Ret and PvP - GC giving us the middle finger.

[isadorr]

As with any PVP changes or non changes, PVP is not as important as PVE and that has been stated many times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8q02BQFLY

In the video the developer's say it and it has been said many many times that PVP take a backseat to PVE balancing. GC and Chilton were asked what is the biggest mistake they have made and the answer was: PVP.

[Riptide]

As with any PVP changes or non changes, PVP is not as important as PVE and that has been stated many times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8q02BQFLY

In the video the developer's say it and it has been said many many times that PVP take a backseat to PVE balancing. GC and Chilton were asked what is the biggest mistake they have made and the answer was: PVP.

You realize that's Jay Wilson talking about diablo 3, right? Btw, neither Chilton or GC worked on WoW until BC - you know after pvp?

[Deleted]

you're kidding right? the only reason why that was even remotely happening is because r-tards were crit stacking instead of strength stacking, rets were in a insanely good spot in TBC, they provided raid wide mana regen when mana was actually a huge issue; it was like having a melee shadowpriest but instead of the shadowpriest being the mana battery for the party the ret was for the entire raid

and pvp? Lol; pvp they were FINE.

Ret wasn't viable in PVP in TBC until season 3. Blizz didn't add resilience to our gear until season 3. They were ok then but easily replaced with a rogue. Rets needed cutting edge PVE gear to stay ahead of the game as well back then.

Ret wasn't a good mana battery until Wrath.

Most paladins went holy for the first half of TBC.

[Tangra]

you're kidding right? the only reason why that was even remotely happening is because r-tards were crit stacking instead of strength stacking, rets were in a insanely good spot in TBC, they provided raid wide mana regen when mana was actually a huge issue; it was like having a melee shadowpriest but instead of the shadowpriest being the mana battery for the party the ret was for the entire raid

and pvp? Lol; pvp they were FINE.

You could maybe fit one in to a 25 man, and only after 2.3, when the expansion was almost much over. Ret barely raided for the first half of the expansion, and could do some 3s with a warrior carrying it, also over a year after launch.

[Deleted]

The problem with Ret is we don't have much in the way of survivability, specially considering half the teams past 1500 MMR have a warrior that can just nuke you down to shit in seconds and shatter your bubble. That problem could be ignored if we had decent self healing which we don't. You can run behind a pillar and spam FoL on you, you'll go OOM and have only healed like 30% of your total HP in the best case scenario.

Our damage is fine and obviously tuned around our immensive burst, but since we have little in the way of survivability, as soon as we step inside an arena we'll just get tunneled and absolutely destroyed before our burst our any of our "game saving" utility has any use. And this last part is what makes me think devs are a bit out of touch. In theory Ret is just fine - with clemency we can bring lots of utility to a team, 'tis true, the problem is that we get tunneled so hard that we just can't make any good use of it and that's what the developers seem to be ignoring.

[Tangra]

The problem with Ret is we don't have much in the way of survivability, specially considering half the teams past 1500 MMR have a warrior that can just nuke you down to shit in seconds and shatter your bubble. That problem could be ignored if we had decent self healing which we don't. You can run behind a pillar and spam FoL on you, you'll go OOM and have only healed like 30% of your total HP in the best case scenario.

Our damage is fine and obviously tuned around our immensive burst, but since we have little in the way of survivability, as soon as we step inside an arena we'll just get tunneled and absolutely destroyed before our burst our any of our "game saving" utility has any use. And this last part is what makes me think devs are a bit out of touch. In theory Ret is just fine - with clemency we can bring lots of utility to a team, 'tis true, the problem is that we get tunneled so hard that we just can't make any good use of it and that's what the developers seem to be ignoring.

Yeah, the devs label us as as spec with massive utility, but they forget that most of our utility is best used on others, HoS, HoP, Selfless Healer, yet they have made us into one of the most tempting focus targets in the game, thus negating that utility. Also once again, I think for the first time in this thread a few of us noticed something really disturbing. Every hybrid in the game gets a few powerful tools when going from healer to dps (Solar Beam, Thunderstorm, Spirit Wolves, Silence and Disarm as Shadow, Windwalkers get Fists of Fury and Touch of Karma...) Ret just gets its dps abilities and emancipate in order to be able to function as melee.

Unlike every other hybrid dps, Ret gets no CC that Holy doesn't have, no utility of any sort (holy actually has more utility via Denounce, and our CCs like Repent are also meant for a caster to use), no survivability tools, nothing, just pure dps abilities, and a bit of mobility since we were originally designed to be able to cleanse ourselves from magic, but lost that and were given emancipate.

Look at any other hybrid, everyone gets a utility ability and a personal cooldown for going from healer to dps.

[Velshin]

What I wonder as a paladin class player is that the Holy spec of this class is like a mage class. By saying that I mean there was not a single moment in WoW history that you feel holy spec of paladin is so weak or so unplayable either in pvp or pve..somehow only Ret suffering from this probem. Holy spec paladin is either OP or very good you never see it underpowered ever in pve or pvp.

[Requital]

Ret wasn't viable in PVP in TBC until season 3. Blizz didn't add resilience to our gear until season 3. They were ok then but easily replaced with a rogue. Rets needed cutting edge PVE gear to stay ahead of the game as well back then.

Ret wasn't a good mana battery until Wrath.

Most paladins went holy for the first half of TBC.

I'm sorry but that flat out wrong, I can name a lot of Ret glads from S1 - S4, IMO Ret was better during TBC for PvP and only PvP than it has been since.

[Valedus]

The problem with Ret is we don't have much in the way of survivability, specially considering half the teams past 1500 MMR have a warrior that can just nuke you down to shit in seconds and shatter your bubble. That problem could be ignored if we had decent self healing which we don't. You can run behind a pillar and spam FoL on you, you'll go OOM and have only healed like 30% of your total HP in the best case scenario.

Our damage is fine and obviously tuned around our immensive burst, but since we have little in the way of survivability, as soon as we step inside an arena we'll just get tunneled and absolutely destroyed before our burst our any of our "game saving" utility has any use. And this last part is what makes me think devs are a bit out of touch. In theory Ret is just fine - with clemency we can bring lots of utility to a team, 'tis true, the problem is that we get tunneled so hard that we just can't make any good use of it and that's what the developers seem to be ignoring.

This exactly. Clemency and such allows us to have insane team utility, it's true. Problem is Holy can grab it.
Also, BoSac and BoP are just further reasons to train the pally to death.
Perhaps Sac should instead make us and the target share damage taken from players? So, for instance, we could throw it on our other dps if we are getting trained and take less damage?
As of right now, Ret pally is the automatic target in an arena setting and our utility has no use if our partners are not getting attacked.

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 04:41 PM ----------

Yeah, the devs label us as as spec with massive utility, but they forget that most of our utility is best used on others, HoS, HoP, Selfless Healer, yet they have made us into one of the most tempting focus targets in the game, thus negating that utility. Also once again, I think for the first time in this thread a few of us noticed something really disturbing. Every hybrid in the game gets a few powerful tools when going from healer to dps (Solar Beam, Thunderstorm, Spirit Wolves, Silence and Disarm as Shadow, Windwalkers get Fists of Fury and Touch of Karma...) Ret just gets its dps abilities and emancipate in order to be able to function as melee.

Unlike every other hybrid dps, Ret gets no CC that Holy doesn't have, no utility of any sort (holy actually has more utility via Denounce, and our CCs like Repent are also meant for a caster to use), no survivability tools, nothing, just pure dps abilities, and a bit of mobility since we were originally designed to be able to cleanse ourselves from magic, but lost that and were given emancipate.

Look at any other hybrid, everyone gets a utility ability and a personal cooldown for going from healer to dps.

I think that is probably the biggest issue, now that I realize it. There's no reason to bring a Ret Pally over another melee when you can bring a Holy Paladin for the same utility and grab a tougher dps, a la warrior or soon to be rogues/monks.

Just wish the devs would realize this instead of claiming Ret is fine. Almost every other Ret paladin I know in game has jumped ship after years of playing the spec.

[Tangra]

This exactly. Clemency and such allows us to have insane team utility, it's true. Problem is Holy can grab it.
Also, BoSac and BoP are just further reasons to train the pally to death.
Perhaps Sac should instead make us and the target share damage taken from players? So, for instance, we could throw it on our other dps if we are getting trained and take less damage?
As of right now, Ret pally is the automatic target in an arena setting and our utility has no use if our partners are not getting attacked.

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 04:41 PM ----------



I think that is probably the biggest issue, now that I realize it. There's no reason to bring a Ret Pally over another melee when you can bring a Holy Paladin for the same utility and grab a tougher dps, a la warrior or soon to be rogues/monks.

Just wish the devs would realize this instead of claiming Ret is fine. Almost every other Ret paladin I know in game has jumped ship after years of playing the spec.

Yeah, not that Ret has every been particularly good for more than a month or two once in a blue moon, but MoP was really a huge step back in terms of utility. They gutted everything that was unique about Ret and put it in the shared talent tree for Holy to take. Just look at our talent tree, it has something like 7 abilities that used to be Ret only: Pursuit of Justice, Long Arm of the Law, Repent, Selfless Healer, Sacred Shield, Holy Avenger (Zealotry), Divine Purpose.

Talents that used to be for Holy only:...drum-roll... Speed of Light.

Ret ended up sharing everything it has with Holy, and virtually nothing from Holy ended up being shared with Ret.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but that flat out wrong, I can name a lot of Ret glads from S1 - S4, IMO Ret was better during TBC for PvP and only PvP than it has been since.

S1-2 I highly doubt (when res was non-existent on gear). S3 and 4 sure.

Ret was only balanced towards the end of TBC and even then it wasn't that good. You liked refreshing Seal of Command after using it and waiting for damage to happen? However, criting with Judgement on stunned targets was nice.


Ret was at its peak during Wrath. It was balanced through much of Cata but you had to be good at playing a hybrid to make it work, or play triple DPS and faceroll in 4.3 but even then you had to both DPS enemies and heal allies at the same time.

[Lap]

The Retribution spec has always been one of my favourite specs in the game, and people complaining about it never being 'changed' or 'improved' over time really need to think about where this game is heading.
Would I take a retribution paladin, even an ex-glad in t2 to my 2.2+ rbgs? Probably not, purely because retribution is not a great spec for pure pressure in rbgs. I'd maybe think about it if I didn't have a hunter or rogue for solo defending a node, as they're AMAZING at it. Trinket, mediocre self-heals, bubble, guardian of kings - these abilities make Ret one of THE best node defenders, so if you're having trouble convincing people to take you, try mentioning that.
Anyway, I love my ret pally and i'm glad it has stayed true to its nature, that is - being a support melee. There is enough class homogenisation going on in this game, I don't play a warrior or a dk, and I don't want my ret to feel like one.
Just my 2cents XD

[Fiddlesnarf]

mediocre self-heals

Pretty sure our self heals aren't even mediocre.

[Reith]

Pretty sure our self heals aren't even mediocre.

~32k every 6-7 seconds assuming you're always on target and simultaneously sacrifices all your templar's verdict damage, the mastery damage from it and the seal damage... pretty mediocre.

[Valedus]

~32k every 6-7 seconds assuming you're always on target and simultaneously sacrifices all your templar's verdict damage, the mastery damage from it and the seal damage... pretty mediocre.

I think he was saying they are less than mediocre, and I agree. They are pretty crappy.
If I saw a ret as a node holder, all i would care about is bubble. So we send the warrior or shadow priest anyway...

[Bigbamboozal]

all these abilities come with instant cast variations. repentance does not.



depends on the dk actually, my dk is perfectly capable of ccing while silenced because his cc is based on his pet. i'm fairly sure feral druids can cyclone while silenced, PS is however dispellable. please get your facts right.

silencing ret paladins is a very good way to counter their defensives as it locks them out of their snare breaks and their defensive cooldowns. if you can't land a CS on a healer, but are trying to pressure a ret silencing them is a very viable stratagy.



you really don't understand how one sets up cc chains do you....

just because i can HoF up to a healer doesn't mean that healer isn't going to pillar away from me, have me cced, ground it, ect...

'if it weren't for x I would...'
When playing this game, a person comes up with a problem, and the supporting cast tries to come up with solutions, but gasp! nothing will do to fix this problem. The main player pisses and moans all the while finding ways to shit on every idea.
Until every player present is left shoe gazing with a depressed hmmm.

Yah...lots of fun....if you like looking at the world through shit flavored glasses.

Yes you CAN get pillared by that heals, but you know, just as easy, you can catch them unawares...just like my apt description of your most certainly unaware sociological game took you by SU-PRRRRREEEEEESE. (giggle)
Don't feel bad, I get the frustration, having played ret spec on and off the better part of 6 years, but no need to browbeat people in a nasty way...
and don't worry, most people do that sort of ritualistic game on a daily basis, I just thought it would be fun to mix it up a bit...and really, I'm gonna play that game in about 5 minutes when my dinner comes here at the hospital....gotta have some fun somehow

[Freia]

What I wonder as a paladin class player is that the Holy spec of this class is like a mage class. By saying that I mean there was not a single moment in WoW history that you feel holy spec of paladin is so weak or so unplayable either in pvp or pve..somehow only Ret suffering from this probem. Holy spec paladin is either OP or very good you never see it underpowered ever in pve or pvp.

Holy was actually pretty weak arena wise last season. It was all shaman and disc priests. Holy had a place in rated bgs but if you wanted to arena you were better off ret.

[Fuzzski]

So warrior is keeping the 3% to SW YAAAAAA *sarcasm face* Yet my flash heals hit for 24k and i can cast two of them... The time it takes me to do that they heal for more and Do not need manna. Also if I want to WOG I lose damg.

[Reith]

So warrior is keeping the 3% to SW YAAAAAA *sarcasm face* Yet my flash heals hit for 24k and i can cast two of them... The time it takes me to do that they heal for more and Do not need manna. Also if I want to WOG I lose damg.

Defensive Stance is getting nerfed for Arms though which is what I personally thought needed to happen. 25% reduced damage is pretty ridiculous. Every time they get below 35% they'd just switch to Defensive Stance and basically be a tank. It even mitigates spell damage.

[Vathius]

Yeah, not that Ret has every been particularly good for more than a month or two once in a blue moon, but MoP was really a huge step back in terms of utility. They gutted everything that was unique about Ret and put it in the shared talent tree for Holy to take. Just look at our talent tree, it has something like 7 abilities that used to be Ret only: Pursuit of Justice, Long Arm of the Law, Repent, Selfless Healer, Sacred Shield, Holy Avenger (Zealotry), Divine Purpose.

Talents that used to be for Holy only:...drum-roll... Speed of Light.

Ret ended up sharing everything it has with Holy, and virtually nothing from Holy ended up being shared with Ret.

wow I never saw it that way b4. I feel so jipped