Batman: Arkham Mafia

[Lysah]

That seems far more like luck than a solid town strategy.

Luck would have been trusting people with what they told me. I don't remember the specifics, but I explained to rolo, that game, how "testing" robo's doctor claim could have ended up as a loss for us. I wasn't going to use any strategy that had even a small chance of failure when I had a strategy that was guaranteed.

I even planned for rolo being SK instead of vigilante and had a lynch set up for him the next day if we didn't win with the last mafia kill.

At the end of the day, we didn't need robo whatsoever last game. We might not need NFT this game, no one has any idea what the set up is. I prefer to play forward and go for the win every day of the game instead of just complaining that one PR out of 30 players went missing.

[Loaf]

Listo and I were the docs?

[Dyra]

Listo and I were the docs?

I was wondering that too. I think Lysah might be on about the game prior to that where Robo was the Doc and combining it with last game where we had the Vigilante.

[Loaf]

I was wondering that too. I think Lysah might be on about the game prior to that where Robo was the Doc and combining it with last game where we had the Vigilante.

I guess that's a possibility. Lysah smells though /shrug

[Vanatos]

Hello crazy people of mmo-champ. Welcome to the nuthouse

Any chance i can get a catch-up post?

Welcome celtic209! With 2 posts in one day so far, you are already doing better than SaintSinner.

[Loaf]

Welcome celtic209! With 2 posts in one day so far, you are already doing better than SaintSinner.

that's funny lol

[Vanatos]

Glad you find it amusing Worgenite!

[keleb]

Ohh a lot of things has happened and after spending almost two days having troubles keeping up with the thread I've now caught up. I really dislike posting before I've caught up with the thread completely.

[To Lysah]I'd like to point out that YOU were the one who convinced most people to vote on Treann. You were an early "real" vote on him, and you did everything in your power to get him lynched. At one point, you even said that it was likely that he was the cop and that we should just lynch him otherwise. Don't pin this on other people when nearly everyone (including myself) followed YOUR logic to lynch Treann. Your logic turned out to be wrong and we lynched the cop. I'm unwillingly to bet that you're not very good at the game and that it was accidental, especially given that you could have voted on kel (who was proven by Firebert was more likely to be scum than Treann).

You make it seem Lysah's fault that people are following. Who is the biggest fool, the fool or the one following the fool? I'm not calling either Lysah or necessarily those following fools. If you follow Lysah (or anyone else) without thinking though, you are. You are not a fool if Lysah makes a good case and you consider the case for yourself and then happen to come to the same conclusion as Lysah. I think there were some people voting for Treann that are bigger fools than Lysah. Read into that what you want.

I would suggest any vigilantes to kill the two lurkers so we can still have a chance to get voter evidence. Vigi's goal is a town win and we can't win if we keep lurkers around all game. We also won't win if we waste our lynches on the lurkers. Just imagine having 8 people less in this game right now with the information we have.

My point is that there is a positive and a negative attached to both town and scum. In my opinion the our negative greatly outweighs our positive for lynching a lurker. Scums positive greatly outweighs their negative for keeping a lurker around. Lysah is generally very good at giving both sides of the spectrum. It is in my opinion she isn't doing that this time to attempt to not give away her position.

If we were to lynch a lurker right now, I believe we would have both town and scum jump on it. I don't believe there is enough of a separation in that vote to determine who is an isn't scum due to association with other scum. That is why I propose lynching someone else and having the vigi (what kind of batman game wouldn't have a vigilante) kill one of our lurkers. We do need the lurkers gone. I 100% agree with that, but we can't afford another free scum lynch.

I disagree with the action of asking the Vigilante to kill the lurkers. Having a player the vigilante thinks scum die and us letting us know the role of that player will give us more than vigilante killing a lurker. The gain of that is imo greater then any gain we might have from getting a voting record on a random active town. The voting record and actions (or lack of actions) of the lurker when pushed towards a lynch will give us a good amount of value as well.

I'm nor sure if I made sense with the above but I think we read more form lynching the lurker and vigilante killing "random" than us lynching random and vigilante killing "random".

Lysah has been playing for quite a while and this is how she plays every game. She pushes buttons and get people on tilt to the point where they lash out and often times mess up. She learns a lot of info by reading into how people respond and will often change her votes after their response because that response made her think that person wasn't scum If people wouldn't take things so seriously (really...some people get offended when someone votes on them or if they argue with them). Lysah COULD be scum and could have just been using that back and forth to throw people off their games and get them focused on a stupid back and forth instead of focusing on what actually matters to the game. It's a good strategy if you are scum. It may not be as effective if a townie (because others get lost in the situation and forget to push what they actually believe in), but either was (if she's a townie or scum) she is learning info. She will use that info as she sees fit.

Now I usually don't like this expression but: QFT

Pretty much an "x is always a good idea" isn't a good idea. Very few things are always or never. Like it's probably never a good idea to jump into lava.

If you are at Lord Incendius and are going to The Black Forge and are in a hurry, it's a good idea to jump into the lava

I've asked this myself a few times. What's the positive side to lynching a RC cop, even if the threat is they will be NKd? That's why I didn't switch over my vote. That's also why I tend to not vote for lurkers. It's easier to get away with the loss of a lurking town day 1 when the game is average sized. A game this size with the amount we have lurking is dangerous. If we kill them it gives scum a free day or 2 to vote without building suspicion. If we leave them alive, sooner or later we will get to the point where we need them to be active and vote for a town win and they won't be there. That's why I asked if we have a vigilante to make those lurking his kills (or hers). That way the vigi will give the town a beneficial kill even if its on a townie, and we build MORE of a vote tally on others to get info and build an evidence trail for endgame.

To me it's partly meta-game why you shouldn't blindly stop a lynch on someone who's claimed a TPR. The answer to the question of "Why did you claim said TPR?" would I think in all cases be something similar to "To stop the lynch". Now if one knew that claiming TPR would stop the lynch then we're in a bad position. Another bad thing that might have come from Treann's claim would be had another Cop counter claimed. Let's say that cop had also really been a cop we'd been in a situation where we'd perhaps lynched Treann, found Treann to be the real cop and then the following day lynched the other cop. A lot of ifs, but sometimes you have to ignore the claim. I can see what you're saying in no hurt in waiting, but there might sometimes be hurt in waiting.

I'm not certain what I'd done myself had I been here to follow it in real time. At Treanns claim of SK I would probably have switched to him had I come in then. But after his comment a few posts afterwards I'm not sure. As I mentioned before there were indications (apart from the claims) of him both having a TPR and SK and I'm not sure I really had my mind made up when I came to the thread to find the day ended, Treann lynched and revealed as Cop.


About the riddles. I'm having a similar idea to I think it was Arlee and foxxie. If I had thought of something of the like I would probably have made it so that The Riddler would be some sort of SK role who were only able to hurt those that couldn't solve the riddle and could only be hurt by those that could. If he at the start of each night gets told by mod who solved the riddle and who didn't so he can pick a target that isn't "protected" by having solved the riddle or if he just has to guess I don't know.


I think that people are sometimes reading to much into some thing and then completely ignoring other things. What everyone should keep in mind is that "Everything has something in it, but you shouldn't read something into everything." Everything except what Greeney writes is "tainted". Something I learned as a mod as the reason for the mod to stay out of as much as possible. What Greeney says is true and could be seen as something outside the game. Everything else even if it seems to not be in the game is if it is in the game thread. Why did player X ask that question to the mod in this thread and not in a PM? Why did player Y say 'we' instead of 'I'? Why did player Z attack player W? Why did you trust what I just wrote? Why didn't you? Why am I writing this? Has Worgen's brain exploded yet?

[Lysah]

Listo and I were the docs?

This is going to sound racist, but...




All doctors look the same to me. Sorry.

[Rollo]

That seems far more like luck than a solid town strategy.

That's what I'm getting at. In hindsight the plan worked because she wasn't lied to by Worgenite. If Worgenite had lied to her, if she didn't TRUST him completely as she said she did, she would have died that very night and our single doctor (Robo) would have been lynched. That would have been excellent play for scum if Worgenite truly was scum. Instead of just being down a doctor and having her death protected, we would have been down a doctor and a cop without knowing that it was Worgen who pulled the trick. I do think Lysah told a couple people in that eventuality, but that could have been a devistating outcome.

Here we are with one person trusting someone's role claim, but saying you can't trust someone else's. Iirc, Worgenite came out to you in a PM rather early in the game and you claimed to trust the doctor completely by day 3. Why not give Treann the same benefit of doubt? Why not come up with a full proof way to prove whether or not Treann claimed true?

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 06:58 AM ----------

Oh yeah it was listo not robo

[Lysah]

I had you kill Worgenite because I didn't trust him =p
And if the scum took me out, Silkku had all the information he needed to continue the plan.

I trusted Worgen because he knew I was the cop and I didn't die. I have no way to do the same with NFT this game.

You see it's all...

Part of the "plan."

[Loaf]

I had you kill Worgenite because I didn't trust him =p
And if the scum took me out, Silkku had all the information he needed to continue the plan.

I trusted Worgen because he knew I was the cop and I didn't die. I have no way to do the same with NFT this game.

wut?

and you told me several times throughout that game(most of them after the incident with Listo) that you did trust me

/hurt

[Lysah]

wut?

and you told me several times throughout that game(most of them after the incident with Listo) that you did trust me

/hurt

I did trust you, but this all goes back to a guaranteed win instead of a maybe win but I don't hurt anyone's feelings at least. I was 95% sure you were doctor, but leaving you alive could easily have come back to haunt me. Killing you made sure you weren't playing a great scum game. This was also the point in the game where we had 2 unknowns left, so, out of 3 people, we investigate one, shoot one in the back, and the game is over. If you were scum and I had rolo kill one of the unknowns and he hit a townie and you really were mafia the town would lose.

If you were telling the truth we could afford to kill a townie and still have one up on the mafians. If you were lying you would've been mafia and we could've lost if there were 2 left. It was the safest bet.

[Loaf]

I still don't understand your use of the word trust. You say you trusted me but then had me killed to make sure I wasn't scum. That's not trust :\ I wouldn't be making such a big deal about this tbh if Keleb didn't have that stupid kill order in place. I haven't finished a game alive since I was the vigi and not on Worgenite since like game 2 I think(died game 3, 4, 5, 6 and I think I started modding with 7. Died game 10 and 17(though 17 was the pokemon game) and I think every game since coming back I've died in some fashion).

I'll probably die this game too :\

[keleb]

if Keleb didn't have that stupid kill order in place.

Previously what you complained about wasn't the kill order but the ability to post night actions before night. Those were two separate things. But I won't go further into that part of the previous game. As for Lysah's tactic in that game iirc I think it was a flawless one. I can't bother looking up exactly what happened there but my memory of first seeing the tactic was something of "it doesn't matter what you do now robo, lysah has got you cornered" with the tactic of investigating one and leaving the other to live. Also, I don't quite see how this fits into this game any more. Conversation has gone away from the topic connected to this game.

[Loaf]

Previously what you complained about wasn't the kill order but the ability to post night actions before night. Those were two separate things. But I won't go further into that part of the previous game. As for Lysah's tactic in that game iirc I think it was a flawless one. I can't bother looking up exactly what happened there but my memory of first seeing the tactic was something of "it doesn't matter what you do now robo, lysah has got you cornered" with the tactic of investigating one and leaving the other to live. Also, I don't quite see how this fits into this game any more. Conversation has gone away from the topic connected to this game.

that's what was stupid about it :P I didn't want to take the time to type out the whole thing about it so I slacked. I liked the idea, just not the implementation.

[Rollo]

I did trust you, but this all goes back to a guaranteed win instead of a maybe win but I don't hurt anyone's feelings at least. I was 95% sure you were doctor, but leaving you alive could easily have come back to haunt me. Killing you made sure you weren't playing a great scum game. This was also the point in the game where we had 2 unknowns left, so, out of 3 people, we investigate one, shoot one in the back, and the game is over. If you were scum and I had rolo kill one of the unknowns and he hit a townie and you really were mafia the town would lose.

If you were telling the truth we could afford to kill a townie and still have one up on the mafians. If you were lying you would've been mafia and we could've lost if there were 2 left. It was the safest bet.

If he were scum you would have died the night following the day we lynched listo. You were targeted and protected. And I killed Majad. I didn't trust anything Silkku was saying to me, but I may have believed him after Majad came back traitor as he had told me. And even so, it was still a possibility you 3 were scum team trying to figure out in an elaborate fashion whether I was the vigi/SK or not. We got lucky we had the comp we did. Yes it worked, that doesn't make it any less lucky, planned, or perfect.

[Arlee]

Luck would have been trusting people with what they told me. I don't remember the specifics, but I explained to rolo, that game, how "testing" robo's doctor claim could have ended up as a loss for us. I wasn't going to use any strategy that had even a small chance of failure when I had a strategy that was guaranteed.

I meant more specifically, it didn't matter to lose the power roles because of the specific situation you were in. If you weren't in that situation (like this one) it would have mattered a whole heck of a lot that you got all the tpr's killed. Also, in this game we haven't lost "just one" tpr, we have lost three so far. Your refusal to at least admit that is possibly a dangerous thing is suspicious. Of course it's not a guaranteed lose, but it's also not really a position of strength either.

If you are at Lord Incendius and are going to The Black Forge and are in a hurry, it's a good idea to jump into the lava

Ah! I knew there was an exception to that one

I'm not certain what I'd done myself had I been here to follow it in real time. At Treanns claim of SK I would probably have switched to him had I come in then. But after his comment a few posts afterwards I'm not sure. As I mentioned before there were indications (apart from the claims) of him both having a TPR and SK and I'm not sure I really had my mind made up when I came to the thread to find the day ended, Treann lynched and revealed as Cop.

Personally the reason I didn't go along with that lynch was because the people pushing for it seemed more scummy (at least in the beginning) to me than he did, claiming that we risked nothing by lynching him when that obviously wasn't true. Of course then he did his role claim and it was ok, either he's claiming cop because he is or he got the idea from my post where I specifically mentioned he could possibly be the cop. And then he died before I had a chance to come back as well.

About the riddles. I'm having a similar idea to I think it was Arlee and foxxie. If I had thought of something of the like I would probably have made it so that The Riddler would be some sort of SK role who were only able to hurt those that couldn't solve the riddle and could only be hurt by those that could. If he at the start of each night gets told by mod who solved the riddle and who didn't so he can pick a target that isn't "protected" by having solved the riddle or if he just has to guess I don't know.

Honestly I think there are a few "fairly" safe assumptions at this point. The first one is, I think Batman is likely not a player character. The second is, I do believe keleb has the right of it here and the Riddler is a player character who is a sk. Also, the Psychiatrist guy is likely a vigilante.

In addition (less solid assumptions imo) I think we probably have a group of masons. If that is true just because people vote together or protect each other doesn't always mean they are scum (that assumption was nearly the town's undoing in Game 2). We possibly multiple tpr roles... Two cops wouldn't be very surprising/a cop and a back-up cop alternatively. There also might be different roles we haven't seen before. Like the possibility of a townie vigilante who only activates under certain circumstances (like a blood thirsty townie) or special bombs.

[Lysah]

The fact that several TPR have died in a game of 30 people, already, tells me that this game is role madness. If there were 15 VTs, the chance of 3/4 TPR dying is just too low.

Personally, I'm willing to bet that virtually everyone in this game has power of some sort. Maybe it isn't very good, with basic VT roles like back up cops that aren't actually "powerful," in the same sense, but would cause people to feel protective of their identity. That's why about 8 people are conveniently avoiding this thread entirely. I find it amazing that everyone continues to focus on me instead of the massive amount of players whom our argument is concealing.

The last and only two times I was meaningful scum I played in the background. I was not an active poster of the game in which I killed Worgenite until I knew I was one day from sealing the win. When I was Andree Dangelo/godmother I was competing for least posts in the thread the entire game. Of course I can be pretending to be town since I know this about myself, but I ask for people's faith in this game. I do not favor playstyle changes much as they are gambits at best, and as you can see from my previous cop game, I play mafia like a game of chess.

[Robozerim]

Luck would have been trusting people with what they told me. I don't remember the specifics, but I explained to rolo, that game, how "testing" robo's doctor claim could have ended up as a loss for us. I wasn't going to use any strategy that had even a small chance of failure when I had a strategy that was guaranteed.

I even planned for rolo being SK instead of vigilante and had a lynch set up for him the next day if we didn't win with the last mafia kill.

At the end of the day, we didn't need robo whatsoever last game. We might not need NFT this game, no one has any idea what the set up is. I prefer to play forward and go for the win every day of the game instead of just complaining that one PR out of 30 players went missing.

Wait, what?

Oh, I get it, you're mixing up some details. I was a doctor a couple games ago (and didn't get to roleclaim before a ninja got me) and last game I roleclaimed vigilante as a mafian. Okay, I think I follow you now. Also, what you say about there being a lot of people with power roles is probably true, considering that 3/4 deaths were power roles. Losing the cop does suck, hard, but for all we know we have a second cop or whatever the role is called that takes over for the cop after the cop dies. It's not the end of the world (that was avoided last game ;_.

I'm half tempted to throw my vote onto Eniah. He's been really quiet and came on to say that it can be easily explained only to not actually explain.