Ret and PvP - GC giving us the middle finger.

[Deleted]

Sorry but that's as far from correct as you are going to get, Look at the people he has played with. We have been over this, If the representation of the spec is determined viable because 0.01% have made it so does not mean it is. Any Rank 1 group of players can succeed with any 3 classes it's been proven a number of times over.

Ret was ok before the PVP Power nerf. Other classes weren't and still aren't.

Go back in time to Cata as well where Vanguards played it efficiently to high ratings. It was viable, as a *hybrid*. Most players can't seem to play ret as a hybrid, and I understand why.

Blizzard should take that into consideration.

[Reith]

Ret was ok before the PVP Power nerf. Other classes weren't and still aren't.

Go back in time to Cata as well where Vanguards played it efficiently to high ratings. It was viable, as a *hybrid*. Most players can't seem to play ret as a hybrid, and I understand why.

That's not the problem. The problem is Ghostcrawler's definition of "fine" when it comes to Ret. I bet my ass he would say Enhancement is "fine" too, but Ret and Enhancement can't both be "fine" because Enhancement is clearly better than Ret when Enhancement is clearly not OP, so Ret is, by definition, LESS than fine, which would make it a bit underpowered. Ghostcrawler does not understand this, at all. This is not to say Rogues aren't underpowered or other particular specs aren't underpowered, but Ret is NOT fine.

[GrinningMan]

The reason they won't make WoG a nice, high powered heal is simple.

Holy Avenger

Remove that, and maybe you'd get lucky. Even if everyone goes Divine Purpose, the 1% that goes Holy Avenger would then have the ability to instantly heal themselves back up to full HP every 2 minutes.

Combine that with Unbreakable Spirit, and suddenly you'd have several heals that can damn near instantly cap them back off with little investment.

But, that's my opinion. People would use the WoG buff as a means to then beg for more damage, since now their survivability would be approaching stupidly high.

[Garkanh]

or maybe it's just because ret paladins are fine?

[Deleted]

That's not the problem. The problem is Ghostcrawler's definition of "fine" when it comes to Ret. I bet my ass he would say Enhancement is "fine" too, but Ret and Enhancement can't both be "fine" because Enhancement is clearly better than Ret when Enhancement is clearly not OP, so Ret is, by definition, LESS than fine, which would make it a bit underpowered. Ghostcrawler does not understand this, at all. This is not to say Rogues aren't underpowered or other particular specs aren't underpowered, but Ret is NOT fine.

If Blizz turned ret into a non-hybrid more specialized spec, it would be far easier to balance.

At the moment ret just needs heals to scale with some PVP Power again and it would be ok as a hybrid, but the cycle will just repeat itself.

We also have to take into consideration synergy and 3v3 setups. You could have the most OP 3v3 setup in the world but take one class out of that and it might be mediocre on its own versus skillcapped players.

I'd only recommend ret in arena for someone if they were good at juggling abilities and had excellent awareness. Otherwise they are best sticking to PVE where you can tunnel vision much more.

[Deleted]

I hate to say this dude, but you have no idea what you are talking about. The PVP Power nerf really hurt ret's healing and rets just spend most of their time being trained to death in arenas now.

Ret is still not viable for rated BGs either.

We have one stun. Repentance is a talent which has a cast time now but no one takes it. Blinding Light requires close range as well.

The only good thing I can take from all this is that warriors and mages won't hurt quite as much in 5.2, but rogues will be everywhere, and ret is already weak versus rogues.


Why do we have to wait 6-8 months in order to play a spec we love?

Its sad that its come to this but I've just finished lvling my warrior >.< My heals were awesome before nerf albiet a little OP but now they are just laughable, offheals are there for a reason not to be nerfed to shit so we cant compete with classes that have more survivability via defensive cd's sure we have magic reduction but thats not much use when getting stunned for like a 1/2 hour by a rogue or when a warrior goes batshit crazy on you.

[Harakhte]

I've got to full disagree w/the OP.

I kind of see where GC is coming from. I don't think he means we're fine right now, even GC has acknowledged there is issues w/PvP currently.

I think his tweet means that we're fine for the long term, once the burst has been toned down and healing fixed, as he's mentioned.

And while we are not #1 pick for RBGs, we are more than viable. A GOOD ret using his CD's correctly is a strong opponent that you cannot get rid of easily and our support to the team is virtually unmatched. I can't tell you how often I've saved my healers through Selfless Healer or just WoG spam - or anyone else on my team.

Also, having a hpal and ret pal is awesome for Temple - BoP cycling to reset stacks helps keep us in control of orbs much longer.

Anyway, I've taken GC's comment to mean that once he's scaled down the FOTM classes (as they are doing) Ret's current damage is where most other classes will be as well.

[silverhatred]

A GOOD ret using his CD's correctly is a strong opponent that you cannot get rid of easily and our support to the team is virtually unmatched. I can't tell you how often I've saved my healers through Selfless Healer or just WoG spam - or anyone else on my team.

Also, having a hpal and ret pal is awesome for Temple - BoP cycling to reset stacks helps keep us in control of orbs much longer.

Anyway, I've taken GC's comment to mean that once he's scaled down the FOTM classes (as they are doing) Ret's current damage is where most other classes will be as well.

It is matched. Completely actually, by the holy spec, which is actually good at its role. Ret having all of its cds in a short window every 3-5 minutes means that in a competitive situation you are getting cc'd and kited for those durations. Emancipate is great for getting to where you need to go, but slows and roots and dazes and everything are so common you lose damage whether you emancipate or just try to use abilities slowed. The utility ret brings is also at a high cost to its damage through gcds and holy power.

Im really done with how they are balancing pvp. The foundation is flawed. Making abilities scale differently in pvp and pve is already in progress they just don't want to go there all the way just yet, and its costing the game.

[Woceip]

Dispellable
Dispellable
Dispellable

can't do that while silenced
can't do that while silenced
can't do that while silenced

ret doesn't really take repentance, only holy does. ret's capacity for instant cc hasn't really changed at all since wolk, we have 2 weak instant instant ccs, one is just aoe now.

You do realize that instant CC is something that's been taken for granted and they're trying to move away from it? I realize that may sounds hypocritical from seeing as I'm a monk, and we just got our instant cc buffed, but chew on this: you don't have your hardest hitting move being a channeled effect, often referred to as the 'self-root'.

Really, all this doomsaying is ridiculous anyway. Have you even tested the changes? Go on the PTR, do some pvp, THEN send some constructive feedback. These are iterative changes. They can and will be modified with feedback. Or maybe you'll find that it's not the end of the world. Go figure.

[Matrlx]

Oh No No NO
ill take The PTR Tester Comments
but sorry i loled when u said we are more viable the thing is i always check Wow forums Eu , and US
Eu forums - Class forums - Paladins : ppl Are raging about the state of Retribution paladin ( PVP )
Eu forums - PVP - Arena Rated battleground : 2 threads , first Thread is HIGH RATED AND CLOSED coz it reach the limit of Posting Second thread is the Part 2 of the first Thread and still no a single blue post for these threads
Us forums - Class Forums - Paladins : there is only PVe - and they say paladin is fine , and even so some Rages about the current state of Ret Pve but
i got curious to know why there is no PVP thread in class forums and they argue that Ret is fine @ the moment , i checked every single account armory
here it goes :
*Many of them just do LFR no Serious PVE Ach , ( these pala saying Ret is fine )
*Many of them DOnt have Rated BGS , Arena Ranks ( these pala dont play Real PVP !!! )
* Many of them just talk about BGs and how they dominate
what i Realised the Majority Of Retribution Paladin In US Has Decreased a Lot , Most of them have Retribution as a second Spec

[laughtrey]

Anyone who's played ret a good chunk in PVP/RBGs knows your role is that of support melee with some burst.

You can stick on people really well with freedom, and you would probably have clemency in Arenas so you have 2 HoFreedoms. You have sacrifice, which helps slow down damage if the enemy team is on a single target and with clemency you can negate a hard-swap or cleave if you get the right targets. Sacred shield, WoGs, Instant-Free flash of lights, this is all really useful stuff to use on your team if you do it often and correctly.

Problem is is that Holy Paladins can do all that stuff and are the best single-target/FC healers and sturdiest in the game right now so you'd probably take one anyway. Why fill up a melee slot that would go to a frost dk or a warrior or even an even more utility rogue when you can just get all the benefits of having a paladin in a holy paladin?

They need to completely kill rets survivability and up it's damage to bring us up to par with warriors and dks. Lower the Guardian Buff so we don't get too out of control and if anyone should have an auto-heal ability at -35% it should be Ret paladins, not Warriors. It should also be limited procs on a timer like the old sacred shield used to be.


That still won't do much, but it'll make it easier to pick up a ret instead of just looking for a warrior.

just a note: i went holy instead of waiting around for a ret buff. With the way the class is designed I don't think ret will ever be viable as long as warriors are. So we can't really wait around for a ret buff because that's just French for "Warrior Nerf" and that's not happening anytime soon.

[Palatinus]

Problem is is that Holy Paladins can do all that stuff and are the best single-target/FC healers and sturdiest in the game right now so you'd probably take one anyway. Why fill up a melee slot that would go to a frost dk or a warrior or even an even more utility rogue when you can just get all the benefits of having a paladin in a holy paladin?

I think they need to do this with most of the hybrids. Look at all the healer melee hybrids, feral/enhance/ret....they all aren't really viable in a RBG and aside from the odd comp in arena (cough ferals cough), they aren't the strongest there either. They need to better separate the specs, in terms of paladins, holy brings everything that's worth mentioning about ret. With the new talent system, I can't really think of anything ret brings that holy + any other melee don't. So why bother with the ret, bring holy, and bring any other melee that has had all the stuff ret has now since TBC/Wotlk + any 'better' goodies (MS/NS/Cyclone/Purge).

[dodonpachi]

I was really surprised at gc's tweets on ret in pvp. I don't play but I do see them in pvp and they are easy as pie to counter.

[Psykotiq]

Just throwing my 2 cents in here lol I have played a ret pally since day one. Ret has had it's highs and its lows just like many other classes/specs. We are no doubt currently in a low end with no light at the end of the tunnel. I have not PvP'd with my Retadin for a pretty long time now because I just can't stomach it. I'm not sure if it would make it better to nerf other classes or to buff pallies but yeah something has to be done to make it more viable. This also counts for PvE too though, my burst damage puts me right below most mages the big difference is they can sustain the level of damage and I gradually fall off. Once CD's are off I still can't catch them, believe me though I do come pretty damn close. Now when I want to PvP I log over to my Rogue so I'm really not sure what the post about rogues being under represented is all about, if anything I really see them coming back stronger these days.
Again this is just my 2 cents, and personally I am NOT a Ghostcrawler fan and do believe the game may be better off without him.

[-KeenaM-]

I've always felt good about ret PvP. I don't know why everyone is complaining.

[Valedus]

I've always felt good about ret PvP. I don't know why everyone is complaining.

What's your arena rating? RBG rating?

Everyone saying Ret is fine, here's a tip: Walk into arena, see Ret pally on other team... train him. He bubbles, swap for 8 seconds, and train him. He has no other defensive CD's or capability.
And about damage? I swapped to my feral who doesn't even have a PvP weapon yet and I DESTROY people in comparison from my damage. I can also, during my burst phase, CC instantly. (Granted, they are recieving nerfs, but this is stuff that should have been adressed in 5.1)

Ret survivability is in no way fine. It needs a pretty interesting, unique ability, or I seriously believe people are going to just continue to jump ship to the FOTM class, like warriors this season.

[Deleted]

It's a CC that you can never cast.

Yeah it's awesome.

Yea, I never get any Cyclones or Roots off, because they are casted. I see your point! /sarcasm off

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 10:03 PM ----------

Don't even get me started on the supporting aspect of Ret palas.

Can BoP CC on teammates.
Can Sac polymorphs, blinds, warrior fears, Blinding Lights, Repentances etc.
Got fine CC - I don't care if it's casted or not. It's still CC!
Can freedom partners to make them stick on enemies.

Other than that, they have a VERY high burst with barely no ramp-up time, great mobility, heals (You have heals, don't deny it), 8 second immunity that works like a trinket aswell (except for clones), a hard hitting ranged attack (judgement) and exorcism (Hammer of Wrath aswell when Wings are used), a guardian you cannot CC nor kill (which hit rather hard aswell).

I really cannot see why you complain about your survivability, when you got that huge of a kit of spells to use.
If ret's survivability was as good as a Blood DK, you would surely be happy, but would it be balanced? Close to balanced? No, right?!
So look on ALL your VERY positive abilities, and stop crying.

[Deleted]

Yea, I never get any Cyclones or Roots off, because they are casted. I see your point! /sarcasm off

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 10:03 PM ----------

Don't even get me started on the supporting aspect of Ret palas.

Can BoP CC on teammates.
Can Sac polymorphs, blinds, warrior fears, Blinding Lights, Repentances etc.
Got fine CC - I don't care if it's casted or not. It's still CC!
Can freedom partners to make them stick on enemies.

Other than that, they have a VERY high burst with barely no ramp-up time, great mobility, heals (You have heals, don't deny it), 8 second immunity that works like a trinket aswell (except for clones), a hard hitting ranged attack (judgement) and exorcism (Hammer of Wrath aswell when Wings are used), a guardian you cannot CC nor kill (which hit rather hard aswell).

I really cannot see why you complain about your survivability, when you got that huge of a kit of spells to use.
If ret's survivability was as good as a Blood DK, you would surely be happy, but would it be balanced? Close to balanced? No, right?!
So look on ALL your VERY positive abilities, and stop crying.

Please read the entire topic properly. All of our concerns regarding ret have been voiced here already.

Ret is weak in arenas at the moment. It doesn't matter how many tools a spec has if those tools are useless.

You almost sound jealous of ret paladins. Maybe play one if you think they are so good? You will need to be good at doing a million things at the same time in order to reach high ratings, but since ret is weak at the moment, it's not really worth it. You'd be working twice as hard to be half as good as a DK.

No one takes repentance because it's very easy to shut down ret and stop a melee casting. Just go look at the ladders.

[Reith]

Yea, I never get any Cyclones or Roots off, because they are casted. I see your point! /sarcasm off

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 10:03 PM ----------

Don't even get me started on the supporting aspect of Ret palas.

Can BoP CC on teammates.
Can Sac polymorphs, blinds, warrior fears, Blinding Lights, Repentances etc.
Got fine CC - I don't care if it's casted or not. It's still CC!
Can freedom partners to make them stick on enemies.

Other than that, they have a VERY high burst with barely no ramp-up time, great mobility, heals (You have heals, don't deny it), 8 second immunity that works like a trinket aswell (except for clones), a hard hitting ranged attack (judgement) and exorcism (Hammer of Wrath aswell when Wings are used), a guardian you cannot CC nor kill (which hit rather hard aswell).

I really cannot see why you complain about your survivability, when you got that huge of a kit of spells to use.
If ret's survivability was as good as a Blood DK, you would surely be happy, but would it be balanced? Close to balanced? No, right?!
So look on ALL your VERY positive abilities, and stop crying.

Why do I get the feeling that you're just angry at getting owned by a way better player than you?

[Ranaas]

to all those complaining about retri pvp , is there any better melees around atm , other than warriors? All melee suffers a lot atm and GC does't do anything about it and believe me , DKs and monks are way worse atm.