Why NOT give 25 Man Raiding Higher ilvl Loot?

[Hiricine]

Mostly because blizzard has failed at balance design when it comes to 10 vs. 25 man raiding. They can't make a 10 man raid difficult enough without making players feel punished for bringing the "wrong" classes.

Anyways, putting better gear in 25 mans would absolutely not destroy 10 man raids. There were probably even MORE 10 mans in Wrath when big raid guilds would run multiple difficulties and multiple sizes of raids a week. Blizz should put in incentives to make people play the game more, not less.

[araine]

Logistics is not a valid reason to give out better loot. Maybe more loot, or more VP and gold. If you want a higher level of loot for 25m then they would need to rais the difficulty in relationship to the ilvl increase. And honestly why does it matter that it doesn't drop higher gear right now?

If people are concerned about logistics of running 25 mans is more difficult, The answer to that logistics question is not to allow 25man's to drive down the road without having to worry about the speed limit everyone else has to follow. Guilds can compensate this with in the guild structure 5000g a week / officer for the hard work of keeping 2-3 raiding nights in 25man going,

But beware folks in your guild will probably view it as you stealing guild money for your own benefit when you pooch this much from the guild funds . But if you feel like logistics compensation is what you need, the tool is already in the game, It is called withdraw guild fund for personal benefit

[Sarella]

Wouldn't a better solution be to have 25 man heroic tuned to a lower difficulty and award lower ilevel loot? I mean, since 25 mans believe they're more of a challenge then a better solution would be to have a lower ilevel, have it deal less damage so it's easier and add separate 10/25 achievements.

Surely this way 25 man raiders don't have to work so hard gearing up because it's tuned to be easier for them!

[Granyala]

You see, thats where I disagree. People would't feel forced as nothing is forcing them.

10 man has lower item level -> 10man is not the real raiding -> need 25man for gear!11 -> look down on 10man and belittle them.

Sound familiar? Well, it should. This is how it was during wrath. 10man raids basically were reserved for alt runs / a few friends runs (seperate lockouts yay) and used to hasten the gearing process by the hardcore crowd.

[Jaylock]

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't the case. Before the shared lockout, it was quite frequent for 10 man guilds to do 25s if only for loot to pad progression.

But why does a higher item level loot matter for people who enjoy 10 man raiding?

Also, with all of these replies, you all still havent addressed my having mentioned that the bosses would be harder in 25 man to justify the higher item level (which would be required / justified to help get the bosses down because of the increased difficulty)

[Dodrin]

Like others have said, giving 25 mans higher ilvl gear drops means that most raiders would feel forced to do 25s, because most raiders are very oriented towards obtaining the best gear. I think a solid fix for this would be to have 25 mans drop higher ilvl gear, but give 10 man raids a way to obtain the same ilvl gear. Something like currency you gain from killing 10 man bosses that can be used to upgrade to the 25man ilvl.

[araine]

But why does a higher item level loot matter for people who enjoy 10 man raiding?

Also, with all of these replies, you all still havent addressed my having mentioned that the bosses would be harder in 25 man to justify the higher item level (which would be required / justified to help get the bosses down because of the increased difficulty)

It doesnt matter if they are harder or easier it is irrelevant, what matter is that it will become the infacto only real raid and you will be FORCED to do 25mans if you want to raid since not going for the BiS gear means you gimp yourself in whatever you are doing. And the side bonus you will kill off 99% of all 10 man guilds yay what could go wrong as they say.

[Lothaeryn]

You see, thats where I disagree. People would't feel forced as nothing is forcing them. The progression path is the same. They complete normal mode, then they vie for heroic mode just like it is now.

As i said before, the increased difficulty of 25 man would be there, and they would have to realize that it would harder for their guild to get into that type of raid environment without the increased effort to organize and prepare their members for it.

You clearly never did ICC when it was relevant then, when everyone would criticize you for not having T10v2 and refused to invite you solely on the basis that your gear was from 10man.

The disparity between 10 and 25man loot was too large, because it essentially meant if you wanted to do heroic modes for either 10 or 25 man, you NEEDED 25man gear in order to help mitigate the difficulty in both versions.

I remember having 25man guilds overgearing their members for the sake of getting 10 man heroic achievements and selling runs to people to get them too.

And on top of this, the community pretty much ignored 10man altogether, since it was not optimal gear nor was it optimal "content" to begin with, anyone who was in a progression raid guild only did 10man if they never had enough people to do 25 man for that night, not because they wanted to, but because it was better than not having the chance at loot at all (and for the most part, only heroic mode 10man was even useful for 25man, the rest of the stuff those guilds sold on the AH).

25man loot disparity just made 10man irrelevant to anyone who was a raider, it was a waste of time in their eyes since the gear was subpar to what they could actually get. And in most cases people felt 10man loot was a waste of time and resources on blizzard's part too.

Thats why they merged the item lists, because no one liked the system.

PLUS: everyone hated the fact that legendaries were only 25man exclusives, which caused alot of stigma between 10 and 25 man guilds.

[araine]

Wouldn't a better solution be to have 25 man heroic tuned to a lower difficulty and award lower ilevel loot? I mean, since 25 mans believe they're more of a challenge then a better solution would be to have a lower ilevel, have it deal less damage so it's easier and add separate 10/25 achievements.

Surely this way 25 man raiders don't have to work so hard gearing up because it's tuned to be easier for them!

Shouldnt be any different than what they suggest upon 10 man raids. have 25man be the kumbaya mode where you sing and get items that are 8 ilvls lower than 10man. But they will drop 10 items on each boss and 10k gold on each kill but share lockout. You got so much incentive to run 25man this way only thing you didnt get was higher item level, yeah i feel you would be furious on a change like this since it would make 25man the lolmode of normal raids

[Deleted]

You see, thats where I disagree. People would't feel forced as nothing is forcing them. The progression path is the same. They complete normal mode, then they vie for heroic mode just like it is now.

As i said before, the increased difficulty of 25 man would be there, and they would have to realize that it would harder for their guild to get into that type of raid environment without the increased effort to organize and prepare their members for it.

No one is forcing people to do dailies yet most ppl QQ about "having" to do that many dailies to stay competitive. Same would happen with better loot from 25-man, because people doing 10-mans would either need to do the double amount of raids or give up 10-mans.

[Deleted]

This question comes from me not understanding why people would be opposed to such a change.

Why should Blizzard NOT give higher item level loot in 25 player raids?

I mean, if they justified the higher item level loot by increasing the difficulty slightly in 25, and also with the logistical problems involved in creating 25 player guilds, why would this be a bad thing?

Lets create an example to help me illustrate my point:

If 10 man raiding is kept a challenge, and several guilds like the 10 man style, why would it matter if better gear is in 25 man, especially if it is a little more difficult to obtain? You would still progress through the raiding environment with your guild on your own schedule. You would eventually get to 10 man heroic raiding, and once you beat all the encounters in 10 man heroic raiding, you are done. Your guild is the most progressed in the game. You have essentially completed the game completely. (i currently raid in a 10 player environment very casually, as I am not hardcore anymore like i used to be)

So i ask again, why NOT give higher ilvl loot to 25 player raids?

Caution: Please do not make this into a 10 vs 25 man debate because it could be locked if you do so.

make 25 mans harder and make ppl cry more? lol "lol 25 mans are too hard, i'd rather raid 10 and get lesser loot" will be the next whinage

[Saft]

I'd rather give them more benefits than higher ilvl. Pugging icc25/toc25 in wrath was a necessity not only because of higher ilvl but mostly because trinkets from 25m were always bis, Solace was the wet dream for any healer and so was dbw for any melee, 10m trinkets were in almost all cases vastly overshadowed.
If the loot table was the same but with slight ilvl difference it wouldn't be nearly as bad as it was.

[Jaylock]

make 25 mans harder and make ppl cry more? lol "lol 25 mans are too hard, i'd rather raid 10 and get lesser loot" will be the next whinage

Essentially it would make 25 mans like challenge mode dungeons now. If you and your guild wanted to expand up to 25 man raiding you could, and there would be justified rewards for doing so. Inevitabely it would lead to more people being interested in 25 man raiding, but those who like 10 man raiding would STILL RAID 10 MAN!

Nothing would change except give those who are considering / teetering on going up to 25 man that extra push to do so.

Edit: Thank you all for keeping it on topic, and off one mode is better than another!

[Veliladon]

Both formats should have been scrapped and replaced with three+LFR difficulty 15 man (2-3-10) at the start of cata.

Any 25 man guild worth their salt would have had enough of a bench to split into two 15 groups.

[Deleted]

I'll answer with a question:

Why give? 25 rewards with more loot already per raider, isn't that enough?

[gamingmuscle]

But why does a higher item level loot matter for people who enjoy 10 man raiding?

For those that prefer 10m format over 25 and that is the deciding factor for them, then likely nothing would change. But this is a subset of those that do 10mans.

And then there will be plenty of people that the primary reason for raiding is gear. Why raid for ilevel x when you can do the same "content" and get ilevel x+y.

[Deleted]

Because competitive guilds, like paragon, can clear normals one week in 25man and then heroics the next week in 10man, with much higher ilvl loot than they should have.
bad ideas are bad. Stop moaning about ilvl, you dont need higher ilvl to prove that 25man is bigger and badder and harder than 10man, but i guess people cant live with the fact that they "do harder" raids so "they are better" ... its a game for crying out loud, why try and punish people who cant raid 25man, due to pc reasons or the fact that they cant get a roster together cause their server is bad by giving them sub standard crap. They did it in ICC, and it was valued by being a completely different lock out. If you want the "gear split" go get what the korean servers have and petition for seperate raid lock outs.

[Granyala]

But why does a higher item level loot matter for people who enjoy 10 man raiding?

90% of the community don't do what's enjoyed, they do whatever has the best reward/time invested ration.

Sad but true.

[Deleted]

what they should do , same loot , 10man needs to upgrade it , 25man is fully upgraded allready.
Simple and easy solution.

[Deleted]

why not? Because then we are back to wrath with people feeling forced to run 25mans, and you also make 10s usless as people run them as 25s, get better look, overpower the 10mans, claim 10mans are easier....

Also, when given the choice people have OVERWHELMINGLY chosen to raid 10mans over 25s. i dont see why this is a problem, if people choose not to do 25s, so what? thats not a problem, its a choice, dont "force" or incentivise them, just leave it a free choice.

Its like saying, most peple voted for Party A, lets incentivise them to vote for party B next election....um what?