Winning against undergeared people is not rewarding

[pkm]

I don't see the problem, those people with the higher gear also once had the same lower end gear, they put in more time and effort and they get more from it, stop wanting everything handed to you, People who have just dinged 90 don't do anywhere near the DPS/HPS in Raids as people who are HC raiders, because they put the time and effort in to get gear which makes them better

Skill plays a HUGE factor in it, I've beat people with better gear than me, I've seen my brother who was lvl 89 kite two 90s to death because he is insane at his class, Gear should play a certain factor because it shows you've spent the time to improve your character

What class does your brother play? What were the other 2 classes? Were they geared or freshly dinged 90s?

[Reith]

I don't see the problem, those people with the higher gear also once had the same lower end gear, they put in more time and effort and they get more from it, stop wanting everything handed to you, People who have just dinged 90 don't do anywhere near the DPS/HPS in Raids as people who are HC raiders, because they put the time and effort in to get gear which makes them better

Skill plays a HUGE factor in it, I've beat people with better gear than me, I've seen my brother who was lvl 89 kite two 90s to death because he is insane at his class, Gear should play a certain factor because it shows you've spent the time to improve your character

Yeah I mean wintraders spent a lot of time wintrading to improve their characters.

[GKLeatherCraft]

What class does your brother play? What were the other 2 classes? Were they geared or freshly dinged 90s?

He was a hunter, (i know, they had it great at the beginning:P) and the other classes were Lock and Pala, both had dinged a week before him so also had a good 150k HP more than him,

---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 01:02 PM ----------

Yeah I mean wintraders spent a lot of time wintrading to improve their characters.

Yeh because everyone who has good gear win traded to get it -.-'
Considering blizz rolled back a ton of people who participated in win trading, it doesn't really remain relevant

[knusern]

actually, its mostly skill, then gear. Class doesn't matter, a fotm class can help alleviate it somewhat but when you don't know wtf you're doing it shows, and you'll always die no matter what gear you have.

You know those idiots who buy 2.2k rating or glad? yeah, they suck and will always suck. Gear doesn't mean shit in this game if you don't know what the hell you're doing.

You have no clue at all. none. At the moment it is gear>skill>class. Skill is relative, since when you reach around 1800-2200 range most people are at the same level, and it's gear>class>skill again. In vanilla, TBC, and even a little in Wrath you could outplay people and get glad range without the top gear, now it's utterly impossible.

To the other person saying they shouldnt completely negate gear, I somewhat agree. Keep current system but make getting the conquest gear 5 times faster. Still about gear grind, but you catch up fast, you can try different specs (moonkin, feral, resto as druid for example), you can try different CLASSES in PvP, and you can fight on equal grounds. It's REALLY fun to learn a new spec class and start to master it in PvP

[Deleted]

Number 1 ranked world wide means shit when there is a different rating inflation as well as different competition depending on region/battlegroup. There is also no reward in aiming for rank 1 world wide, so what's the point, especially mid season.

So the fact he plays on the hardest and highest ranking US battlegroup means shit?

He plays with the likes of venruki whose also a global champion, Nadagast, Snutz, Sodah, Sodapoppin and a whole load of others who are familiar faces at arena events. And u say this is a bad battlegroup?

hes arguably on the strongest battlegroup in the world lmao

There's also still a handful of warriors who are playing better than him, and as shadow priest he makes a ton of mistakes (it's actually quite embarresing to watch him play shadow priest).

Where did i say he is the best Warrior or SPriest?

i was just making the point hes playing at top level...

Your point is irrelevant to what i said and also to this thread... im making the point that playing at high rated where everyone has the same gear is the only place u will witness PvP skill.

If u wanna slag off Reckful then please start a new thread.

I haven't seen Reckful play rogue since MLG in Wotlk, and of course during the first season of Cata. I could imagine that he is quite a bit more rusty as rogue in comparison to Khuna/Blazin/Samx.

Still doesnt effect my point, the fact hes been ranked no1 multiple times.

Also has jack to do with the point that he CANT play Rogue in arena cos he has no gear and itll take 2 months to get it. My point remains (which u choose to ignore) even the best player of a class cannot compete with a toon which has bad gear.

U wanna get Khuna, Blazin or Samx to play 2k+ arena with a blue geared Rogue and show us how good they are?

[Deleted]

So the fact he plays on the hardest and highest ranking US battlegroup means shit?

He plays with the likes of venruki whose also a global champion, Nadagast, Snutz, Sodah, Sodapoppin and a whole load of others who are familiar faces at arena events. And u say this is a bad battlegroup?

hes arguably on the strongest battlegroup in the world lmao

You didn't mention anything about how rating inflation is in play. Nor the fact that rating doesn't matter, but only if you are higher rated than your opponents. Since people in EU and US cant compete, you can't really say one player is better than another. It's actually pretty simple.

Where did i say he is the best Warrior or SPriest?

i was just making the point hes playing at top level...

Your point is irrelevant to what i said and also to this thread... im making the point that playing at high rated where everyone has the same gear is the only place u will witness PvP skill.

If u wanna slag off Reckful then please start a new thread.

I'm not saying Reckful is bad, I'm just saying that you can't say one player is better than another because he's had a higher rating than someone else, when those two players are playing in entirely different regions.

Still doesnt effect my point, the fact hes been ranked no1 multiple times.

Also has jack to do with the point that he CANT play Rogue in arena cos he has no gear and itll take 2 months to get it. My point remains (which u choose to ignore) even the best player of a class cannot compete with a toon which has bad gear.

U wanna get Khuna, Blazin or Samx to play 2k+ arena with a blue geared Rogue and show us how good they are?

Your point was that you said Reckful was the best rogue in the world on the basis that he a long time ago was in the highest rated team in the world. I'm just saying that is a false way of measuring who's the better player. Even you should be able to comprehend that.

[Deleted]

Winning against undergeared people doesn't give a reward (dopamine) because you know there was no skill involved. It is like beating the shit out of your innocent wife, it is like using cheat codes in a single player game. It is like beating an 8 year old kid in chess. There is literally no honor in doing this, and it further underlines how pointless the game is.

His work shouldn't be ignored. But neither should the PvP skill of his opponent be rendered null and void because of gear.

Rewards can always be provided for effort. For time spent. Should that reward be something which diminishes the effect of skill? Which causes a players chance of victory to be based upon a comparsion of their gearscore?

The gear grind has one benefit and that is to give PvP players something to do. Unfortuantely, it is also something which undermines and destroys PvP. It creates huge imbalances. it encourages anti-social behavior. It de-emphasises skill. It creates huge barriers agaisnt entry for PvP. It deters players from taking part. It inhibits the development of PvP within the game world. And so on.

Put simply, if the reward for doing PvP is gear so you can essentially win without thinking, then the reward is poorly thought out. Transmog gear. Battle Pets. Titles. Mounts. Tabards. Vanity items. All these and more would make suitable PvP rewards. For all that Blizzard want to bring PvP back, I can't think of any other single factor that holds it back more. I think PvP could have a far greater impact on the game if the various factors can be removed in favor of actual balance and gameplay. Stat or gear normalisation would allow that.



No...there's also class

Seriously tho, the fewer sources of imbalance there are, the better the system can be. I find PvP to be immense fun....but usually only if the gear doesn't give one side or the other a huge advantage. Once the gear level is close or equal, then we start to see skill, experience, class knowledge shine through.

The "one hit and you are dead" PvP style of WoW simply doesn't interest me. I get that there is a feeling of power in it, but I feel PvP, as a whole, suffers because of it. Blizzard can't really put in place systems and mechanics which rely on PvP because such systems and mechanics only really work if the PvP field is balanced. And that isn't the case with the gear grind applying to PvP.

EJL

Finally another visionary who gets it. It was a bliss reading your post.

[...]

To the other person saying they shouldnt completely negate gear, I somewhat agree. Keep current system but make getting the conquest gear 5 times faster. Still about gear grind, but you catch up fast, you can try different specs (moonkin, feral, resto as druid for example), you can try different CLASSES in PvP, and you can fight on equal grounds. It's REALLY fun to learn a new spec class and start to master it in PvP

Yup it is. I remember beta 5.0 where you could for free get a complete set of PvP gear. Its also something which is easily possible in GW2.

[Miko]

This difference in gear seems to me to be due to fucking PvE once again. The blue honor set that you can grind out in about a week and upgrade is 466. Arena gear is 483 I lvl and can reach 491. If you notice that the actual PvP power and PvP resil dosn't change much, its the actual "pve" related stats that go up a ton. It seems that it will be this way in 5.2 as well as our Arena gear that goes to honor gear will be nerfed down to 476, mean the "pve' stats will fall down and our PvP power and PvP resil will go up, it will go up to just about what the new 5.2 Arena set will have a few points less. However, the Arena gear will have retarded "pve" stats on it. SO this means anyone starting an alt or starting late in the season is once again fucked. 5.2 pvp dude = 460k health honor dude 390k health. This is all because blizzard dosn't want people farming honor gear to get into raids faster. Having less HP in the arena really fucks up trying to prevent burst. The issue to me has nothing to do with the way we earn gear, grinding it out is a part of how a mmo works. The game shouldn't be about pvp or pve and we shouldn't be given anything. TO me the issue has to do with the ilvl difference in the gear we are getting 466 to 491 is a big big ass problem and I don't understand for the life of me how blizzard can't see this shit.

[Deleted]

I myself also noticed this sad story...

If you ask me the solution would be to remove upgrade gear pieces (this will happen in 5.2) and remove the elite weapon bonus that you have...

This way the only gear difference is that of honor gear vs conquest gear which is better for balance. (just like the old days -.-)

It is almost impossible to get 2000 rating + if you have started mid season...

[Deleted]

I'm not saying Reckful is bad, I'm just saying that you can't say one player is better than another because he's had a higher rating than someone else, when those two players are playing in entirely different regions.

So u choose to ignore all the times the top teams in the world have played each other at events?

I think u will find the players Reckful plays against and with have all won plenty of events beating EU and Asian teams. Sure they lost on occasion to them as well. My point remains the same, theyre TOP LEVEL PLAYERS. Thats all i said, nothing more nothing less.

Jees dude i couldve picked any top ranked player to make my point...

MY POINT IS THAT WHEN EVERYONE HAS THE SAME GEAR THEN PVP IS ABOUT SKILL. - do uwanna actually discuss my point or what?

Or maybe u just wanna nitpick about whose the best Rogue in the world?

Your point was that you said Reckful was the best rogue in the world on the basis that he a long time ago was in the highest rated team in the world. I'm just saying that is a false way of measuring who's the better player. Even you should be able to comprehend that.

My point about the top Rogue in the world was merely to make a point that ONE OF THE BEST PLAYERS OF A CLASS EVER cant even play an undergeared toon... do u wanna actually discuss this point?

or maybe u just wanna nitpick about whose the best player which is sidetracking this thread?

[Dcruize]

My point about the top Rogue in the world was merely to make a point that ONE OF THE BEST PLAYERS OF A CLASS EVER cant even play an undergeared toon... do u wanna actually discuss this point?

Give him a blue geared warrior and he'll do a lot better than he's doing on a blue geared rogue - the problem with the example you're using is that rogues are at a disadvantage even when fully geared. Sure, he wouldn't be able to get rank1 with his blue geared warrior, but it could still be played competitively.

[Deleted]

Give him a blue geared warrior and he'll do a lot better than he's doing on a blue geared rogue - the problem with the example you're using is that rogues are at a disadvantage even when fully geared. Sure, he wouldn't be able to get rank1 with his blue geared warrior, but it could still be played competitively.

Finally someone discussing the actual point

I personally think that PvP shouldnt be at all gear-based and everyone who participates should be on equal level which means they should all have the same gear. I agree there are class imbalances and this is also an issue but why have two issues?

Why not get rid of the issue of gear differences and just live with the class differences?

NOTE: if anyones interested Reckful is playing SPriest on EU right now at 2200 with a 200ping.
http://www.twitch.tv/reckful

[Dcruize]

Having free pvp gear would cut down on the amount of time I'd play WoW - with no punishment for being inactive I would probably not play as much. You could have time off from the game without worrying about having to play catch up and when that happens, people get sucked into other games/activities/hobbies. No problem with that, unless you're running a subscription based game that needs to keep people addicted and engaged to generate revenue. Is your class UP? No problem, just take time off until they patch it - you won't be at a gear-derived disadvantage when/if you return so there's no need to continue playing it.

I'm not saying this model is right, this is just how I see the situation. I can imagine that a lot of teams would fall apart as it can be hard enough getting a group of people online at the same time as it is, and that's with a big incentive to do so. I'd be happy to see something like a steady drop in conquest prices for gear, so mid season it's cheaper (but still requires some effort).

[Deleted]

Removing the grind (gear normalization) would fix a major complaint about CRZ as well (PvE players and casual players getting owned by PvP players). People can still get outleveled, outnumbered, and outskillled but that's then a social issue (like it was in vanilla and TBC), so the balance issue would shift between level, numbers, and skill but those are more fair and boil down to personal responsibility. In any case the fights would be closer and therefore more emerging than the current faceroll madness.

Having free pvp gear would cut down on the amount of time I'd play WoW - with no punishment for being inactive I would probably not play as much. You could have time off from the game without worrying about having to play catch up and when that happens, people get sucked into other games/activities/hobbies. No problem with that, unless you're running a subscription based game that needs to keep people addicted and engaged to generate revenue. Is your class UP? No problem, just take time off until they patch it - you won't be at a gear-derived disadvantage when/if you return so there's no need to continue playing it.

I'm not saying this model is right, this is just how I see the situation. I can imagine that a lot of teams would fall apart as it can be hard enough getting a group of people online at the same time as it is, and that's with a big incentive to do so. I'd be happy to see something like a steady drop in conquest prices for gear, so mid season it's cheaper (but still requires some effort).

Business wise the model is currently profitable, but only for WoW (and RIFT).

I believe the model is wrong though. In the thread about "removing one thing from WoW" someone suggested the subscription fee. Imagine the domino effect of such a change. Should WoW switch to a different model monday 14 january 2013? No, Blizzard would need to change a lot. Can't do in one weekend. WoW has been around for a long time and changing the complete game by gear normalization would have huge impact.

Although kinda off topic I do want to discuss how to best deal with this issue from a practical/consumer point of view. What is the best response? I'd say quitting WoW altogether (thus not joining the grind game) and only play games which do not include a grind but are enjoyable is a good option but alas WoW veterans also have the networking/social factor in effect.

[Miko]

I'm ok with a little gear difference. I don't mind as an alt fighting a person's main, but the gear difference we have not is retarded. If they would tweek it just a little bit, it wouldn't be too bad, but this also effect pve mostly LFR queing. That is the root of the whole problem. They don't want us grinding bgs for gear to que lfr with. Which is stupid, players say they don't wanna farm the gear to que lfr. They also don't wanna do old LFRs to get the ilvl to do the new one. Unfortunatly by having to do new lfrs it will take longer to gear an alt to do the new one. Might as well keep our pvp gear the same, I really hate seeing it nerfed. 483 to 476 is just plain stupid.

[Deleted]

Having free pvp gear would cut down on the amount of time I'd play WoW

And thats a bad thing?

- with no punishment for being inactive I would probably not play as much. You could have time off from the game without worrying about having to play catch up and when that happens,

And thats a bad thing?

Whats wrong with players being able to take a month off, for some real life stuff for example?

Why must everyone be forced to play this game 24/7 to stay in the race?

Why cant PvP arena or BGs be a game which anyone can drop into Wow and then drop into Arena or BG and be able to play for fun at any time they like?

Why must people be forced to do 2 months grind in order to be able to be competitive?

This all looks to me like the words of the brainwashed, people who havent ever played other games.

[God8010]

The best part is even after countering every cooldown and using yours to the best left open only to watch his standard damage completely rape you because we buff everything with gear. To fall to the ground and watch him spin a 180 completely in place and walk away.

It would be more respectful to just piss on my corpse.

[Biggles Worth]

If all gear would be normalized people would bitch 10xtimes more about pvp not being balanced..

Never thought about that. Giving gear is a reason for them to not balance classes.

[Draknalor186]

do like u do with the challange modes, de-ilvl people, so everyone is the same =P

[Deleted]

do like u do with the challange modes, de-ilvl people, so everyone is the same =P

Got 9x gold, in some world top50 lists (did use some dirty tricks tho). Was fun indeed. What I like a lot about it is that its a prestige, a metagame, cosmetic rewards, completely optional for the main game. You could play WoW and only do one challenge mode every week and actually have a lot of fun (if its your cup of tea) without ever touching any raid or daily whatsoever. I believe challenge mode is a move in the right direction from Blizzard, but I know its their top tier for LFD and they won't make it replace anything. It won't affect raids or PvP.