Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Deleted]

So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

Goddamn mongoloids.

Infracted~

[HamSandwichFace]

So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

Goddamn mongoloids.

Normal modes are serious business.

Hint: 25 man HC is still harder than 10 man overall.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

Goddamn mongoloids.

There are people who enjoy 25 man raiding and those who enjoy 10 man raiding. There are also people who enjoy raiding in general, regardless of whether it is 10 or 25 man. 25 mans run into logistical problems because they need to maintain a larger roster of people, many of whom are indifferent as to whether they are raiding 10s or 25s and will jump ship to the easier to organize difficulty if the 25 man guild they're in isn't progressing as quickly due to roster issues. 25 man raiding is not in some bubble that is separate from 10 man. That should be abundantly obvious enough given the decline in 25 man guilds with the introduction of the new lockout system in Cata. Really, I'm not sure how this was that difficult to figure out.

[Divineknight13]

it was hard when wow was much bigger to get 40 people together for a raid sometimes

now its harder to get just 25 people to show up for a raid since most of the player base is quitting

they should just make 15 man content

[Hothgor]

They don't need to do anything majorly controversial...just make it so you can earn valor beyond the 1000 cap if you complete content that week in a 25 man guild run. Set the 25 man valor cap at 1500 and you will encourage people to raid 25 man over 10 man without dramatically stirring up the pot.

[Penguintamer]

If it's going to be controversial then it's going to piss some people off. Considering their plan is to make 25 man raiders happier, I can imagine it's not going to be them that are pissed.

I can't wait.

[Sariengrey]

funny how folks say "25 man is harder, i raid both ,i know, sorry its the thruth".well guess what? i raid both as well and some of the 10 man encounters are harder than the 25 man version "sorry, its the truth" .see in 10 man there is little to no room for error, and everyone is much more accountable.in the 25 mans you can carry a couple folks ,sometimes more.i have killed versions of an encounter heroic style in 25 mans, when 4 or 5 folks have died or "messed up" , that same 10 man encounter pretty much becomes undefeatable when even just 1 player on your raid team dies or "messes up"

so the "25 is harder than 10's "just doesnt cut it anymore.and that come from personal experience.so you all can save that.

[Cybran]

Again no one factors in how much longer it takes for 25 people to get back after a wipe, repair and come back from a bio break. The downtime in 25s is much longer. People get fed up with waiting for other people and guilds break.

I just shake my head at the people claiming "It's all fine now. People who like 25s raid 25s". That is just not true.

[Deleted]

Loads of the people I raid with enjoy pet battles.

Just give 25 mans a chance to drop epic pets with each boss kill.

I don't think this is something interessting to add. While people may like pet battles adding pets isn't going to make any big diffrence.

[Zephre]

Higher item level from 25 mans is not going to happen so stop kidding yourselves.

Ghostcrawler said
" Because that would cause progression-oriented 10 player raids to feel like they had to switch to 25s to benefit from the ilevel. "

By making 25 player drop higher item level items it'll force people into 25. If anything they'll probably do something like remove the lockouts and allow people who run it on 25 to also run it on 10 thus allowing 25 player guilds multiple chances per week to get geared faster or something along those lines / similar ect.

Higher item level items from 25 man is probably very unlikely though either way i'm interested to see what they mean by controversial.

[Isotope]

A lot of people have this false sense of what will be the return of 25mans.

25 man raids failed when they shared the same loot as 10man. The effort and time of putting together a 25man raid was pointless when almost no effort could be made to do a 10man that would be more successful. They have already buffed gear drops in 25 mans and it didn't work. Giving them a higher ilvl when 10s can just upgrade it for 1500 valor won't work.

The only way to bring back 25man raids is to break 10s and 25s into separate lock outs and give them different loot totally. None of the changes suggested in here will even make me think about going back to 25man raids. It isn't worth carrying a dead weight healer and 4 dead weight dps.

[Arcbound]

I realize this might not seem controversial to people, but how about allowing current content to be cross realm for 25 mans only (but not for 10 mans) and let the community come together and form 25 mans for those who want to do it.

[Banzhe]

controversial.... that's the key word. I am guessing its higher ilvl items again. Which would suck.

Higher ilvl means nothing if the stat weighting on them is the same as the lower ilvl (or near enough the same), higher ilvl would also mean that the content linked to those items were made justifiable harder.., but no matter how you look at it, I'd agree, it would indeed suck, stink, blow to high heaven!

Being a 25man raider, I was hoping for the simple things again.., separate achievements again, different meta mounts although the same model, titles differing again (the standards) and that would be it.., there are other things I could wish for, but simply to avoid the solid stream of whiny posts about one comp being favoured I hope they don't go overboard, the community is in general far to bitchy and loot / vanity items oriented.
No shared lockout for 25s could be an idea, but I honestly don't see the need for it as it's the same as giving 25s higher ilvl (stupid system that ilvl), progress oriented 10s would probably also feel required to form 25s just for the added items then.
Could also be it's something as simple as re-introducing the 'Have Group Will Travel' summon for 25s.., a very small thing that would make no difference.

In truth they just need to separate the achievements again as 10 vs 25 isn't the same (Not starting a war here, just let it go), unless they somehow create dynamical room scaling they will never be the same.
Don't even think it would be possible to make dynamical scaling.., I mean, would it mean that 10s have a fighting area the size of 15 * 15 yards?- or does 25 get a room the size of Ogrimmar?

I realize this might not seem controversial to people, but how about allowing current content to be cross realm for 25 mans only (but not for 10 mans) and let the community come together and form 25 mans for those who want to do it.

Chances are that it would ruin the progress tracking sites (or maybe it wouldn't count at all on them), could also be the death of normal 25 man guilds, and those doing 25 would be a mix of players floating about on different realms, thereby not showing anywhere except on blizzards statistics, and that in tern then breaks the competition for a lot of players.

[Ferocity]

I'd say leave it as is. 25-men (together with respective guilds) were destroyed by Cataclysm's "flexible" lockouts. This shouldn't be changed in first place. But as it was done, don't bring more harm. Let things be as they are. Re-accenting on 25-men can destroy 10-men guilds. The best Blizzard can do is to fire whoever was responsible for "flexible lockouts" stuff in first place and who was pro this system. I guess it was GC?

[Buxton McGraff]

I hope it'll go back to the old way. Or at least same gear, just slightly higher ilvl (because be real, getting 25 people together to cooperate is harder than 10) and on separate lockouts. That way people will still do both each week to get as much gear as possible, especially those who refuse to do LFR and daillys.

[nnelson54]

yup just piss off the most loyal/dedicated customers best way to have a good business rep and show u care and you're not just in it for the $$$$$. /sarcasm

I don't know how you think that "hardcore raiders" translates into "most loyal/dedicated customers". It's quite the opposite. The more serious you are about a game like WoW the more likely you are to ragequit over changes you don't like or storm the forums complaining about it. The casual players are the ones that are the easiest to please and the most long term, which is why the game has been taking a more casual-friendly trend over the last couple years.

[Banzhe]

I don't know how you think that "hardcore raiders" translates into "most loyal/dedicated customers". It's quite the opposite. The more serious you are about a game like WoW the more likely you are to ragequit over changes you don't like or storm the forums complaining about it. The casual players are the ones that are the easiest to please and the most long term, which is why the game has been taking a more casual-friendly trend over the last couple years.

Please visit the forums every now and again, if you had followed the official forums just a tad over.., say, the past month, all the complaints are from casual players > mediocre raiders (That's right, every single one apart from maybe 1-2)

The last time raiders in general complained about something on a "large" scale, was in Cataclysm because they were left with absolutely nothing to do for almost 4-5 months unless they wanted to roll alt upon alt.
I'm curious as to where you get that statement from?- the more serious you are about a game like wow (speaking in raid relations) the more likely you are to put in extra time to overcome whatever hurdle it is that seems off to you, you don't quit unless you're a whiny little asshat claiming to be something your clearly not.., again, see the public forums for reference.

[Deleted]

I am hoping the change will make 25m far more attractive for players than it is atm. Extra loot, big fucking woop de doop. Yeeee, no. Those people that are playing 10m do it because they enjoy it right? Different titles and mount skins would be more than enough for a lot of people. I'd love to see separate titles personally.

I honestly thought 25m dropping upgraded loot would be the simple solution as 10m 'could' get there eventually. I expect we will see 10m guilds moan about something, they always have. In the end they got their way after all and look how that turned out. Not that I have anything against 10m on the whole, I just think they should have stuck to the WotLK model.

---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 09:51 AM ----------

I don't know how you think that "hardcore raiders" translates into "most loyal/dedicated customers". It's quite the opposite. The more serious you are about a game like WoW the more likely you are to ragequit over changes you don't like or storm the forums complaining about it. The casual players are the ones that are the easiest to please and the most long term, which is why the game has been taking a more casual-friendly trend over the last couple years.

The reason things have favored casuals over the last couple of years is due to the fact they whine more on the forums. There is rarely a constructive post criticising Blizzard with their direction. It's just I want, I want. Even though the 'hardcore' are the minority over all, without them the game wouldn't be able to stand on two feet. If every single hardcore player whined on the forums things would be far different to what it is now, but we don't. You may get a couple of wannabe elitists but most of the time they have no idea what they are talking about.

I don't have anything against casuals as I have spent a fair amount of my time as a casual over the past few years. However I never had that entitlement burn that people go on about. Time + Effort = Reward in my eyes. If you can't put the time in, expect a mediocre reward or the same reward in a far more extended period. The latter is what Blizzard seem to be aiming for in regards to the gear progression philosophy of 5.2.

[Spacepunch]

If anything 10 man should get higher ilvl gear since 10 man is more difficult than 25 man plain and simple. Silly 25 man raiders wanting higher ilvl and more loot. I think the shit is fine where its stands personally, there should be no difference in the loot received by a 10 or 25, but diff titles and achieve mounts are just fine.

[Deleted]

The surprise can not possibly be increasing 25 man ilvl, not just because Blizz said they wouldn't but because it would be a shit ton of unecessary work to do it. If you increase ilvl of all 25 man gear, the biproduct is that the 25 man content becomes easier and Blizzard would have to fix it so that it is balanced again.

If 25 mans are abolished as 40 mans were before it, it would likely need to be done between expansions. The top guilds coped with losing 15 people from their rosters, they can cope with losing another 15 or 10 if they go to 15 ppl raids.