Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Demeia]

I think removing the shared lockout would both solve the issue AND be amazingly controversial. All those 10m "world first" guilds needing to find another 15 ppl for the roster again or get outgeared heavily by the competition.

I think it would actually be "a bit" controversial--just like the phrase he used. It would certainly be different from 10/25 raiding in that the gear we would be getting and the challenge associated with it would be markedly different. Ten man gear was easier making it especially tedious back in Wrath; this would be a touch better. We would gear faster, we would likely get burned out faster, but they could always argue that giving us "more things to do" isn't a bad idea.

As you point out, it definitely reinvents the 25m PuG and that just has to be viewed as a positive. It also cannot destroy 10m raiding while it also buffs 25m. It's only the burnout. I admit that I'm not sure how I'd feel about raiding 4 nights a week instead of 2...

[Deleted]

more things to do in the area of gaming that you like wouldn't be a bad thing.

A lot of the critisism from the raiding population about the tight connection of daylies and rep grinding. Is probably because it is areas of the game that they do not like but that they feel compelled to do in order to stay competetive, in their minds,in the part of the that they really like which is raiding.
Sure a lot of people argue that you do not have to grind reps and daylies, but if your a person who wants to give it your best in this hobby that you might consider a sport well then the position that daylies and repgrinding is optional is simply not valid. And then it ends up being a question if you can find the motivation and most importantly time to do what you feel is necessary to be competetive in your sport.

Personally i think raiders would probably rather for some time raid a new raid instance 2 times a week with their main than having to raid and do daylies rep grind. So 10/25 seperate lockout although controversial as stated above could be nice.

[Photek]

Different times my friend.

Many Guilds were raiding with other guilds together, not high end raids but "lower" raids were often formed by 2 guilds, so this cut simply told them to raid with on their own.

Also, there was only a single size, no 2 sizes as they are now which is important because both sizes are affected by this differently.

And lastly, during BC you still had new players coming into the game so that the total number of players grew, which helped to form new Raids.

Now, there aren't that much new players anymore as during Bc / Wotlk.

I knew none guilds going together so they could raid 40man (at least not on the realms I played), not sure what are you talking about there. In fact, when the split happened a lot of guilds were formed (not merged as you try to imply) because older guilds had way too many people. The same will happen if they change to 15man.

It doesn't matter there are 2 sizes now, it will affect the playerbase the same way affected the playerbase on vanilla. Be it recruiting or kicking. Both are a hassle.

I still see new players or rerolls or even alts looking to raid, wasn't the last number 10M subscribers?

[Espe]

as you can see it is clearly

As you should be able to see, the question may have been about LFR but the answer was about 25s in general. They may take more logistical (read: outside of the actual raid instance) planning, but they are much, much easier to execute and reward more drops per boss than 10m.

There is a reason that LFR isn't 10m

[DakonBlackblade]

Im completly against the idea of doing anything to "save" 25 man raiding, ppl dont do 25 because they dont want to, theres already enought incentive, the speed in wich a 25 man raiding team gear is enormous both because more loot per player drops and also because the number of itens that drop make it alot easier for specific itens you or someone else is interested at dropping, you can go 10 raid weeks whithout seeing your Elegon trinket dropping on 10 man for instance and it wont be back luck, the probability of this happening is not very low, while on 25 youre more tham likely to see the same trinket dropping 5 or so times in 10 weeks.

Just leave it as it is the comunity drifted towards 10 man naturaly, its pretty clear wich model ppl prefer.

[Photek]

Im completly against the idea of doing anything to "save" 25 man raiding, ppl dont do 25 because they dont want to, theres already enought incentive, the speed in wich a 25 man raiding team gear is enormous both because more loot per player drops and also because the number of itens that drop make it alot easier for specific itens you or someone else is interested at dropping, you can go 10 raid weeks whithout seeing your Elegon trinket dropping on 10 man for instance and it wont be back luck, the probability of this happening is not very low, while on 25 youre more tham likely to see the same trinket dropping 5 or so times in 10 weeks.

Just leave it as it is the comunity drifted towards 10 man naturaly, its pretty clear wich model ppl prefer.

Loot per player drop is lower on 25 than 10. 10man gear up individuals faster than 25 while progression and the coin made it even worse. There is no incentive to raid 25 but the feel of doing something harder.

[Deleted]

As you should be able to see, the question may have been about LFR but the answer was about 25s in general. They may take more logistical (read: outside of the actual raid instance) planning, but they are much, much easier to execute and reward more drops per boss than 10m.

There is a reason that LFR isn't 10m

Yup there is, that reason is the instance is tuned in a way where 8-9 people can carry the others and it gives shorter queues as there is more dps per healers/tanks. That is not related to actual raiding at all as 25HC is tuned in a way where you cant carry people while being in progress, you are free to believe 25 man is a joke in comparison but that's is far from the actual tuning when going above normal modes. There is quite a few mechanics that will wipe the entire 25 man group from just 1 player fucking up, wall flower right there. Quoting things out of context and twisting words wont prove anything.

[Radalek]

I'll just quote what I said in another thread.

There's one more thing that people often miss...every time 25 man guild dies a community that said 25 man guild was dies as well. Large, breathing, live community dies. It's hurting the game so much. And with all due respect 10 man guilds are rarely community on its own. 25 man guilds are always one. And having big guilds dying is destroying one of the pillars that made this game great.

[Deleted]

...but they [25 mans] are much, much easier to execute and reward more drops per boss than 10m.

Not wanting to go into the 25v10 thing, but that statement is grossly generalised and is not at all true in quite a few cases.

[Tiberria]

Loot per player drop is lower on 25 than 10. 10man gear up individuals faster than 25 while progression and the coin made it even worse. There is no incentive to raid 25 but the feel of doing something harder.

That is completely, 100% false. 10 mans drop 2 items per boss - 1 item per 5 players. 25 mans drop 6 items per boss - 4.2 items per player. On top of that, even if it were even, you'd gear up 50% faster in a 25 man because there are more chances of individual things dropping and less chances of items dropping that are of no use to anyone in the raid. If the primary concern is gear and how fast you gear, people would already want to be doing 25 man.

[Espe]

Quoting things out of context and twisting words wont prove anything.

Then just stop doing it.

Ghostcrawler specifically stated he wanted to figure out a way to reward the leadership of 25m guilds for their extra "logistical effort" (i.e. OUTSIDE of the raid instance.) My rebuttal should be obvious; they are already rewarded with faster nerfs to content through higher gear drops, more battle rezes per attempt, easier comp requirements and much, much less executional responsibility per person.

If you want to give their guild leaders/ officers a few extra gold per kill or whatever for having to deal with a few more minor details outside of raid, so be it. But the majority of 25m raiders already have plenty of incentives to keep on coasting to their easy epics.

[Radalek]

Then just stop doing it.

Ghostcrawler specifically stated he wanted to figure out a way to reward the leadership of 25m guilds for their extra "logistical effort" (i.e. OUTSIDE of the raid instance.) My rebuttal should be obvious; they are already rewarded with faster nerfs to content through higher gear drops, more battle rezes per attempt, easier comp requirements and much, much less executional responsibility per person.

If you want to give their guild leaders/ officers a few extra gold per kill or whatever for having to deal with a few more minor details outside of raid, so be it. But the majority of 25m raiders already have plenty of incentives to keep on coasting to their easy epics.

You're the one quoting things out of context and twisting words by having that sig which was talking about LFR only.
And while you're at 'easy' epics go and ask Paragon what they think of raid size, how easy 10 man was for them and why they wish they could still raid 25 so they actually have some competition.
And to counter your false statements again:
'More battle rezes per attempt': There's 25 people vs 10, much more chances something will go wrong thus 3 battle rezes. You could even argue that there should be more since on any harder progress boss you have more, not less, excecutional responsibility in 25 man due to needing to keep focus and composure of 25 people without any room for mistake compared to 10. Also logistical efforts devs were talking about were in the raids due to vastly higher difficulty of organizing and managing 25 people and making them work as one unit.

Main difference in difficulty between 10 and 25 man comes on harder bosses due to 10 mans being balanced around not always having all the raid buffs needed and ideal comps. Because of that you have higher dps and hps requirements in 25 man raids since it's expected (rightly so) to have all that. But when you have best 10 man guilds that are basically always able to get the best comps and all raid buffs needed then it makes some hard fights trivial compared to their 25 man counterparts. Just look at the most magnificent recent raid boss, Ragnaros heroic. It wasn't even comparable.

[Blablubs12]

Why do you even bother discussing with Espe? It's so damn obvious that he has never played 25 man on a higher level nor do I think that he is part of a good 10 man raid. It's true that some bosses are harder in 10 man and others in 25 man, that will always be the case since it's not possible to tune it completely equal, deal with it. However, if you look at Cataclysm in general, there were more harder 25 man bosses than 10 man. This, however, doesn't mean that it is harder for one specific player. It is not harder for one player run out of the group with a debuff in 25 man than in 10 man, but as there are more players, there's more possibility of failure. Therefore, the boss is harder in 25 man even though it's not harder for a specific player. Apart from that, many bosses become difficult through tuning, and most 10 man Enrage timers are not as tightly tuned as in 25 man (Ultraxion, Baleroc, ...).

As a conclusion, if an equally skilled 25 man and 10 man raid would race for a first kill, the 10 man raid should usually get it first even though both players play equally good. Still, it's not harder in 25 man for a specific player, it's just more likely that one player fails and therefore more unlikely that everything runs properly.

[Count Zero]

Could I get some confirmation on how many items drop from 25 ? I really could have swore it was 6 items, and I'm generally the lootmaster in our raids so I figured I had a good idea -- but I was talking with my guild about these topics (how they plan to incentivize 25s without disincentivizing 10s) and they assured me it's only 5 pieces that drop in 25.

I've seen folks in here referencing 6 drops from 25 but I'm pretty confused about it, since multiple people in my guild maintained it's only 5 drops

[Radalek]

Could I get some confirmation on how many items drop from 25 ? I really could have swore it was 6 items, and I'm generally the lootmaster in our raids so I figured I had a good idea -- but I was talking with my guild about these topics (how they plan to incentivize 25s without disincentivizing 10s) and they assured me it's only 5 pieces that drop in 25.

I've seen folks in here referencing 6 drops from 25 but I'm pretty confused about it, since multiple people in my guild maintained it's only 5 drops

Five on normal, 6 on hc.

[Deleted]

Why do you even bother discussing with Espe? It's so damn obvious that he has never played 25 man on a higher level nor do I think that he is part of a good 10 man raid.

Yup, I remember seeing his armory 1-2 months ago and of couse he was in a terrible 10 man guild with no heroic kills at all. A person like this is still entitled to his opinion but seeing that he has no experience in 25 man and no experience in heroic at all (maybe he have now but not back then) so his opinion on what is harder has zero truth to it.

As a conclusion, if an equally skilled 25 man and 10 man raid would race for a first kill, the 10 man raid should usually get it first even though both players play equally good. Still, it's not harder in 25 man for a specific player, it's just more likely that one player fails and therefore more unlikely that everything runs properly.

I totally agree, because of the higher chance of failiure it will take longer to get a boss kill in 25 man even if its slightly easier when it comes to numbers (its usually not).

[Talen]

How can they know? And how did it kill 10 mans before when they didn't even exist before that at the first place. That's pure speculation. The only thing they can look at are the numbers on asian servers and 10 mans are not dying there and 25 mans are getting revitalized.

They can know because they look back at TBC and LK when the Korean situation was essentially mirrored on NA and EU servers as well. We know what will happen because its been done before.

Big rule? Players go after gear. Its the aim of the game and it makes players better in just about every single aspect from soloing to raiding. You put better gear somewhere, you can expect players will flock to it...even if they hate the mechanics involved.

This is partially why the old model was removed. And its what Blizzard seems to want to avoid now. Vanity gear, pets, titles, etc are the same, albeit to a lesser degree.

EJL

[Deleted]

How can they know? And how did it kill 10 mans before when they didn't even exist before that at the first place. That's pure speculation. The only thing they can look at are the numbers on asian servers and 10 mans are not dying there and 25 mans are getting revitalized.

10 men is "dying" on asian servers. I mean it's wotlk all over. They do 25 men, get all BiS with more ilvl from there than go 10 men and say it's faceroll. You see more 10 kills on wowprogress because it's easier with increased ilvl for the 25 counterpart, so they do get more kills there, but they are still doing a content with more gear then intended.

[Deleted]

10 men is "dying" on asian servers. I mean it's wotlk all over. They do 25 men, get all BiS with more ilvl from there than go 10 men and say it's faceroll. You see more 10 kills on wowprogress because it's easier with increased ilvl for the 25 counterpart, so they do get more kills there, but they are still doing a content with more gear then intended.

If that is the case and they are running both modes how is 10 man dying lol? Maybe strict 10 man guilds are dying but who cares when you can do both.

[Enosh]

If that is the case and they are running both modes how is 10 man dying lol? Maybe strict 10 man guilds are dying but who cares when you can do both.

so 25 man guilds dying is a big tragedy that has to be fixed, but 10 man guilds dying is "who cares"

nice double standard there