Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Deleted]

25 is already really incentivizing from my point of view - I raided both formats this tier.
10-man is easier to manage but also comes with higher personal responsibilty on encounters.
10-man however has and always had worst RNG problems on loot. There's nothing worse than disenchanting heroic loot on our first kill because no-one can use it, while some players are waiting 3 months to replace that one fucking blue piece of gear which refuses to drop.

So:
-25man gets more loot per person
-25man has much less chance to drop useless loot - there will always be someone who can use a drop - even for offspec

I'd gladly raid 25's, I like them. But my PC doesn't share this love and it's kinda hard to find 25 competent people willing to raid at late night schedule.

Making 25's dropping upgraded loot will make them mandatory again, at least at current VP upgrade price which is 3 weeks for just two 2/2 upgraded items.

[Tziva]

So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

While I partially agree, this is also a little disingenuous. It isn't as simple as "raid the size you like" because 25mans require someone who wants to lead a 25man and the logistical headaches of the size are most relevant to raid leaders. It's not unreasonable to believe that there are people who want to raid 25man but can't find a raid because not enough raid leaders are willing to step up to the plate because there is no real reward for the extra headache of wrangling 15 bonus people. There are people in my raid who prefer 25 and would love to raid that size but are in the 10 because the few of us who led 25mans in the past have washed our hands of it.

[Deleted]

So basically, everyone will run 25s instead of 10s?

No I wrote some options, not everyone should be implented.

[Dubalicious]

10-man however has and always had worst RNG problems on loot.

I'm still looking forward to the day when somebody ACTUALLY does a great analysis on 10 vs. 25 loot/gearing. Our alt 10 man almost always ends up getting gear faster than our "mains" that run 25's, but it's hard to keep perspective sometimes since the 10 man lags behind a bit. I just want to see a data driven analysis of 10 man guilds versus 25 man guilds and see what the gap ACTUALLY is (because I personally don't believe that 10 mans fall behind on gear compared to 25s with 'typical' luck/RNG)

[Deleted]

I'm still looking forward to the day when somebody ACTUALLY does a great analysis on 10 vs. 25 loot/gearing. Our alt 10 man almost always ends up getting gear faster than our "mains" that run 25's, but it's hard to keep perspective sometimes since the 10 man lags behind a bit. I just want to see a data driven analysis of 10 man guilds versus 25 man guilds and see what the gap ACTUALLY is (because I personally don't believe that 10 mans fall behind on gear compared to 25s with 'typical' luck/RNG)

1 more loot in 25 is enough "analysis" to say that 25 man gearing is faster.

[Verain]

So basically:

You can reward 25s with higher item level. This makes them the "real" raids, that make "real" gear. The low level raids become seen differently by different people, but no one gives a shit about them all by themselves. This was marvelously demonstrated throughout all four tiers of Lich King, where you had to raid a 10s and a 25s each week, often because something good was in the 10s (remember those Ulduar 10 trinkets?), and often just to make better gear / tier gear- but your progression was measured by your 25s. If you didn't do 25s, you weren't a real guild.

The downsides to reverting to this are obvious- the initial setup "forced" everyone into 10s. The few immune to this were the ones with fantastic progression in the first place- I doubt very much the game is full of 25 reg mode guilds, for instance, as most of the good players want to be in a heroic guild- 25 or 10.

They might be hoping they can play with it- "here, your gear starts 1/2"- but that's ultimately the same thing. There isn't enough valor to upgrade all your pieces anyway- and if a tier goes long enough that there IS enough valor, you won't give a hoot about it anyway, because you'll be farming all the hard modes (or your guild will be on break).

They could do something like "10 gear starts 0/2, 25 gear starts 0/3". That might split the difference enough- if you have a 25 mode weapon or trinket, that would absolutely be worth upgrading 3 times, but most gear wouldn't, and it would overall still be a wash.


Now, what if it's not gear? I don't really know what else it could be. Ultimately, they seem determined to make 25s more prestigious than 10s in a way that will BOTHER you if you only run 10s. That's because everyone already KNOWS that 25s are harder, more prestigious, the "real raids", but that 10s are close enough because they deliver the exact same rewards- if Blizzard thought they were different, they would reward them different, and they absolutely do not. Hence, we all run 10s, even if we'd prefer 25s.


I don't know what carrot they can provide that wouldn't really be as stick. All this chatter does is make me nervous that they are going to shit all in my mouth again.

[Dubalicious]

1 more loot in 25 is enough "analysis" to say that 25 man gearing is faster.

Sure, if you like to ignore data and good analysis =)

Again, I don't know the answer - I *want* to know the answer and see the data. You telling me what the data is going to say means absolutely nothing to me, in fact, it's the entire basis for my original statement.

[fraks]

25s will be cross-faction.

Now THAT would be interesting.

My 2c; The changes will NOT be loot related, but will follow Blizzards Modus Operandi for this expansion. It will offer us something additional to go after (i.e. work for) IF we decide it's worth it and are willing to put forth that effort. They will be reluctant to do anything that will be construed as making 25s "mandatory" (though it will be construed that way, regardless) so I see no increased loot drops or iLvl.

My guesses are along the lines of what others have stated; additional vanity items, titles/mounts, etc.

The idea of a single raid size is also intriguing, and perhaps possible. There have been a few things this expansion that seem to be Blizzard "resetting" our expectations. I could see them making a big change and using diplomatic tones to explain it away, all while really getting after changing our perceptions of the game. These things have happened to a degree in MoP, imho.

[Volbian]

I hope its the removal of both 10s and 25s and make them a one size raid.

That way both current sizes will get hurt by the change. 25s will lose 10 players and 10s will need to gain 5 people, in their roster.
Eye for an eye, sort of speak. World bosses can be the new 25+ raid, especially now with the faction tap.
This makes alot more sense for them to do.

Look at all the the other MMOs out there. There is NO 2 different size raids. Its only one size. GW2 has World events which would be similar to World Bosses in WOW.
Being that Blizzard "borrows" things from other games(especially GW2). This is probably more likely to happen.

[Dubalicious]

Look at all the the other MMOs out there. There is NO 2 different size raids. Its only one size.

Not too up-to-date on my non-WoW stuff, but I thought Star Wars still had 8/16 player raids and GW2 didn't really have an equivalent to WoW raids?

I really don't think one raid size is the answer, but it certainly is a possible solution. I see it VERY unlikely to come mid-expac, however.

[Deleted]

They could triple the chance of getting a rare mount on 25s and add one more piece of loot.
I honestly don't understand why 25s need better rewards, so better loot just makes no sense.

[Hyve]

Blizzard needs to do something radical and different to fix this issue and the only thing I could see to resolve all of these issues is to isolate all raids into a 15 Man System.

This would mean both 10 & 25 Man have to go through a period of struggling due to roster issues, and would cause a lot of anger within the community, but the amount of development time, changes and alternations made with 10 & 25 over the past few years has been a total joke and disaster.

Having one system (15 Man) and three setting: Looking for Raid (Easy), Normal & Hard would be a lot simpler for Blizzard and everyone else. All previous content could be easily made into 15 Man content by making that the maximum number of people you could take in, because the content is so trivial that it doesn't matter if you go to do Dragon Soul 25 Heroic with 15 people now.

If they keep pushing this off, it is going to become a bigger and more dangerous bomb that is going to blow up in their face. Radical change is sometimes the only option.

---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 06:26 PM ----------

I see it VERY unlikely to come mid-expac

They wouldn't dare. The total amount this would fuck everything up would be impossible to count, and the sheer rage on every community site would crush the very infrastructure of the World Wide Web.

[Tziva]

Sure, if you like to ignore data and good analysis =)

Again, I don't know the answer - I *want* to know the answer and see the data. You telling me what the data is going to say means absolutely nothing to me, in fact, it's the entire basis for my original statement.

I think you misunderstood him. He's not ignoring data, he's basing it off the only non-RNG criteria you can judge this by: the quantity of loot that drops.

There is a higher ratio of loot : player in 25 man. Objectively. 10man drops 1 piece of loot for every five people, 25man drops 1 piece of loot for every ~four. The role ratio isn't the same, so particular roles might favour one size over the other, but as a general rule a 25man raid will gear up faster, full stop. An individual 25man might get unlucky with drops, or a particular 10man lucky, but if you look at the overall pool where the randomness should even out across all the raids, the 25mans will be ahead because they are getting more loot with every kill.

That's not factoring in usefulness of the actual drops, but you can't statistically consider them. By its definition, you can't determine if randomness favours a particular size because it's just that, random.

Any further analysis would be extraneous.

[-KeenaM-]

Seems blizzard listened to the commuity for once.

lol no. haha

[Arhippa]

There is a higher ratio of loot:player in 25 man. Objectively. 10man drops 1 piece of loot for every five people, 25man drops 1 piece of loot for every ~four. The role ratio isn't the same, so particular roles might favour one size over the other, but as a general rule a 25man raid will gear up faster, full stop.

And you're forgetting that there's also more people in need of loot in a 25man guild. You're not just gearing up the 10 and 25 players killing a particular boss, you're also gearing up the ones sitting outside for that boss. Based on my own experiences, the more serious 10man guilds usually have 1-3 extra players (3 being a bit more rare), whereas 25mans have around 5 to 10 players (again, towards 10 being a bit rarer).

This is why I agree with Dubalicious, I'd really like to see some proper analysis of this matter. It's all just assumptions. I don't really care which way the result goes, I'd just like to see some sort of proof about it going into one raid size's favor. Or who knows, maybe there really isn't a significant enough difference to say that there would be a disadvantage for one size.

[Zoldor]

Or maybe it is more controversial than you guys are thinking. Maybe its the elimination of 25 man all together. Blizz finally got tired looked where the money is at and decided to cut the fat. There won't be a gear change, because it would require another recolor of every piece of gear for Regular and heroic 10 and 25 again. More wasted time. If anything its going to be Cross-Faction 25, one more piece of loot, or something cosmetic. I don't foresee the higher gear level again. I would give anything for one raid size. Make life so much simpler for everyone...consumer, blizzard etc. We would all benefit, just too many snowflakes don't want to get melted from "real" raiding, whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean. (btw that statement is meant to go both ways, not a jab at 25).

Oh and lol at all the folks that said anything about how "easy" it would be for 10 mans to go to 25. lol, enjoy your spot on your 25 man raid where you show up with a flask and think you've really done something for raid. While your raid leader pillages through lists of fools to fill spots. I hope you at least go to the summoning stone early.

[Daedius]

"Controversial"...

'Sorry guys, 25m not popular anymore... it's gone - but we're also removing 10m and making it an all new 15m!'

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

And you're forgetting that there's also more people in need of loot in a 25man guild. You're not just gearing up the 10 and 25 players killing a particular boss, you're also gearing up the ones sitting outside for that boss. Based on my own experiences, the more serious 10man guilds usually have 1-3 extra players (3 being a bit more rare), whereas 25mans have around 5 to 10 players (again, towards 10 being a bit rarer).

This is why I agree with Dubalicious, I'd really like to see some proper analysis of this matter. It's all just assumptions. I don't really care which way the result goes, I'd just like to see some sort of proof about it going into one raid size's favor. Or who knows, maybe there really isn't a significant enough difference to say that there would be a disadvantage for one size.

There's also the possibility of tank gear drops, where less of the raid (% wise) can use tank gear in 25 mans than 10 mans. The number of tanks required for an encounter is the same except for a few encounters.

---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 07:11 PM ----------

10-man is easier to manage but also comes with higher personal responsibilty on encounters.
10-man however has and always had worst RNG problems on loot. There's nothing worse than disenchanting heroic loot on our first kill because no-one can use it, while some players are waiting 3 months to replace that one fucking blue piece of gear which refuses to drop.
.

However, when you do actually get that upgrade in a 10 man, that one piece of loot does more for your raid than a piece of loot in 25 man. In other words, any individual picking up gear in a 25 man is going to matter less when it comes to killing the next progression boss than when that same person picks up gear in a 10 man. That should be obvious enough, because 25 mans require more aggregate DPS/healing from your raid.

On a similar note, I don't see how 'higher personal responsibility' is necessarily a turn off. Just because each particular individual may have to shoulder more of a burden in killing a boss doesn't mean that the encounter is harder in that aspect or that people would be less incentivized to do it. Personally, I would welcome shouldering more responsibility. As a great player, making more of a difference in the outcome of a pull (where I represent 10% of the raid's effort, rather than 4%) means I am more likely to kill a boss in 10 man than I am in 25 man.

[Acidbaron]

Ah the stereotypes return, 25 is easier because of this and that 10 man is easier of this and that.
Sorry to dent your ego self proclaimed pro gamers, it's all encounter based. Therefor we look at the factors outside of encounters and that makes 25 man harder to organize and recruit for to maintain the same level of raiding.


It will be interesting to see what they'll do, the truth is from the start they have said they would monitor how it all evolves.
My analyse on ideas proposed so far by posters;


Cross faction, not sure how much that is possible with NPC's jumping in raid encounters at one point (lore wise that is) cross faction would not do much beyond the dungeon finder, as it would require cross faction guilds to organize it. So i don't see it happening, if they do such a thing it would be after a big change in the story and so if this was ever to take place expect it to be an entire expansion to be build around it.

More loot/gold, that incentive isn't working now. It can't see that being so controversial either, idem for more points. This would look like the easiest thing they can toy around with.

Back to better loot, could be on the board but would again bring back the old issues for 10 man raids, so just shifting the problem and therefor not a solution and can't see it on the board, so unlikely.

I think it's something else, what? No idea.

[Tinykong]

No I wrote some options, not everyone should be implented.

Any of those things will make people run 25s instead of 10, except maybe the achievements (provided they don't reward mounts or player power items.)