Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Deleted]

Yeah but Thrall wouldn't of died. Arguing what happened at Undercity is really asinine at this point.

Not really. I was merely stating more lives could have been saved if it wasn't for Jainas twisted mentality.

She sacrifices her own father, who has seen the true color of the Horde, the color of blood, just for the sake of peace, a revelation which proved to be delusional. But of course, she prioritized her love for Thrall over her father. Her betrayal in Undercity was already mentioned. Then everything went down to hell.

[Deleted]

What's to argue? You can see the quest for yourself. Only 1 Sunreaver (Fanlyr) was at Darnassus.

Ok 1 Sunreaver. Which means that Sunreaver was responsible for the whole thing. And that Sunreaver was aware he risked the neutrality of the Sunreavers.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 11:13 PM ----------

Because every other Sunreaver and Blood Elf you encounter is completely shocked by what is going on.

But what is your argument then? That it's up for discussion whether throwing out a whole group because of the actions of 1 person is right? That's fine, but people arguing that the Sunreavers (or 1 Sunreaver, however you want to see it) had nothing to do with it doesn't make sense to me.

[Aquamonkey]

Ok 1 Sunreaver. Which means that Sunreaver was responsible for the whole thing. And that Sunreaver was aware he risked the neutrality of the Sunreavers.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 11:13 PM ----------



But what is your argument then? That it's up for discussion whether throwing out a whole group because of the actions of 1 person is right? That's fine, but people arguing that the Sunreavers (or 1 Sunreaver, however you want to see it) had nothing to do with it doesn't make sense to me.

I just want to make the distinction clear. People say "Sunreavers" did this and "Sunreavers" did that, when it was only 1 Sunreaver. The Orc at Domination Point says specifically "an agent" (singular) before sending the PC to Darnassus. Once there, it is only 1 Sunreaver, Fanlyr. The same person who has been working directly for Garrosh the whole quest chain and had previously had his life threatened.

[DFu4ever]

Ok 1 Sunreaver. Which means that Sunreaver was responsible for the whole thing. And that Sunreaver was aware he risked the neutrality of the Sunreavers.

And it's commendable for him to worry about that even when Jaina actively broke neutrality already by assisting the Alliance in warding the Bell. At most what he did was balance out her actions with his own. The fact that she didn't realize her own actions were out of line as leader of a neutral faction speaks to how fragile her psyche currently is.

[Aquamonkey]

And it's commendable for him to worry about that even when Jaina actively broke neutrality already by assisting the Alliance in warding the Bell. At most what he did was balance out her actions with his own. The fact that she didn't realize her own actions were out of line as leader of a neutral faction speaks to how fragile her psyche currently is.

Part of the Kirin Tor's mission statement is to protect all life on Azeroth (their involvement with the Guardians of Tirisfal). Jaina didn't break this when she warded the Bell.

[Darth-Piekus]

Aquamonkey you are wrong in this logic. Allow me to show you why. One Sunreaver was at Theramore, One Sunreaver was at Darnassus. How many Sunreavers are behind I wonder. Because if there is a first and a second there is surely a third and a fourth. Let's be honest. Deep down you know that the Sunreavers are not tha innocent. There is surely a part of the Sunreavers who worked behind the back even of Aethas.

[Combatbutler]

Aquamonkey you are wrong in this logic. Allow me to show you why. One Sunreaver was at Theramore, One Sunreaver was at Darnassus. How many Sunreavers are behind I wonder. Because if there is a first and a second there is surely a third and a fourth. Let's be honest. Deep down you know that the Sunreavers are not tha innocent. There is surely a part of the Sunreavers who worked behind the back even of Aethas.

One human became the majordomus of the lich king another betrayed the city to the blue Dragonflight, surely every human in the Kirin Tor is guilty by that logic.

The Kirin Tor have never been a loyal bunch they betray each other constantly.

[DFu4ever]

Part of the Kirin Tor's mission statement is to protect all life on Azeroth (their involvement with the Guardians of Tirisfal). Jaina didn't break this when she warded the Bell.

Funny how the Alliance still had access to it for study, though.

[Aquamonkey]

Aquamonkey you are wrong in this logic. Allow me to show you why. One Sunreaver was at Theramore, One Sunreaver was at Darnassus. How many Sunreavers are behind I wonder. Because if there is a first and a second there is surely a third and a fourth. Let's be honest. Deep down you know that the Sunreavers are not tha innocent. There is surely a part of the Sunreavers who worked behind the back even of Aethas.

I'm not discounting the possibility that there may be other spies. But that's the point, they are spies and traitors. Their actions are not representative of the Sunreaver organization. Punishing all the Sunreavers only works to push people, who were otherwise friendly towards Dalaran, into the enemy camp. Jaina persecuted innocent people and now they are aligned against her.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 02:53 PM ----------

Funny how the Alliance still had access to it for study, though.

What they were doing with the Bell is debatable. Their stated intent was not to weaponize it. Studying the Bell isn't necessarily a bad thing. The only way to learn how to neutralize its effects is to study it.

[Haven]

Ok 1 Sunreaver. Which means that Sunreaver was responsible for the whole thing. And that Sunreaver was aware he risked the neutrality of the Sunreavers.

Yeah, Garithos was aware he risked the allegiance of Blood Elves, Daelin Proudmoore was aware he risked the future of the Alliance, and Varimathras was aware he risked the status of the Forsaken.

[Deleted]

Yeah, Garithos was aware he risked the allegiance of Blood Elves, Daelin Proudmoore was aware he risked the future of the Alliance, and Varimathras was aware he risked the status of the Forsaken.

Except all of those are either leaders or relevant members of the comunity, Fanlyr is a no one flying the banner of the Sunreavers while operating in favour of Garrosh.

[Jediguy]

She was keeping it from ANYONE getting their hand on it.

This is simply untrue. If Jaina was interested in remaining neutral and keeping anyone from having the Bell, she would have instantly teleported it to Dalaran and locked it away next to the Focusing Iris. Did she do this? Nope. Instead of keeping it from both the Horde and Alliance, Jaina put protective magic around the Bell in Darnassus to keep it there – to keep in in Alliance hands – and protect it from being taken by the Horde.

The Alliance themselves got the hand on Divine Bell unrelated to Jaina. The Night Elves took them to Darnassus and when a portal leading to Darnassus and Jaina found it leading to Dalaran well you add it up. Jaina HAD to do something.

Jaina already did do something: she actively engaged in the conflict between the Horde and the Alliance by helping the Alliance tighten its grip on the Divine Bell in keeping it from the Horde. How is it okay for Jaina, a member of the neutral Kirin Tor, to actively help the Alliance against the Horde but it’s not okay for a Sunreaver to actively help the Horde against the Alliance? The Alliance hypocrisy here stinks to high heaven.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 06:31 PM ----------

Jaina warded Darnassus to protect everyone on both sides. Fanlyr infiltrated Darnassus to help Garrosh attack everyone on both sides. Garrosh even used the Bell on his right-hand man, nobody was safe.

Jaina's actions don't marry up very well with your asserted motivation. If Jaina really wanted to protect everyone on both sides, she should have just teleported the bell to Dalaran and locked it up next to the Focusing Iris. Why didn't she? It should have been easy and quick to do so, since a non-mage like myself was able to teleport it out of Darnassus within seconds, in spite of protective magics. Surely the most powerful mage in Azeroth could have done this even more easily than that. Why didn't she? Because it's no secret that Jaina favors the Alliance and her actions in Darnassus prove it.

Again, I'm not saying Jaina was not justified in keeping the Bell from Garrosh, especially after what he did to Theramore, but if it was the security of everyone that Jaina sought, she should have taken it the Bell to a neutral, secure location instead of helping the Alliance keep their prize.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 06:38 PM ----------

What Aeluron said. But to add to his points....

When comparing the two the context of both is also vital. Jaina's actions were to protect the lives of many, whereas the actions of the Sunreavers in question was for the second time to cause more death and destruction on a large scale.

I don't believe Jaina's actions broke neutrality, but that is besides the point in this case. Jaina's actions were to protect lives while the Sunreavers were to take lives. It's obvious which one of the two regardless of affiliation is worse.

Again, no one is saying that Jaina didn't have a good idea in keeping the Bell away from Garrosh, but she did so in a way that broke neutrality: instead of teleporting the Bell to the vaults of the neutral Kirin Tor so neither the Alliance nor Horde could possibly use it, she helped the Alliance keep it in their possession. When you help one side keep a weapon from the other side when both sides are in a conflict, that means you are not neutral. You cannot claim neutrality in a conflict when you help one side against the other. If it was world peace she sought, there was clearly a better way of trying to reach that goal: keep the weapon in the hands of a neutral party. She didn't. She helped the Alliance keep it and was probably hoping they would use it against the Horde, much like she tried using the Focusing Iris to commit genocide in Orgrimmar. You'll understand that after Jaina's little episode with the Focusing Iris, there is a healthy amount of skepticism toward anyone who says that Jaina wants to remain neutral and make sure no one uses powerful artifacts of war against the Horde or Alliance. She has already proven that's not the case.

[Deleted]

Yeah, Garithos was aware he risked the allegiance of Blood Elves, Daelin Proudmoore was aware he risked the future of the Alliance, and Varimathras was aware he risked the status of the Forsaken.

And that's supposed to tell me what?

Fanlyr is a Sunreaver, therefore he has access to their portals.
And yes, he is risking their neutrality. But since when does that mean the Sunreavers know what he is doing?
Fanlyr doesn't care about risking their neutrality, because he is following Garrosh's orders.

Aquamonkey explained it, the other ones had no idea what was going on.
And nobody would agree with being kicked out of a city you've been living in for 2000 years, that's why Aethas doesn't immediately leave.

That's not part of the discussion. Doesn't matter whether the others know or not. We already know not all of the Sunreavers were involved. How many knew about it we can not say. I was merely adressing people who claimed the Sunreavers had nothing to do with it.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 01:09 AM ----------

I just want to make the distinction clear. People say "Sunreavers" did this and "Sunreavers" did that, when it was only 1 Sunreaver. The Orc at Domination Point says specifically "an agent" (singular) before sending the PC to Darnassus. Once there, it is only 1 Sunreaver, Fanlyr. The same person who has been working directly for Garrosh the whole quest chain and had previously had his life threatened.

I'm honest here, I've never really paid much attention to how many Sunreavers were present. I just assumed a bunch of them were involved, and I even did the questline on both sides. But in all honesty, the distinction doesn't matter much. If it were 2 guys, we could use the plural, but it would still only be an insignificant portion of the whole. I guess I'll continue to say Sunreavers, because it's more convenient to write than "one of the Sunreavers". I could just say Fanlyr, and I'm not really sure why I don't. Maybe because I still think it's important he's one of the Sunreavers, since that was the second time the Sunreavers pulled something like this.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 01:17 AM ----------

I've just rewatched the video and you can see Sunreaver mages holding up the shield around Fan'lyr, so it's definitely Sunreavers, not just one Sunreaver. And the quest text says "Furthermore the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation." He's not just saying that he risks their neutrality.

[esmifra]

Not really. I was merely stating more lives could have been saved if it wasn't for Jainas twisted mentality.

She sacrifices her own father, who has seen the true color of the Horde, the color of blood, just for the sake of peace, a revelation which proved to be delusional. But of course, she prioritized her love for Thrall over her father. Her betrayal in Undercity was already mentioned. Then everything went down to hell.

Everything went to hell in wrathgate, BEFORE undercity.

Also you probably jumped an expansion, because if Varian succeeded in killing thrall (which is still for debate) there wouldn't be an Azeroth now, Deathwing would have won. Every character would be death, so no! You are completely wrong. Jaina did the absolutely right thing at the point. It was Thrall's Horde not Garrosh's.

[Haven]

Except all of those are either leaders or relevant members of the comunity, Fanlyr is a no one flying the banner of the Sunreavers while operating in favour of Garrosh.

Which makes the point even more profound.

And that's supposed to tell me what?

That that particular individual didn't give an airbourne intercourse about the image or reputation of his supposed faction while operating on the behest of someone else. Let us judge Alliance based on Arthas. Let us judge night elves based on Staghelm. Let us slaughter Ironforge because Moira was Thassarian's concubine when Dark Irons were still worshipping Ragnaros. Let us punish groups for individual's sins.

[Deleted]

Which makes the point even more profound.

That that particular individual didn't give an airbourne intercourse about the image or reputation of his supposed faction while operating on the behest of someone else. Let us judge Alliance based on Arthas. Let us judge night elves based on Staghelm. Let us slaughter Ironforge because Moira was Thassarian's concubine when Dark Irons were still worshipping Ragnaros. Let us punish groups for individual's sins.

Moira and Thassarian, did I miss something? Is that Dwarf getting jiggy with a Death Knight?

The Sunreavers betrayed them twice. It would be stupid to give them the chance to do it a third time. They should've been kicked out the first time.

[Zaelsino]

How many knew about it we can not say.

Isn't this just common sense though? It was a covert, non-combat espionage mission, in and out through one guy's portal. Just how many could have possibly known about it? What possible reason would Fanlyr have to involve any more than the absolute minimum (the three or four shield mages we see) of Sunreaver stooges stupid enough to risk their neutrality for Garrosh?

You make it sound like Fanlyr was running around Dalaran telling everyone about this super secret mission that he'd been tasked with. Assuming he's not retarded (which, to be fair, after seeing his piss poor cleaning up skills, may be a generous assumption), barely anyone would have had knowledge of the mission.

Low-key espionage missions given to you by the head of state aren't exactly things one goes blabbing around town.

[Aquamonkey]

I've just rewatched the video and you can see Sunreaver mages holding up the shield around Fan'lyr, so it's definitely Sunreavers, not just one Sunreaver. And the quest text says "Furthermore the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation." He's not just saying that he risks their neutrality.

They are not Sunreavers. Their name plates say "Silvermoon Mage".

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 05:09 PM ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PcQpFAvnyQ#t=38s
Pause at 40s, you can see the guy hovers his mouse over one of them. The tooltip in the bottom right says "Silvermoon Mage"

[Deleted]

They are not Sunreavers. Their name plates say "Silvermoon Mage".

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 05:09 PM ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PcQpFAvnyQ#t=38s
Pause at 40s, you can see the guy hovers his mouse over one of them. The tooltip in the bottom right says "Silvermoon Mage"

Hmm. This is getting trickier and trickier.

[Duncanîdaho]

Actually Thrall was chosen because he was Metzen's favorite character. I believe a lot of other characters could also control the Dragon Soul.

Nope. Thrall is the strongest Shaman on Azeroth by far, when he wasn't even all into shaman mode it was pretty much shown that he was still powerful as hell(see Battle for undercity and WC3). He has always been built up as a powerful shaman. Now that he can tap into the power of the Azeroth's Earth fully at will he almost rivals an Aspect in power I'd say. To be able to pull the essence of Khazgoroth from the Earth of Azeroth straight into the Dragon Soul is an amazing feat that the Aspects themselves could not accomplish without Deathwing. They needed Thrall for it. Even Malfurion(who is thousands of years old) is impressed by his power, I think you underestimate it. Also to communicate with the Earth on that level you need to be a shaman, no other class could of done it. Druids are nature and balance as a whole, mages are arcane...etc. Thrall was the only person for the job, it's the entire basis for him leaving the horde in the first place that led to all this conflict with Garrosh, Jaina and Varian. If some other shaman could of done it, Thrall would of stayed as Warchief.

As for the the main topic here, this thread was a really good read for me. Lots of good discussion on the ethics of war, and who the 'innocents' really are. I can't really add anything that hasn't been said but I am of the opinion that both sides are at fault here. I see an Alliance faction who struggles to hang on to their code of honor and decency in a time of war and are slowly becoming the thing they swear to fight. Like how many times has the Horde backstabbed them now or at least appeared to? It's hard to maintain such a positive outlook and be trusting when your apparent ally seems to take every opportunity to kill you and chase you out of land ancestrally yours. On the other hand I see a horde faction struggling with what happens when a impulsive xenophobic tyrant takes over. Any Atrocity that the Horde has committed has been because of Garrosh, he is the reason, yet the horde itself must pay with innocent lives. Like Lor'themar pretty much said, Garrosh is buying things with Horde blood with no plan. He did all that stuff to get the bell, and caused so much conflict, for what? So Ishi could die and a child who was no threat, breaks his bones? It's madness!

Blizzard has done an excellent job of showing how atrocity simply breeds more atrocity and is viewed as such by either side, regardless of affiliation. Theramore was an atrocity no matter what side you look at it from, as was the purge of Dalaran. In both cases innocent people suffered while the guilty parties or the main targets for the most part remained unscathed.