Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Combatbutler]

Well if some faction in Dalaran made their affiliation with Malygos apparent while they were part of the Kirin Tor, betrayed them and joined the ranks of Malygos while abusing their position within theb Kirin Tor to help the Blue Dragonflight, I'm sure had she been the leader at that time she would've done something, just like Rhonin would've.

Those people were part of The Kirin Tor as a whole and at least one acted as sleeper agent, trying to crash the entire city into a mountain. Those things happened before and they will happen again, loyalty was never the virtue of the Dalaran magi.

[Deleted]

Those people were part of The Kirin Tor as a whole and at least one acted as sleeper agent, trying to crash the entire city into a mountain. Those things happened before and they will happen again, loyalty was never the virtue of the Dalaran magi.

So because there are traitors among the Kirin Tor that means that they shouldn't be punished/thrown out?

[Combatbutler]

So because there are traitors among the Kirin Tor that means that they shouldn't be punished/thrown out?

The traitors of course but not those who are in some way associated with them, otherwise the Kirin Tor should have ceased to be a long time ago. But that is beside the point now, what is done is done.

[Deleted]

The traitors of course but not those who are in some way associated with them, otherwise the Kirin Tor should have ceased to be a long time ago. But that is beside the point now, what is done is done.

If you have a group like the Sunreavers where one of them pulls something like that and you just throw him out or only punish him and let the others stay unharmed, then wouldn't that be a great way of abusing that? If I was the Horde, I would always send one man on a mission. Even if he gets discovered and gets thrown out, there's lot of other Sunreavers in there.

I think every reasonable person would at some point figure out that you can't trust that faction because everytime someone from them does something like that and you throw him out, there's another one doing the exact same thing, while the bulk of the faction can continue to sit safely in Dalaran.

At least at some point you have to think, "hey this doesn't work, we have to get rid of all of them". There is a limited number of times you let a group screw you over and for Jaina that number was 2.

[Combatbutler]

If you have a group like the Sunreavers where one of them pulls something like that and you just throw him out or only punish him and let the others stay unharmed, then wouldn't that be a great way of abusing that? If I was the Horde, I would always send one man on a mission. Even if he gets discovered and gets thrown out, there's lot of other Sunreavers in there.

I think every reasonable person would at some point figure out that you can't trust that faction because everytime someone from them does something like that and you throw him out, there's another one doing the exact same thing, while the bulk of the faction can continue to sit safely in Dalaran.

At least at some point you have to think, "hey this doesn't work, we have to get rid of all of them". There is a limited number of times you let a group screw you over and for Jaina that number was 2.

Still you have to consider the past of the Kirin Tor as well to see the whole picture, they are hardly a trustworthy bunch, never have and never will be.

Throwing the Sunreavers out was the logical thing to do, still the Kirin Tor as a whole remain untrustworthy.

[Deleted]

Still you have to consider the past of the Kirin Tor as well to see the whole picture, they are hardly a trustworthy bunch, never have and never will be.

Throwing the Sunreavers out was the logical thing to do, still the Kirin Tor as a whole remain untrustworthy.

Don't see how the Kirin Tor as a whole is untrustworthy.

[Combatbutler]

Don't see how the Kirin Tor as a whole is untrustworthy.

Personal preference maybe but the Kirin Tor had so many traitors in recent years it is hard to trust them, not to mention they are just as opportunistic as the blood elves.

[DeLos]

That presumption of Aethas' guilt is what psychic divination I was referring to. She had no evidence of Aethas' involvement. We don't know anything about what investigations Aethas conducted to find spies. Just because he didn't discover Fanlyr, doesn't mean he wasn't looking for spies.

Unfortunately, slaughter is canon: "Most Covenant agents are out slaughtering Sunreavers right now..." -Rommath

This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal. There is no way he did not know what was going on. Even if he did nothing himself (and we are not sure of that) he gave tacit approval by letting it happen. He watched it go down. He got caught red handed. There is no "presumption of Aethas' guilt", she caught him.

And this is all moot anyway. Regardless of if you think her evidence was circumstantial or not, we as outsiders seeing both events know she was correct. A contingent of Sunreavers did use Dalaran to slip into Darnassus. Aethas did know about it.

As to the 'slaughter' being cannon, I really think this is interesting that you take it that way. Rommath says X and suddenly it is 100% true and he knows it for fact. It is cannon. There was no embellishment, no mistaken information, etc, etc. Yet when Jaina says Aethas was guilty, you are all 'No, she could not possibly know that. She didn't have any evidence. She is over reacting and emotional." What if Rommath's 'most' was really just a couple traitors. He is condemning the entire organization. What about all the Silver Covenant agents that had nothing to do with it? I could say Rommath is just emotional and pissed and blaming an innocent organization for the act of a few. See how that works? Goose meets gander.

[Deleted]

Personal preference maybe but the Kirin Tor had so many traitors in recent years it is hard to trust them, not to mention they are just as opportunistic as the blood elves.

Who exactly.

[Zaelsino]

This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal.

I don't recall any portal in the Violet Citadel. Aethas hanging out in the place the city's leaders are known to spend time in isn't exactly incriminating.

Shit, Vereesa was standing about five meters away. Was she in on the plot too?

[Combatbutler]

Who exactly.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Crevan
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kel%27thuzad
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kael
http://www.wowpedia.org/Telestra
http://www.wowpedia.org/Mage-Lord_Urom
http://www.wowpedia.org/Inquisitor_Caleras

However, there are some members of the Kirin Tor who believed that allying themselves with Malygos would be far more beneficial. Betraying their own brethren to preserve their own power, these mages have been transformed and bolstered by Malygos to become the dreaded mage hunters.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Nexus_War
http://www.wowpedia.org/Mage_hunter


Do you want my honest opinion which faction in the wow universe can be trusted? The answer is none, neutral or otherwise ;P

[DFu4ever]

This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal. There is no way he did not know what was going on. Even if he did nothing himself (and we are not sure of that) he gave tacit approval by letting it happen. He watched it go down. He got caught red handed. There is no "presumption of Aethas' guilt", she caught him.

What portal? There is one to Domination Point (where the mission is sent from) and a second to Silvermoon (where the Bell is sent). Neither of which should incriminate Aethas as he was never directly involved. Fanlyr opens the Domination Point portal, and he is the sole Sunreaver you see involved.

[Deleted]

http://www.wowpedia.org/Crevan
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kel%27thuzad
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kael
http://www.wowpedia.org/Telestra
http://www.wowpedia.org/Mage-Lord_Urom
http://www.wowpedia.org/Inquisitor_Caleras



http://www.wowpedia.org/Nexus_War
http://www.wowpedia.org/Mage_hunter


Do you want my honest opinion which faction in the wow universe can be trusted? The answer is none, neutral or otherwise ;P

Uhm, some of those are just mages who left the Kirin Tor to pursue other "goals". I haven't read up on all of them, but have they really all betrayed and harmed the Kirin Tor. I mean siding with Malygos certainly serves the purpose of fighting mortal mages, but have they pulled something on Dalaran before they left? What has Kael done that could be considered traitorous? Didn't he just leave?

[Aquamonkey]

This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal. There is no way he did not know what was going on. Even if he did nothing himself (and we are not sure of that) he gave tacit approval by letting it happen. He watched it go down. He got caught red handed. There is no "presumption of Aethas' guilt", she caught him.

Complete bullshit. Aethas isn't even there when you first port in. He only shows up after Jaina screams his name and murders 3 Blood Elves. I suggest you look at that part of the quest again.

And this is all moot anyway. Regardless of if you think her evidence was circumstantial or not, we as outsiders seeing both events know she was correct. A contingent of Sunreavers did use Dalaran to slip into Darnassus. Aethas did know about it.

There is nothing in any of the quests to suggest that Aethas knew about it. Fanlyr answers directly to Garrosh. Fanlyr and Aethas never interact in any of the quests.

As to the 'slaughter' being cannon, I really think this is interesting that you take it that way. Rommath says X and suddenly it is 100% true and he knows it for fact. It is cannon. There was no embellishment, no mistaken information, etc, etc. Yet when Jaina says Aethas was guilty, you are all 'No, she could not possibly know that. She didn't have any evidence. She is over reacting and emotional." What if Rommath's 'most' was really just a couple traitors. He is condemning the entire organization. What about all the Silver Covenant agents that had nothing to do with it? I could say Rommath is just emotional and pissed and blaming an innocent organization for the act of a few. See how that works? Goose meets gander.

Rommath is there in Dalaran while this is happening. He had just finished liberating Sunreaver citizens in the sewers from Silver Covenant forces. You can see for yourself the Silver Covenant torturing Blood Elves. The Silver Covenant hate the Sunreavers and always have. It is consistent with their character to go around killing Blood Elves.

When Jaina says Aethas is guilty, there is nothing to back it up. Everything about Aethas' history and character show he is against Garrosh and supports Dalaran and Jaina.

[Combatbutler]

Uhm, some of those are just mages who left the Kirin Tor to pursue other "goals". I haven't read up on all of them, but have they really all betrayed and harmed the Kirin Tor. I mean siding with Malygos certainly serves the purpose of fighting mortal mages, but have they pulled something on Dalaran before they left? What has Kael done that could be considered traitorous? Didn't he just leave?

They sided with the enemy and actively hunted every other mage that wasn't in their group, hence the name mage hunter. Kael did not betray them initially he was more or less pushed over the edge, though I put him there since he laid waste to most of the Kirin Tor in Outland.

[Aquamonkey]

Uhm, some of those are just mages who left the Kirin Tor to pursue other "goals". I haven't read up on all of them, but have they really all betrayed and harmed the Kirin Tor. I mean siding with Malygos certainly serves the purpose of fighting mortal mages, but have they pulled something on Dalaran before they left? What has Kael done that could be considered traitorous? Didn't he just leave?

Kel'thuzad betrayed Kirin Tor law by researching forbidden magic, for which he was expelled.

While Jaina was former Kirin Tor at the time, she broke into the Kirin Tor and stole books on the Focusing Iris to perform an attack that was condemned by the Council.

[Deleted]

They sided with the enemy and actively hunted every other mage that wasn't in their group, hence the name mage hunter. Kael did not betray them initially he was more or less pushed over the edge, though I put him there since he laid waste to most of the Kirin Tor in Outland.

Well I guess thats kind of traitorous but its a whole different situation from what the Sunreavers have done. If they left Dalaran and openly opposed them, that really brings it down to, they want to fight us so let's fight back. And thats what they did. There were Kirin Tor quests to go in to the Nexus and to the Oculus to fight those guys. So what's the criticism here.

[Combatbutler]

Well I guess thats kind of traitorous but its a whole different situation from what the Sunreavers have done. If they left Dalaran and openly opposed them, that really brings it down to, they want to fight us so let's fight back. And thats what they did. There were Kirin Tor quests to go in to the Nexus and to the Oculus to fight those guys. So what's the criticism here.

So if the involved Sunreavers would have come out and attacked ,it would have been not as bad? Don't be ridiculous.

The mage hunters betrayed their former comrades, they wanted to kill them all, better sooner than later and Crevan nearly succeeded by smashing Dalaran into a mountain side.

[Aquamonkey]

Well I guess thats kind of traitorous but its a whole different situation from what the Sunreavers have done. If they left Dalaran and openly opposed them, that really brings it down to, they want to fight us so let's fight back. And thats what they did. There were Kirin Tor quests to go in to the Nexus and to the Oculus to fight those guys. So what's the criticism here.

IMO, it's weak writing to involve the Sunreavers the way they did. The whole time you interact with Fanlyr, he is directing the Reliquary and there is no mention of him being a Sunreaver. He's just a random Blood Elf working under Garrosh. Is it even established that he's a mage? Fanlyr being a Sunreaver is shoehorned in during the Darnassus operation to serve the plot of war, war, war.

[Deleted]

Kel'thuzad betrayed Kirin Tor law by researching forbidden magic, for which he was expelled.

While Jaina was former Kirin Tor at the time, she broke into the Kirin Tor and stole books on the Focusing Iris to perform an attack that was condemned by the Council.

I know what Kel did, but thats a very different thing from what the Sunreavers did.