[Immitis]

All I see is a bunch of people getting defensive about MoP. We will see how well your mop does cleaning up WoW after Cataclysm. This entire argument is biased since the people that played Vanilla / TBC and enjoyed it quit but the ones that disliked it stuck around and glued them selves on this site. It's much harder to get a point across on a forum dedicated to the game after 8 years of changes and quitting people that actually know what they're talking about. So yeah you all think you're right but the truth will always be there until the end of WoW and there's nothing you can do about it except cry that you have no community except a dark abyss full of nothing but hate.

DO NOT lump vanilla and bc together EVER vanilla was a decent game bc was a complete and utter pile of crap with a crystal sticking out of it in fact we should just retcon the whole damn thing and act like it never happened i hope when blizzard brings back illidan they just sweep bc under the rug and act like he never even died O-O