Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[rogoth]

Who cares about 0,01% of the paying customers?

lets see what happens to the game as a whole if the best guilds in the wrold just sddenly stopped playing, lets see how awesome and epic your gaming experience would be, here's a tip, it won't, without these guilds and these players, the encounters would not be the epic clusterfucks they are today, with such tight tuning in places designed to push players, without that, you get humdrum "anybody can do this shit" encounters that are boring and uninteresting, so yeah, blizz care about the 0.0001% of the playerbase, because it is the section that keeps the game rocking in the way that it does.

to give an analogy, it is like running a hotel, the most important ppl aren't the hotel manager, or the snazzy decor, it is the cooks, the cleaners, the security guard, the "vocal minority" that keep things running properly, and keeps the guests the "vocal majority" aka "the whiners" paying and coming back.

[Nebria]

They should also bring in 25 man cauldrons and feasts to make things easier for larger raid teams (I'm talking 300 stat feasts btw). The cauldrons should take 5 of each flask but last twice as long to give a nice buff for 25 raiders. Finally, increase the gold reward for completing 25 man raid challenges to be around 5 times as much as the 10 man. It might not seem like much at first but over a year it'd add up.

while this is a solution for t he more effort this is not what the community wants they want more loot, better loot etc. so even if there is a vendor at the start of 25 man raid who "sells" buff food and flasks for free they would still cry for more/better epics

[Drayarr]

You missed the second part of that.

25 man team progression slows down
best players in 25 leave guild to form their own 10 to progress faster without having to carry anyone.
Guild/Raid leader forced to recruit more people to keep up active roster
Repeat pretty much forever.



Eventually....

Guild/raid leader gives up, drops to 10s only
Anyone still wanting to run 25s forced to find another guild or run their own
Increasingly harder (on some realms impossible) to find a new 25 guild as time goes on
Player gives up and runs 10s

I would much rather play 25's than 10.
However finding a guild doing 25's on my server is near impossible.
Also, 25mans that I've been in personally have a tendency to contain at least 3 people who are shitter than shit and have to be carried.

[traen]

- More gear drops per person
- More battle resses
- Less personal accountability per person

You mean less battle resses, right?

Lets say that average player fails on curtain encounter mechanics once per 10 pulls. Its 10% chance to fail per fight.
The chance that at least one player will die in 25man is 93%. The chance that 3 players will die in the same fight is 80%.
The chance for 1 player to die in 10 man is 66%.

The chance for 2 people to die in the same 10ppl encounter - 43%.
The chance for 6 people to die in the same 25ppl encounter - 64%.

As you can see, you have significantly lower chance to wipe due to random fails in 10man.

Also 6 deaths in 25man - is "casual" limit. I used it just as an example to match 10ppl dps to total raid members ratio.
For hardcore 25 guilds on progression encounters one single dead player means that you won't make it. You have to wipe and start over.

But its not all. On many encounters failing to do something means that you'll kill yourself AND you will kill people around you/wipe raid. The chance for player to fail and to wipe raid is significantly higher. Making learning curve considerably worse.
Using the same math you can calculate the chance that one player out of 25 goes afk/have to open the door/answer important phone call/f*ck his gf/etc. During pool or between them.
Due the same reason you'll get significantly less pulls/hour than in 10man.

So LESS battle resses
Less "personal accountability" but higher personal responsibility(to not wipe raid) due to significantly lower chance "to do everything right" for all 25ppl.

It leaves us with "more gear". But there is no "more gear" on progression runs. You'll start to get more gear when other players already got something and you don't have to disenchant duplicates like you do in 10man. But on progression runs you don't have "duplicates" because no gear dropped for you yet. For first 3-4 weeks the difference in gearing speed is insignificant.
But its true that if will get your BiS gear faster in 25man than in 10man. So if you are loot whore - 25man is definitely for you

[Socialhealer]

Who cares about 0,01% of the paying customers?

isn't that like arena? you hear/see/read posts/watch videos of the best 1% of the players.

who has heard of the other 99% who cant make glad?
all i hear is u care blizz makes money money money, fuck the best players MAKE MORE MONEY, this should make an awesome game just focusing on $$$$.

using your theory.

they should double subscription costs even if half the playerbase quits, they save money on customer support, servers and other things, leading to an overall profit, who cares about poorer people.

[Glurp]

Since they said it won't be pre-upgraded gear as drops maybe gear from 25man will be able to be upgraded 3 times?

[kojinshugi]

One thing it probably isn't, given that he said it was going to be "controversial" is removing the shared lockout. Or higher iLvl gear. Those are things people are expecting and/or want to see.

No, that is totally not what the vast majority want to see. I don't want to run both every week, and while I'm currently in a 25-man guild, I don't want 10-man guilds to get worse gear. Making 25-man raiding the only reasonable avenue for BiS gear is not "incentivizing", it's forcing.

The only reasonable thing about what you suggest is an ilevel difference that can be made up for with VP, similar to the Korean system.

[Veliane]

Why not have 25M drop upgraded gear.

10M is 0/2, 25M is 1/2.

In the end shit's same Ilvl, just takes 750 valor less to cap it for 25M players.

[Marooned]

Remove it entirely please! Go to a single raid size and focus all your raid development time on making excellent bosses, tuned for a single raid size, rather than re-tuning for multiple raid sizes as well as difficulties.

Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen. So just remove 25 mans and let's all go 10 man.

Blizzard are just giving themselves way too much work trying to cater to a very, VERY tiny section of the playerbase. I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.

I think 15 man is stupid, most semi casual guilds I've been inside had already problems gathering 10 stable ppl to raid and for 25 man serious guilds it wont feel as epic. So 15 man will basically kill both good sizes and create a stupid sized raid. I only do 10 man and have no problem if 25 drops better loot, I dont care what other ppl do Ill keep playin 10 man size.

[Stommped]

how is it?
raids drop loot
10man drops the same as 25man
25man drops more.
I fail to see how its "forcing people into 10man"

Because the majority of the bosses in the tier, and every tier prior since the existance of 10man, are easier on 10man. It's forcing people to go that route because it offers the path of least resistance. The slightly extra loot in 25man is not enough to bridge that gap.

[kojinshugi]

lets see what happens to the game as a whole if the best guilds in the wrold just sddenly stopped playing, lets see how awesome and epic your gaming experience would be, here's a tip, it won't, without these guilds and these players, the encounters would not be the epic clusterfucks they are today, with such tight tuning in places designed to push players, without that, you get humdrum "anybody can do this shit" encounters that are boring and uninteresting, so yeah, blizz care about the 0.0001% of the playerbase, because it is the section that keeps the game rocking in the way that it does.

But we're not talking about progression guilds, who are doing 25 man anyway. We're talking about middle-of-the-road 25-man raiders who want to be artificially special again (because being 14th in DPS is not working out too well for you).

[Deleted]

Why not have 25M drop upgraded gear.

10M is 0/2, 25M is 1/2.

In the end shit's same Ilvl, just takes 750 valor less to cap it for 25M players.

You mean 12000 valor less, considering you need to upgrade every slot to catch up.

[Deleted]

What 25man players think will happen when 25man drops better loot:
10man guilds "simply" switch to 25man and those who don't get enough new players either do fusions with other guilds or join existing 25man guilds. Casual players keep raiding 10man.

What really will happen:
Most Semi-Hardcore 10man guilds instantly disband, some players from these guilds join existing 25man guilds or new 25man projects. Hardcore Guilds try to upgrade to 25man but most will fail, those who can get enough players through recruitment or fusion disband during the first content. In the end there aren't really much people raiding at all and wow is even more dead than it is now.

If Blizzard wants to discuss 25man they should change it to 16man and make it the "thing that matters" and change 10man to 8man for the casuals.

[kojinshugi]

Why not have 25M drop upgraded gear.

10M is 0/2, 25M is 1/2.

In the end shit's same Ilvl, just takes 750 valor less to cap it for 25M players.

This. For important BiS items like weapons, this would allow for parity, whereas 25M would always have an advantage, and with halving the cost of full upgrading, it may actually be feasible to fully upgrade a BiS set before the next xpac hits.

[Deleted]

being forced to raid shitty no skill required easy 25man again ? no thanks rather quit the game

[Drayarr]

Because the majority of the bosses in the tier, and every tier prior since the existance of 10man, are easier on 10man. It's forcing people to go that route because it offers the path of least resistance. The slightly extra loot in 25man is not enough to bridge that gap.

Then they need to make 10man harder, if it is different, which it shouldn't be, purely subjective.

[Deleted]

lets see what happens to the game as a whole if the best guilds in the wrold just sddenly stopped playing, lets see how awesome and epic your gaming experience would be, here's a tip, it won't, without these guilds and these players, the encounters would not be the epic clusterfucks they are today, with such tight tuning in places designed to push players, without that, you get humdrum "anybody can do this shit" encounters that are boring and uninteresting, so yeah, blizz care about the 0.0001% of the playerbase, because it is the section that keeps the game rocking in the way that it does.

to give an analogy, it is like running a hotel, the most important ppl aren't the hotel manager, or the snazzy decor, it is the cooks, the cleaners, the security guard, the "vocal minority" that keep things running properly, and keeps the guests the "vocal majority" aka "the whiners" paying and coming back.

Your post does not make a great deal of sense. Your analogy of "guys in the back making all the magic happen for the paying guests/customers" doesn't really apply to the "top guilds" for a start; they are paying customers. Also raiding as a whole is only experienced by a minority of players, I know when you are part of the minority looking out it seems players are either raiders or players who either want to be raiders or are intrested in raiding but most people don't give a shit. Even with easy mode LFR in the game raiding is still a minority. Maybe in TBC and to a certain extent WotLK you could make an argument for raiding content propping up the whole game, but the community and game are well past those days now. Hell, it's why we have a million daily quests these days, because raiding content cannot retain subs alone anymore.

[Anjerith]

I am going to bet on 25 bosses dropping charms.

[Faroth]

Stopped doing 25 man at the start of Ulduar as we lost players to real life scheduling. Reformed for 10 man raiding with RL friends and another group of RL friends with a couple guildmates and have done that from ToC to now (waiting on some to catch up for MoP. Darn real life again).

Personally, I've never seen any reason to care if 25 man had high iLvL. It's a bonus for 25 man raids and if I'm doing 10 man, the gear I get is good enough for what I'm doing. I have no actual need for the 25 man gear except for situations where I like its color set better. All that means is I have to wait until next expansion to go back and farm gear if I really want it for transmog (and by then I might not care for it as much anyway).

Never understood why the ilvl difference mattered, it was a fair incentive. Personally, I don't see why the lockouts have to be shared either though. The concept of "players feel they have to do both weekly" shouldn't be Blizzard's problem. Anything that is "Blizzard, you're making me _____" is an immediate non-argument. Blizzard makes players do nothing, players choose what to do with their time.

That said, I agree with others here. The ilvl being higher or the upgraded drops doesn't sound like what's being hinted at. Curious to see what they announce.

[Stommped]

Then they need to make 10man harder, if it is different, which it shouldn't be, purely subjective.

I think that is actually one of the possibilities in the "controversial" area that GC mentioned. Something like an 8% hp and dmg buff to all 10man bosses. That would definitely be controversial and it would be interesting to see how the community responds.