I think my country was better in communism...

[semaphore]

There is no such thing as "Human Nature"

And your evidence for this claim is what, thin air?

[Knight Gil]

And your evidence for this claim is what, thin air?

What defines humanity is it's capability of overcoming simple natural instincts. Humans' identity is extremely dependant on culture, not merely on DNA and natural tendencies. A human who would be defined as selfish and greedy in one culture / familiar background / neighbourhood / etc could be grown as altruistic and empathetic in other. If a human grows in a violent family, with an alcoholic father and whatnot, there are chances he will become violent too, whether if he is adopted by a caring and nurturing family, chances are that won't happen. Sure, there's DNA coded on each one of us. But it's role is limited. I didn't learn to write or turn a TV on because of my DNA. Hell, one could say that certain behaviours of mine (confidence / lack of it or extroversion / introversion) are the exact opposite of what my "nature" is supposed to be. But I learned those behaviours with time. I wasn't born that way.

Want more solid "Evidence"? Feral childs. Look into it. Further proof that a human is only so when he overcomes nature.


That's why saying "Human Nature" is an oxymoron, a fallacy, and has no coherent meaning at all. I wish people would drop that term already.

[Cybran]

Which totally doesn't happen these days. You still have someone else's hand in your pocket, democracy just gave an opportunity for everyone to steal to their delight. Now, not only government deceives you, but all these companies selling you crap that you don't actually need do so too.

My parents have been running their own small business for over 15 years. Trying to make something and build a business will never be easy, but at least after the fall of communism they were allowed to work for themselves.

I look at my country's past 20 years and what do I see? Industry is dead. Totally dead. Russia no longer builds anything, what we still have is either outdated or rudimentary. Russian cars are crap, Russian weapons are still running on a generation-old basis of ideas and research. Latest space programs are miniscule and even they fail miserably. But yes, we have freedom of speech - which means you can't even turn on the TV without utter shit flooding the room. You only hear that everything's fine and we're moving towards a greater future, while everyone knows it's a lie and the government is corrupted through and through. Oncу they retire, they flee to some other, better country. The shipyard in my city, once big and meaningful, lies in ruins. New houses built often have defects. Other than that the only thing that grows like mushrooms after the rain are stupid trade centres with loads of things not worth a half their price. No one wants to work anymore. There are shitloads of economists, managers, advertisers, people that produce nothing and get paid for it. Market economy runs the show now, and it's only meaning is to feed marketologists, managers and other leeches by forcing us to buy and consume.

The Situation is the same here. We have the World bank, EU and NPOs barking orders and regulations. The Communst Industry crumbled, because it was not able to compete. It was slow and its workers were lazy and unmotivated. This was all bred by the Communist doctrine. The motto of the workers 23 years ago was "He pretends he is paying and i pretend i am working". Don't get me started on the lack of freedom. So many people were killed for speaking out.

Communism destroyed workers ethics and the sense of community.

[Zka]

Hungarian here.

I really hate people who think it was so good back then in the communism. They don't understand that the whole thing was economically unsustainable and it has put our country into deep debt we still could not escape from. Communism was funded by the soviet block, then later on loans by Germany (West-Germany back then), then IMF (yes, really). Actually these loans forced the change of system. We still pay these debts. Everything you saw in the communist era was a lie. You could not afford these infrastructure. You did not produce as much as you received. And so on.

The people are ignorant of this. The mindset of the average hungarian is still anticapitalist and/or communist. They want all kinds of free services, they want work opportunities provided by the government, while they absolutely lack any kind of skill that has value for the modern economy.
This mindset guarantees failure. We are already at 0 or negative GDP growth, while less idiotic ex-communist countries are still expanding by 3-5% per year. This would not be a problem, but about 30-50% of the country is literally at the edge of famine, they cannot pay their bills and such.

Ah I almost forgot that the country is brutally aging because the communist idiots invented the 3 years long maternity leave (this nonsense is still in effect!!!) and made a huge baby boom around the 60s-70s. The demographic timebomb is still ticking, but the effects are already felt heavily.

For the reasons above, this country is beyond repair. No wonder that the most skilled and intelligent people have recently began to emigrate in droves.

The ONLY thing that was indeed better in communism stems from the censorship. Censorship did not let esoteric, religious, racist or other antiscientific crap to pollute people's mind.

[Deleted]

The reason why communism is a total and resounding fail is that it forces people to give up their resources to the government.

Hmm seems you know something about communism, so perhaps you can help me. I’ve always thought that communism was, in the original meaning, a state of human existence where no government was present, that all lived in cohesion/unity/etc. But you say that communism has a government, or perhaps we’re talking about different types of “communism”?

[Cybran]

Ah I almost forgot that the country is brutally aging because the communist idiots invented the 3 years long maternity leave (this nonsense is still in effect!!!) and made a huge baby boom around the 60s-70s. The demographic timebomb is still ticking, but the effects are already felt heavily.

At the moment there are around 1 million people like me who work in private companies and more than 2 million pensioners. My taxes go to pay for 2 pensioners and 1 unemployed person. No wonder that we are the fastest dying nation in the EU.

[DaveL]

I am also a Czech citizen and I do not agree. Communism is the worst thing that ever been.

^this

People saying how awesome it was in communism, never really encountered it, mostly born post 1985´s and dreaming how awesome it surer was. No. If you REALLY knew how it really was, you should never (even think) want it back in any form. Be happy for that clowns and idiots in our/your goverment. They are far way better than communist were.

/speaking for Czech citizens who lived in that mess.

[semaphore]

What defines humanity is it's capability of overcoming simple natural instincts.

Yes that is a totally valid reason for arguing that those natural instincts therefore don't exist. Oh wait, that actually don't make any sense whatsoever.

Our culture is built from natural tendencies. We seek out human interaction because we are genetically programmed to be social animals, and that is the basis of human civilisation. Everything around you derives from human nature.

Sure, there's DNA coded on each one of us. But it's role is limited. I didn't learn to write or turn a TV on because of my DNA.

That's why saying "Human Nature" is an oxymoron, a fallacy, and has no coherent meaning at all. I wish people would drop that term already.

You might even be making any sense whatsoever if anyone applies human nature to "write" or "turn on TV". But nobody except you does that, which means this is just a pile of straws in your strawman argument.

Want more solid "Evidence"?

I want any actual evidence, not this mess of incoherent gibberish you just wrote, which amounted to "there is no human nature IF I redefine the phrase completely to mean some strawman nonsense".

[Wikiy]

Which is why Karl Marx was a retard.

Ugh.

OT: This argument that communism goes against human nature is a rather silly one if you ask me. There are countries where there are more people that are altruistic enough for communism than there are people that are greedy enough for capitalism. So yeah, how does your anti-communist "human nature" account for that? What a silly argument. There is no universal human nature.

[Knight Gil]

Yes that is a totally valid reason for arguing that those natural instincts therefore don't exist. Oh wait, that actually don't make any sense whatsoever.

I didn't say that natural instincts didn't exist. I said that what people usually mean by "Human nature" is utter garbage, because even if natural instincts exist, the human species isn't entirely driven by it.

Our culture is built from natural tendencies. We seek out human interaction because we are genetically programmed to be social animals, and that is the basis of human civilisation. Everything around you derives from human nature.

Actually, the entire meaning of culture is about something that makes you get away from the natural world. It is natural to piss and take a shit in any place, whenever you want it, but you won't do it. You are taught to hold it and do it in the toilet. We seek out human interaction because we are genetically programmed? Not entirely. Many people seek human interaction because culture, marketing for example, teaches you that you are only as cool as how many facebook friends you have.

Rape is also a natural thing. Culturally, it is frowned upon. Laws are cultural. There are laws against rape, because people know that civilization only works if you overcome natural instincts. The laws of attraction are instinctive. However, you don't just act upon them, because that is considered sexual assault.

In the same way, greed is taught by culture. You are taught to be greedy and envious when marketing incentives you to buy the coolest car possible to look better than your neighbour. In nature, you need to survive, and in order to do so, you need to rely on your community, and share whatever you have. You can't be greedy, because in nature you'll just be ostracised by your peers, not envied by them. In nature, you share your fruits with your community. In culture, you accumulate the most "fruits" possible because supposedly that will give you prestige. And even if you might say that while the leader of a wolf pack usually spares the biggest part of the hunt to him, that is totally different from that situation. Because the person who accumulates the most goods isn't necessarily the strongest one. In nature, it's brawl over brains. Today, we have science, highly complex economics, art, technology, etc, and that is what defines humanity. Only some species have some form of basic economics. Everything else from that list is not natural. We are not a natural species. There is no human nature.

You might even be making any sense whatsoever if anyone applies human nature to "write" or "turn on TV". But nobody except you does that, which means this is just a pile of straws in your strawman argument.

Not my problem you can't grasp the logical fallacy in your argument, just don't try to turn it against myself, when I'm the one trying to show the problem with your reasoning. And mindlessly calling other arguments "strawman" just because you don't agree with them or can't understand them doesn't make them so. Come back with better arguments of your own, please

I want any actual evidence, not this mess of incoherent gibberish you just wrote, which amounted to "there is no human nature IF I redefine the phrase completely to mean some strawman nonsense".

How despicable that you dismissed the rest of that line just to suit your argument. How despicable. You just lost all credibility and I won't bother with you further until you address that line.

[Deleted]

This topic makes me sad. No communism was not better then democracy for our country (Romania) the only ones that liked it back there were the hardcore communists the ones that worked for our secret service (Sercuritatea).

They were the ones that made files on every citizen, they often lied to put the subject in a bad light so he could get arrested. They gained from that, make "nationlize" his house, force his wife to leave him and then remarry with her, steal his stashed away money...

On top of that you had an "elite" community that ruled with the dictator, they were not elected and not smart or sharp at all. They had 0 contributions, that's how they were choosen. A stupid person would kiss the leaders ass more and not question his judgment where a smart person will not do that.

So you had a fucked up system, where you had no free market, no real economy, no real intellectuals and no choice on what you want to do with your life, either as in what job to have (state gave you a job once you finished uni), who to marry, where to live. On top of that you add a police state, where prosecutors would get signed blank warrents so they could arrest and charge you with anything.

It was a state of terror for the person that likes to actually live his own life, even if in this democracy you are "guided" or "persuaded" to do something, you still have a choice.

While the rest, the ones that were stupid, dumb or maybe mediocre and comfy could comply to what orders they would get, not question anything and hope the state would provide. Because why not, ignorance is bliss!

And as a TL;DR: OP topic makes me sad and sick at the same time, almost ashamend he thinks this way after all he read/experienced maybe about communism. Add to that the people that died at our revolution so it just denigrates there names also. At least they had the balls to do something, anything, to change even one thing into something better that now we actually benefit from.

[Cybran]

OT: This argument that communism goes against human nature is a rather silly one if you ask me. There are countries where there are more people that are altruistic enough for communism than there are people that are greedy enough for capitalism.

That is racist.

[Reeve]

They were the ones that made files on every citizen, they often lied to put the subject in a bad light so he could get arrested. They gained from that, make "nationlize" his house, force his wife to leave him and then remarry with her, steal his stashed away money...

Sounds a lot like the Roman practice of prescription. That totally sucks.

---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 02:23 PM ----------

It is in fact quite like that. But we already knew with as much certainty as we can know anything that the Earth is round, long before Magellan. Direct confirmation is monumental to achieve, but science has established the facts from circumstantial evidence beforehand.



I don't know, maybe something like the development of the theory of evolution, or special and general relativity, the invention of electrical generation. Or something.



But we did know that. We just don't have direct evidence.

Science is all about making a hypothesis and then testing it. It's a bit silly to say making the hypothesis is a huge accomplishment in science, but the testing of the hypothesis isn't.

[RicardoZ]

There's a lot of people in Chile who would agree with you and say that the government of Allende was the greatest point in this country's history, but it's mostly kids who weren't alive in 1973 when a loaf a bread cost about $10 and you could only get one pack of cigarettes per week because the government was rationing them out because there was a shortage. (Meanwhile the friends of Allende could get all they wanted because they were "special" and "deserved" the products "more" than the rest of the people)

You had to wait in line at stores for hours to buy vegetables or fruit and you had to pay the absurd prices that the government demanded for "their" products even though you were the one who was working 15 hours a day to produce those goods.

The only way to get anything was to be best friends with the government and pray that they will pick you to be wealthy and let you be in charge of some business, because they won't let you start up your own and work hard. It was like a big gated rep grind: No matter how hard you work or how much you try, they put the limit on how much you can acheive.

Yea...communism pretty much sucks. I know it's all fashionable for Americans and Europeans kids to like it and wear Che Guevara t-shirts and everything and be rebellious against capitalism, but...Communism really REALLY sucks.

There is a poet from China named Kelly Tsai who talks about this phenomenon of rich American and Euro kids be enamored with communism, I think she is right:

[Deleted]

Sounds a lot like the Roman practice of prescription. That totally sucks.
---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 02:23 PM ----------

Most akward and still mindblowing part of it is that now we got a an organism to investigate all the "communism crimes" and try to find out who was an informant, who was an officer and what they did. But they barely do anything, we have no laws to ban such people from taking a public job as most ex-communist countries have.

And a lot of ex-communist hardcore people as in judges, freight captains and others, persons that could not have had the job unless they have proven themself as a good informant and hardcore communist beliver, it seems their files are missing or are coded so not to reveal their identity. So now they occupy public and important jobs, they are "born again" democrats or liberal or <insert any political useless ideology> and praise for the democratic state yet they work and think about the same as before.

That for the political and justice aspect of things. But still after that you are left with a democracy, while not as perfect or real as some others have it's still a democracy. You can walk down the street at night, you can joke about politics, you can apply to what job you want and do w/e you want in general.

[Deleted]

I worked with a good few Romanians a couple of years ago. From all over the country. To my surprise the oldest members of the team, the ones that lived communism on their skin, weren't the ones criticising it.
A couple of them were actually stating how through unemployment and emigration Romania is far worse now.
I was surprised and got me thinking.
Maybe all we know about that part of the world and that era isn't exactly true.

You know, Cold War and all... Misinformation... Could it not be?

[Deleted]

I worked with a good few Romanians a couple of years ago. From all over the country. To my surprise the oldest members of the team, the ones that lived communism on their skin, weren't the ones criticising it.
A couple of them were actually stating how through unemployment and emigration Romania is far worse now.
I was surprised and got me thinking.
Maybe all we know about that part of the world and that era isn't exactly true.

You know, Cold War and all... Misinformation... Could it not be?

Berlin's Wall says otherwise.

[semaphore]

I didn't say that natural instincts didn't exist. I said that what people usually mean by "Human nature" is utter garbage, because even if natural instincts exist, the human species isn't entirely driven by it.

Strawman again. Who said humans are "entirely driven" by natural instincts? Nobody. Except you.

If the whole basis of your argument is still "there is no human nature IF I change the meaning of human nature into some bullshit that nobody actually use!" then there's not much debate to be had.

It is natural to piss and take a shit in any place, whenever you want it

No it isn't. We instinctively dislike the smell of our own excretions, that's why there is no culture where you pee and defecate on your own bed.

We seek out human interaction because we are genetically programmed? Not entirely. Many people seek human interaction because culture, marketing for example, teaches you that you are only as cool as how many facebook friends you have.

No, you're cherrypicking the facts to suit your argument. Human are social animals. We naturally seek social interactions. Culture and marketing influence many to seek a specific type of interaction (on facebook), but they do not provide the impetus for socialisation in the first place. Think about what you just wrote. Nurture may be responsible for you wanting facebook friends in order to appear cool, but why do you want to appear cool in the first place?

Gaining status in the eyes of our peers is an inherently social thing.

Not my problem you can't grasp the logical fallacy in your argument, just don't try to turn it against myself, when I'm the one trying to show the problem with your reasoning.

What argument? You claimed that human nature doesn't exist. I challenged you to provide evidence. Dont' move the goal post to "problem with your reasoning" when you still haven't been able to show that human nature doesn't exist other than 1) pretending it means something it doesn't, i.e. strawman or 2) completely ignore reality.

calling other arguments "strawman" just because you don't agree with them

I called them like I see them. Don't use strawmans if you don't want to be called on it.

How despicable that you dismissed the rest of that line

How overly dramatic of you to feign outrage just because I'm not willing to do your homework for you. You claimed there is no human nature. You need to establish how feral children supports that point - not just "oh look X which means I'm right. Just because".

[Peng]

a) History is written by the winners.
b) My observation makes me think that there is no real democracy. There is always a minority of clever people steering a majority of dumb people with fright and promises.

[Wikiy]

That is racist.

By what logic?