Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[katta]

I love how your implying that 10 man's don't have the same issues. Last thing I checked 10-man raiders also have had holidays, and to be fair we have less backups for our roster than any "healthy" 25-man guild should have. So what you pretty much said is that every 10-man raider out there was sitting at his desk rather than going to family or other things for the holiday. Nice assumptions, I share fairly little faith and belief in your story of being a so-called GM for 7 years.

I love how you imply that 25 mans should have a healthy amount of backups and a 10 man shouldnt have the same amount of healthy backups.

You also pretty much said that 25 mans should have enough backups to still raid and I guess thats also saying that they would rather not only sit at their deck rather than do holiday things that they also should want to sit and watch other people raid and hope they get the call someday.

You also have to remember that most 10 mans are doing 10 mans because they like raiding with their friends only. I guess it was bad for him to expect that friends could actually get together and raid. So your comments are the insulting ones not his.

[Enosh]

I love how you imply that 25 mans should have a healthy amount of backups and a 10 man shouldnt have the same amount of healthy backups.

it's more likely to get a raid together in a 25 man guild during the holidays since simply more people might show up
lets say 50% of your raiders are gone because of family obligations etc, that leaves you with 12.5 people in a 25 man raiding guild and 5 in a 10 man one (not counting extra people beyond 25 and 10 even)

guess which one of those has enough people to get a raid together (hint 25 mans guild aren't banned from selecting "10 man normal")

Knowing that it would be very unlikely that would ever happen, my next desire would be to split 10 and 25 raids up again like in TBC. Kara to SSC etc. They could be the same ilvl and the same "difficulty" but be different story/lore for each zone.

yes I am sure blizzard would love nothing more than to have to make 2 raids each tier for no god damn reason at all

[Kazi]

I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.

This type of mentality is what has killed this game for me.

[Tiberria]

Based on the number of guilds that have killed at least one boss, here is the trending for 10 man vs 25 man since the shared lockouts were introduced

25 man US guilds:
(T10 - 26,657)
T11 - 1953
T12 - 1973
T13 - 1944
T14 - 1056

10 man US guilds:
(T10 - 37,999)
T11 - 24,604
T12 - 21,604
T13 - 21,889
T14 - 13,207

The T10 numbers are not really useful, because there wasn't really much concept of a "10 man guild" back in Wrath and most guilds would clear both raid sizes at least some of the time. This data shows absolutely 0 evidence that there is any trend of 25 man continuing to lose ground to 10 man in the last 2 expansions since the initial shared lockout change. 25 man numbers were consistent through Cata, and if anything 10 man participation dropped off more. Both difficulties have had a pretty alarming drop in participation from T13 to T14. However, it seems like the amount of people doing 25 man relative to the amount of people doing 10 man is about the same now as it was at the start of Cata. The problem is more the overall amount of people raiding is way down in MoP, and that creates huge "economy of scale" problems for 25 man groups with how low population several servers now are.

[Talen]

No, they actualy haven't ruled out better loot based on the latest blue post. At least they were definitely considering having 25 man droping 1/2 upgraded loot but they didn't go through with it since system was introduced half way through the tier. But come 5.2 that problem is gone so it is a possibility.

But they have ruled out a higher iLevel and have done recently and not so recently.

There are several issues with a simple pre-upgraded drop.

First is that it is a massive extra reward, even at the 1/2 level. 750 VP. Almost a full weeks work for even just 1 upgrade level.
Second is that there may or may not be enough time to upgrade every piece of loot you have while a tier is current. If you don't - and Blizzard accept that as a real possibility - then the simple upgrade is a de facto higher ilevel, something they have effectively ruled out.

They have considered a higher iLevel and dropped it because of its effect on 10s.
They have considered pre-upgraded gear and dropped it because the upgrade mechanic wasn't in place. Is the controversial nature of their idea the fact that they are simply going to use wordplay to get around their stance on not providing higher ilevel gear? That pointing out that 10s, in theory, could catch up is enough of a truth so they can't be caught in a half truth?

Not impossible.

Thing is, they haven't shown any interest at all in killing 10s. This would likely do it because pre-upgraded gear is better gear. And better gear is what players go for. So if they do bring in this idea, they've effectively reverted to the LK model...with the proviso that if you play long enough and are willing to slow down your progress, you'll eventually catch up.

Which is an overly complex way of doing things.

EJL

[kamuimac]

This type of mentality is what has killed this game for me.

and yet the game has 10 mln subs and is very healthy

[Subbversion]

The following post is my interpretation/wish, as a 25m HC raider:

I am hoping that it is simply pre-upgraded (either 1/2 or 2/2) items. Seems to be the most logical, as it would simply be a head start for 25mans, not an entire leg-up over 10s. 10man would still be able to get to the gear level of 25, and in the end everyone would be on an equal playing field.

This, endthread. As a hardmode raider of 25's this is what I see coming.

[Gurbz]

This, endthread. As a hardmode raider of 25's this is what I see coming.

Try reading some of the other posts. The one 2 posts above yours pretty accurately explains why you are wrong. I'll even quote the relevant part to make it easy.

First is that it is a massive extra reward, even at the 1/2 level. 750 VP. Almost a full weeks work for even just 1 upgrade level.
Second is that there may or may not be enough time to upgrade every piece of loot you have while a tier is current. If you don't - and Blizzard accept that as a real possibility - then the simple upgrade is a de facto higher ilevel, something they have effectively ruled out.

Whatever solution they are thinking of trying, it is not going to have anything to do with gear. People might as well get that idea out of their heads. It won't happen. Blizzard has said multiple times, even within the last few days, that it won't happen. The effect on 10-mans would be too great, essentially sending us back to the days of WotLK raiding.

[Tiberria]

The suggestion that letting 25 mans drop 1/2 upgraded loot would put things back to the WoTLK days is completely ridiculous. There is a huge difference between 25 man dropping loot that is 13 item levels higher and is a completely different loot table (and generally better trinkets and better itemization in most cases) and dropping items that are 4 ilevels higher and that 10 man raiders would be able to upgrade to that level anyway.

The reality is, 25 mans already effectively have better loot and faster gearing as is, because of the impact of 25 man drop chances versus 10 man drop chances. In 25 man, more of the gear are main spec upgrades, because you have a much better chance of having people in the raid that can use an item that drops. In 10 man, a lot more loot gets rotted and gets offspecced. Cata research showed that 25 man raiders gear about 50% faster than 10 man raiders.

Therefore, there already is a huge loot advantage in 25 man that is much higher than the 4 temporary ilevels the 1/2 upgraded loot suggestion would give. If the current gearing isn't "sending us back to the days of WoTLK raiding", giving 25 mans 1/2 upgraded loot won't either. Will it make 25 mans slightly more attractive, and make more people want to seek out to run them and join them? Probably, to an extent. But the reality that 10 man raiders have to realize is, Blizzard wants to make more people want to 25 man raids over 10 man raids, so any move that is made is going to have some impact on 10 mans and be perceived as unfair, although it hopefully won't have a catastrophic impact.

[Talen]

Whatever solution they are thinking of trying, it is not going to have anything to do with gear.

I would personally doubt it myself, given what they have stated, but at the same time I wouldn't say it is impossible. As you say, Blizzard don't seem to want to kill 10s so that really limits the scope for incentivisation via extra rewards. QoL improvements are more likely but again...that won't bring players into the 25 man format. It might stop them breaking up to a degree.

But then...there is that "controversial" comment

The suggestion that letting 25 mans drop 1/2 upgraded loot would put things back to the WoTLK days is completely ridiculous. There is a huge difference between 25 man dropping loot that is 13 item levels higher and is a completely different loot table (and generally better trinkets and better itemization in most cases) and dropping items that are 4 ilevels higher and that 10 man raiders would be able to upgrade to that level anyway.

Players go after the gear. A lot of players - especially the progression players Blizzard mentioned - will go after even 4 iLevels. That does after all represent nearly a week of work. And if there isn't enough time in a tier to get the VP needed to implement an upgrade for every piece, that turns into a de facto permanent increase.

EJL

[Coldpro]

Scrap 25 & 10 Man and make 15 Man Raids.

I can only dream ...

15 mans have been done before, UBRS was a 15 man raid at one point (Then nerfed to 10, then to 5 player group) and it worked out perfectly fine. 10 mans will need to recruit a few more players, 25 mans will need to downsize a bit. Also ends the 10 v 25 debate.

[Eranthe]

The problems with raid difficulties/size began when they started making instances with multiple versions.

TBC model: 10 man raiding to gear up for "real raiding" in 25s, karazhan was an easy instance that could be pugged, or cleared by your guild in a couple hours. cost effective source of sweet sweet purples to get yourself started in end game. then the challenging 25 man raids started and ramped up in difficulty, requiring you to gear up in each previous instance (except in extreme circumstances) and follow an elaborate quest chain to gain access to each new instance. Badge (precursor to valor/justice) gear gets updated periodically to supplement your raid gear or help you make an offset. The only cap on badges is the maximum amount you can get per week from killing bosses (which i happen to think is much more of an elegant design than an ugly 1000/1000 that we have now. this way i won't feel pressured to cap every week, just let me kill all the bosses i can, and give me points/badges clearing them, capping at when i kill all the available bosses.)

When you see someone in full tier 6 with warglaives, you know they are really good, because it takes time and dedication to get there and character progression feels great. I raided for all of TBC and never killed anything past vashj/kael but i was proud of my guild for doing it, and it was where we belonged as a collective group. we weren't good enough for BT/sunwell. Having tons of requirements to get into the raids may be annoying for some, but more than that, it makes you feel awesome when you finally get it all done. Having Hand of A'dal is one of my proudest achievements in wow. item level differences between the first and last instances of the expansion were reasonable to the point that you would keep a few pieces throughout most (if not all, hi dragonspine trophy) of the expansion, thus necessitating a need to keep running those old instances.
(http://www.ravencrestwatch.com/OMGLE...attunement.jpg)

item level of karazhan starting items:115
item level of kil'jaeden (sunwell plateau) items: 164
difference in item level: 49

Wrath model: You can choose to do 10s and/or 25s, but you can only get legendaries and rare mounts in 25s. 10 mans are for alts (and achieves!) and for supplementing your main raid gear with some easy to get pieces. 10 mans were for fun, not for ultra serious cutting edge raiding. This isn't to say they were always easy, although generally everything was harder on 25 man, with a few exceptions. (hi sarth 3d) Everyone knew that real raiding was 25 man heroic. It was harder difficulty-wise, harder to organize, and the rewards were better. No more attunements, you just walk into the zone. Every instance now has a 10 man and a 25 man mode, making for balance problems and the need to clear our both (or all 4) versions to get the most gear you can. After hitting 80, there's no need to go back to naxx, because you can run heroics to get emblems (yet another incarnation of justice points) to buy gear that is better than naxx gear, leaving naxx utterly obsolete. you will use exactly zero items from naxx 25 on lich king heroic 25 because they are so outdated.

naxx 25 item level: 213-226
lich king 25 heroic item level: 284
difference: 71

Cataclysm model: 10/25 share lockouts so you can only choose to do one or the other. Not both. Both difficulties are now being considering real raiding, (whether or not the difficulty is equal) 25 mans are granted extra loot-per-person as a reward for taking the trouble to do it with more people. This is when people started taking it personally when you told them that 10 mans aren't real raids. The legendaries/exclusive mounts/titles from doing 25 mans are now gone, blizzard's ultimate goal is that you can do whatever size raid you want and have a similar experience, difficulty wise, and reward wise. This was the beginning of the neutering of 25 man raiding. Generally 10 mans are still easier throughout the expansion, but they are much closer in difficulty than before. Gear from tier 11 is long since outdated in dragon soul.

tier 11 item level: 359
deathwing drops: 416
difference: 57 item levels

MoP model: 10/25 are very similar in difficulty these days, generally. the model didn't change drastically since cataclysm. the idea is that whatever raid size you happen to enjoy, your experience will be similar (hopefully). 25 mans have become much less popular, due to the problems with organizing 25 people. If the rewards are the same, what's the point of bashing your head against a recruiting wall to fill a 25 when you can just go to 10 mans?


These are my observations, and if i had it my way, we never would have deviated from the TBC model. I had the most fun in wow during that time, and i miss it.

I have no idea what changes they could make to bring players back to 25 mans, since they're dead-set on 10/25 equality.

[Gurbz]

The suggestion that letting 25 mans drop 1/2 upgraded loot would put things back to the WoTLK days is completely ridiculous. There is a huge difference between 25 man dropping loot that is 13 item levels higher and is a completely different loot table (and generally better trinkets and better itemization in most cases) and dropping items that are 4 ilevels higher and that 10 man raiders would be able to upgrade to that level anyway.

The reality is, 25 mans already effectively have better loot and faster gearing as is, because of the impact of 25 man drop chances versus 10 man drop chances. In 25 man, more of the gear are main spec upgrades, because you have a much better chance of having people in the raid that can use an item that drops. In 10 man, a lot more loot gets rotted and gets offspecced. Cata research showed that 25 man raiders gear about 50% faster than 10 man raiders.

Therefore, there already is a huge loot advantage in 25 man that is much higher than the 4 temporary ilevels the 1/2 upgraded loot suggestion would give. If the current gearing isn't "sending us back to the days of WoTLK raiding", giving 25 mans 1/2 upgraded loot won't either. Will it make 25 mans slightly more attractive, and make more people want to seek out to run them and join them? Probably, to an extent. But the reality that 10 man raiders have to realize is, Blizzard wants to make more people want to 25 man raids over 10 man raids, so any move that is made is going to have some impact on 10 mans and be perceived as unfair, although it hopefully won't have a catastrophic impact.

ANY power advantage will cause a large portion of the raiding population to swing back to 25s. Those 4 iLvls, which count as a not insignificant 750 valor, will be perceived as required to progression minded players, just as much as the dailies and valor gear were/are even though you could get better gear through the raids themselves. If it provides even the slightest character power increase, people WILL chase it, even if it involves doing something they hate. It has been demonstrated countless times since WoW launched, and really since MMOs existed.

I like 25s. I prefer them actually. But if we are going to have 2 formats, I don't want my 25-man raid filled with people who would rather be doing 10-man yet feel forced into 25s for the upgraded gear. 10vs25 will never be an equal choice, but it needs to be a compelling choice without the advantages of one format completely overshadowing another. If they can't figure out a way to do that, then they need to pick one singular raid size and stick with it.

[dodonpachi]

Based on the number of guilds that have killed at least one boss, here is the trending for 10 man vs 25 man since the shared lockouts were introduced

25 man US guilds:
(T10 - 26,657)
T11 - 1953
T12 - 1973
T13 - 1944
T14 - 1056

10 man US guilds:
(T10 - 37,999)
T11 - 24,604
T12 - 21,604
T13 - 21,889
T14 - 13,207

Wow nice work with the numbers. The drops in raiding from T13 to T14 is pretty crazy. I wonder what it means in terms of how people are playing.

For 25 man raids I cannot see any changes that would shift more of the population to 25 man raiding other than better loot, significantly more loot or 25 man exclusive content.

[Gurbz]

The drops in raiding from T13 to T14 is pretty crazy. I wonder what it means in terms of how people are playing.

You have to take into account that numbers for prior tiers are accounting for the time since their release until now. Or at the very least, all the way up to when the next tier was released. T14 has only been out for roughly 3 months, plus people have to level and gear their characters first. Those numbers will probably come up to around the same level as the prior tiers over time.

[pimpeddakota]

25vp per boss kill... Oh how that would make me laugh

[dodonpachi]

25vp per boss kill... Oh how that would make me laugh

25 man raids now give tabard rep >.<

[Subbversion]

Try reading some of the other posts. The one 2 posts above yours pretty accurately explains why you are wrong. I'll even quote the relevant part to make it easy.

Eh, speculation about speculation. Who knows who is right or wrong. Time will tell.

[pimpeddakota]

25 man raids now give tabard rep >.<

oh I like this one!

[Sobedesce]

Either 25m loot is gonna come upgraded 1/2 or 2/2 or they're gonna follow what already happens on KR servers with separate lockouts for 10/25 and higher ilvl on 25m, what, if doesn't push 10m into the "casual" raid size even more, is going to, at least, make people complain about how they HAVE to complete both lockouts every single week to remain competitive.
Seeing as he said controversial, I'd bet it's the latter