GC: In vanillla, hybrids could only heal (except warriors)

[wariofan1]

The term "vanilla" has no clear definition. I tend to not think of the late term changes that include moonkin as part of vanilla. Frankly, I dont think of AQ as part of vanilla. Call it vanilla with sprinkles.

The time frame you are referring to included major content and class changes. The time period I think we're discussing is when the final ferla talent was an extra combo point when using pounce. In other words, when even if you where playing feral you specced into restoration because the talents where simply more useful.

When saying Vanilla people most often refer to anything Pre-TBC and anything post-Beta. We could also call it Classic WoW if you prefer that.

[Dazzy]

Statements like these really outrage me, because they make Devs look like fools. It's as if they were not playing their own game.

In reality, I remember my guild raiding during Vanilla, with Rets as DPS, Moonkins DPS, ferals as DPS, and Shadow Priests as DPS (who were also over buffed during the final stages of Vanilla) though we had dramah every day and -mostly- druid tears about how Druids were doing soooo little DPS.

In reality, nobody really cared because there wasn't any reliable way to measure one's DPS. As long as you had decent gear and you had everything enchanted, getting a spot in a 40 man raid was really no problem, and that -yes- includes even Retardins who were raiding as Ret with that stupid legendary weapon which I forget now and they were perfectly viable.

I even remember days we couldn't find enough DPS to do MC or BWL, and Officers would ask if we had any friends -who knew tacts- willing to fill the Roster. Other days we raided MC with 32 people, or even 28. And there are people here -even Devs- who claim that hybrids couldn't raid as DPS in Vanilla.

The worst part is that this skewed opinion of GC, which he retained when he became Lead Systems Designer, led to pure DPS suffering the most massive nerf storm ever in this game while hybrids such as Ret, were buffed to such a ridiculous extent, that we ended up with Rets being more than Rogues, and many people within the Paladin community even equaling Ret to whole CLASSES such as Rogue or Hunter.

We often see people complaining about Ret's Arena, BG or Raid representation at the forums, arguing that they should be equally well represented with pure DPS classes, and that is Blizzard's fault because they spoiled Rets in particular in thinking of themselves as special and superior to the rest of us poor buggers who play pure DPS classes.

He wasn't saying "there was no moonkin form, there was no ret tree, there was no shadow tree" to be taken literally. He was saying, if you wanted to have even a 1% chance of killing anything you simply did not take those specs, and he is right. But I'm sure you already knew that, given the trolly feeling of your post.

[Kujako]

When saying Vanilla people most often refer to anything Pre-TBC and anything post-Beta. We could also call it Classic WoW if you prefer that.

Even then, I think of 'clasic' WoW as being as it was when it was released. But that may just be me.

[Sturmbringe]

Exactly Balance Druid. Not in moonkin for since it was not added. And you account records only show dates that came after TBC.

You guys are amazing. Can't you read 03/01/2006? Haha. 03 January, 2006. Moonkins did exist in Vanilla, stop making yourselves look like fools.

[Deathgoose]

Paladins were "Ret" in Vanilla because Kings was the 31 pt Ret talent, and you could go 20/0/31 and still have all of the important healing talents so you could stand in the back of the raid in your dress and be the buff/cleanse bot.

[Deleted]

Paladins were "Ret" in Vanilla because Kings was the 31 pt Ret talent, and you could go 20/0/31 and still have all of the important healing talents so you could stand in the back of the raid in your dress and be the buff/cleanse bot.

Didn't blessing used to last 5 minutes? and then 15? and then 30? etc

[BeastmasterGuardian]

You guys are amazing. Can't you read 03/01/2006? Haha. 03 January, 2006. Moonkins did exist in Vanilla, stop making yourselves look like fools.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Moonkin_Form

Patch 1.8.0 (2005-10-10): Significant talent changes. Added Moonkin Form.

You were right about that, but sadly wrong about almost everything else you've said. This is the 2nd thread I've seen started by you hating on someone or something. If the game infuriates you so much, you might want to pick a new game. I'm not trying to be mean, just honest.

[Sturmbringe]

And yet, I tanked everything other then Nax40 (shrug). Was a lot of fun, sorry you didn't get to do it.

@Kujako: Respect man. I remember our bear Druid tanking Garr in MC.

[Detheavn]

Moonkins were not in vanilla cause druids were mana batteries for priests.

Changed to reflect our raids

[Kujako]

Didn't blessing used to last 5 minutes? and then 15? and then 30? etc

Oh the blessings.... I had to write an add on that removed Salvation from me automatically because the Paladins were using one that auto cast it on all Druids. I'd forgotten about those.

[Mad_Murdock]

Statements like these really outrage me, because they make Devs look like fools. It's as if they were not playing their own game.

I'm going to go with

Now, knowing our community, that will get misinterpreted,

[Byniri]

Also:

Link to one of our raids in Vanilla. Note HYACHA, Balance druid.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7819/wownew1.jpg

That's not a Druid...

[wariofan1]

You guys are amazing. Can't you read 03/01/2006? Haha. 03 January, 2006. Moonkins did exist in Vanilla, stop making yourselves look like fools.

We do acknowledge that they EXISTED, but any Druid who wanted part in any form of PvE would not go Balance, either Bear Form for Zul'gurub and early MC, or Resto for everything else. Moonfire spam was a viable thing in PvP though, as long as you stood behind a tank, and again, you would rather want a Resto Druid or a Mage.

[Deleted]

@Kujako: Respect man. I remember our bear Druid tanking Garr in MC.

Of course you remember on Garr, because that fight needed at least 5 tanks.

[BeastmasterGuardian]

Moonkins were not in vanilla cause druids were restoration.

Moonkin form was added in October 2005 in Patch 1.8. OP was right about that. Wrong about everything else, but right about Moonkins.

[Azutael]

There will always be exceptions to the rule, but the vast majority of hybrids did only heal in classic.
PvP was a different story, I have many fond memories of my druid in classic PvP. You might not have had great dmg, or great healing. But combined it made for a very powerful playstyle.

[BrerBear]

Yes I did actually play Vanilla and I also raided in Vanilla. I have been playing WoW since December 2005. In fact, I already posted a screenie of my Battlenet account and a screenie of one of our Vanilla raids, please quit those silly arguments.

I also raided in Vanilla, up through AQ and most of Naxx.
While it's true that you COULD bring along hybrid DPS like balance druids and ret palllies, it's also true that you could raid MC and BWL with 20 people, which my guild did all the time when we had attendance issues.

So yes, technically you are correct about MC and BWL. You could bring along someone with half the DPS of a true damage dealing class or just leave the slot empty. Meh.

But Ghostcrawler is absolutely right that hybrid DPS was not viable on challenging content. Making more specs viable is a feather in GC's cap that people do not give him enough credit for, and to claim otherwise is a nostalgia whitewash on WoW history.

[Deleted]

Oh the blessings.... I had to write an add on that removed Salvation from me automatically because the Paladins where using one that auto cast it on all Druids. I'd forgotten about those.

Yup.

Symbol of Kings
Buffed that class only.
Lasted only 5 minutes.
As well as seals lasting only 30 seconds (or 1 minute?)

Palas didn't have it easy in vanilla!

[Callimonk]

The combat log wasn't updated I believe until 2.4. Until then dps addons used to talk with each other and make a kind of "educated guess", they didn't read other peoples damage from the combat log - it didn't work like that. Similar to how the threat meters worked until they added threat levels into the game.

Precisely this - the change in 2.4 (if I recall correctly) sparked the change that brought better damage meters like Skada and Recount. I recall that DamageMeters was honestly not that great an addon - it was incredibly easy to pad (I played resto shaman, and it would continuously record my heals before and after combat, for example), and overall... it just kind of sucked. Recount was amazing to my guild when it released - I don't recall if DamageMeters could link stuff in chat, but we were thoroughly impressed with it.

Note: I never actually raided in Vanilla, other than ZG which I don't recall being a "real" raid (due to how overgeared the rest of the players were - I was a late starter :P ) that late in the game. My first raid was Gruul's Lair in early BC.

[wariofan1]

Of course you remember on Garr, because that fight needed at least 5 tanks.

5 tanks, 4 Warlocks. Keep Banish up on 4 Firesworn, let 4 tanks take the remaining 4 Firesworn, 1 on Garr. GG. It's amazing how simple the fights actually were back then, only Ragnaros actually had phases in MC.