Patch 5.2 16446 - New Models (Titan, Dark Saurok, etc)

[Yogg-Saron, God of Death]

I didn't read through this thread, but judging by the small lightning still emanating from Ra-Den, and Lei Shen apparently having taken his heart, it seems likely that using Ra-Den's freshly harvested heart was what gave Lei Shen his thunder powers in the first place, while the other flesh might've been used to create The Divine Bell.

I mean, I haven't seen a Mogu with the ability to use lightning before, and yet here we have a Titanic creature, whose heart has been ripped out. If we pair that up with the knowledge that some Pantheon have been said to possess powers over certain elements, it doesn't seem too out-of-place that at the time of battle, Lei Shen was a normal Mogu (as far as a Mogu that strong can be normal) and earned his title of Thunder King and the powers after defeating Ra-Den?

[Soulwind]

Damn. But that's just weird. Why would they look so much different from other trolls?

For starters, these don't even have new skeletons or animations, and we know the playable models will.

But don't expect anything too different from these, take them as a preview of how they will look artistically.
The playable models won't arrive until the next expansion (or even later), anyway. And I'm not even sure if they'll show them before the official announcement.

[Nairobi]

I didn't read through this thread, but judging by the small lightning still emanating from Ra-Den, and Lei Shen apparently having taken his heart, it seems likely that using Ra-Den's freshly harvested heart was what gave Lei Shen his thunder powers in the first place, while the other flesh might've been used to create The Divine Bell.

I mean, I haven't seen a Mogu with the ability to use lightning before, and yet here we have a Titanic creature, whose heart has been ripped out. If we pair that up with the knowledge that some Pantheon have been said to possess powers over certain elements, it doesn't seem too out-of-place that at the time of battle, Lei Shen was a normal Mogu (as far as a Mogu that strong can be normal) and earned his title of Thunder King and the powers after defeating Ra-Den?

So then, doesn't this kind of beg the question of "what's the point of this being heroic only?"

Let's look at facts:
1) Lei Shin roflstomped this Titanic creation and tore out his heart, while he was a lowly Mogu
2) Lei Shin ate/consumed/merged with or whatever the heart/core/power of this creation to become MORE powerful
3) This would (assumedly) further weaken the creation
4) We just defeated the empowered, rezzed Thunder King

So, how would the weakened version of an adversary that, when at full strength, was defeated by a watered down version of the boss we just killed provide any challenge?

[ThePlanckEnergy]

That's my issue with the way it looks. Makes no sense.

I have to imagine, if they go with this interpretation, that defeating Lei Shen will allow Ra-Den to reclaim his heart or something, and power up. Still makes no sense as to why he would have been defeated in the first place.

Still find it a bit unbelievable that he was defeated and imprisoned against his will.

Also, if Ra-Den was tasked to oversee the Engine... why was Elegon there? Wasn't that what he was doing?

[Yogg-Saron, God of Death]

So then, doesn't this kind of beg the question of "what's the point of this being heroic only?"

Let's look at facts:
1) Lei Shin roflstomped this Titanic creation and tore out his heart, while he was a lowly Mogu
2) Lei Shin ate/consumed/merged with or whatever the heart/core/power of this creation to become MORE powerful
3) This would (assumedly) further weaken the creation
4) We just defeated the empowered, rezzed Thunder King

So, how would the weakened version of an adversary that, when at full strength, was defeated by a watered down version of the boss we just killed provide any challenge?

Hmh.. maybe the Titanic Watcher has leftover innate power that he restored over time? He was biding his time? We get help when we face Lei Shen, but not Ra-Den?

Ra-Den was already heavily wounded when they fought?

Lei Shen may be weaker because he was resurrected recently?

[Keoren]

He got his heart torn out. There's little telling what effect that would have had on him. Thinking of the XT Deconstructor here, when we destroyed that thing's heart it went completely bughouse and got a drastic increase in strength. Being that XT was created by an entity that was itself created by a Titan, this might be an insight into exactly what function the "heart" of a Titanic construct, or even a Titan itself, is supposed to fulfill.

This seems like a possible explanation, yes.

We might also be there to help him but I find that somewhat unlikely since he's being set up as a boss.

[Xiphan]

So then, doesn't this kind of beg the question of "what's the point of this being heroic only?"

Let's look at facts:
1) Lei Shin roflstomped this Titanic creation and tore out his heart, while he was a lowly Mogu
2) Lei Shin ate/consumed/merged with or whatever the heart/core/power of this creation to become MORE powerful
3) This would (assumedly) further weaken the creation
4) We just defeated the empowered, rezzed Thunder King

So, how would the weakened version of an adversary that, when at full strength, was defeated by a watered down version of the boss we just killed provide any challenge?

Well, Yogg-Saron was likely more powerful than Algalon and Cho'gall was probably a pretty good match for Sinestra; The order of the bosses doesn't necessarily dictate their power. A Heroic exclusive boss just provides an interesting story hook and extra fight (with extra loot) for raiders that manage to take down the tier's heroic end boss.

Also, we will have just fought the guy who imprisoned a Keeper and 12 of his other cronies and constructs on the way to his throne. The Adventurer's won't exactly be at peak efficiency and stamina by the time they stumble upon Ra-Den.
Lei Shen gained a great deal of his power by stealing it from Ra-Den, so perhaps upon killing the Thunder King that power might find its way back to its original owner - but he doesn't need to be stronger than Lei Shen to still pose a threat to us.

[ThePlanckEnergy]

The most implausible aspect is that a lone, "normal" Mogu could have so handily defeated a Titan Watcher. There has to be more to it than that.

[Dravelar]

The most implausible aspect is that a lone, "normal" Mogu could have so handily defeated a Titan Watcher. There has to be more to it than that.

I honestly doubt that it was a ''fair'' 1v1 fight between Lei Shen and Ra-Den

[Drilnos]

The most implausible aspect is that a lone, "normal" Mogu could have so handily defeated a Titan Watcher. There has to be more to it than that.

That's assuming he went in there, smacked Ra-den across the face with a glove and said "let's you and me fight." What I think is somewhat more likely is that he pretended to still be a servant, got in close and blitzed him before he knew what was happening. This is also Lei Shen we're talking about here. Even the lowest Mogu goons are supposed to be monstrously tough, and this guy was not a goon.

[nnelson54]

So, how would the weakened version of an adversary that, when at full strength, was defeated by a watered down version of the boss we just killed provide any challenge?

You're making a common fallacy when dealing with WoW raid bosses. In game fight difficulty and level has no correlation with actual character strength in lore. I mean, we fought(albeit we didn't kill) Kil'jaeden and then three tiers later we fought the Faction Champions in TotC. By your logic Kil'jaeden - one of the most powerful known beings in the entire Universe - is weaker than five random NPCs who most people couldn't name because they were nobodies and randomly created for the fight. There's no reason that a heroic only boss fight has to be stronger - lore wise, not gameplay wise - than a boss we get to fight on normal mode.

Also, there's no indication of what the fight will be like. We could be freeing him, seeing as we apparently fight him in the Thunder King's prison. And I doubt the original fight was as simple as Lei Shin walking in and kicking him in balls and ripping his heart out. I highly doubt Lei Shin defeated him one on one or at least without some trickery. As we learned in Ulduar, Watchers aren't above being tricked.

There's not even any reason to believe he'll still be weakened by the time we get to him. For all we know there's a cut scene on heroic after you kill Lei Shin that restores the power that was stolen from him. Hell, we may be fighting a weakened Lei Shin - since he was just resurrected - and a fully powered Ra-Den - since Lei Shin is dead at that point and his powers restored - instead of the other way around.

There's a lot of jumps in logic in this thread when we know absolutely nothing about the fight or the situation surrounding it.

[Nairobi]

Well, Yogg-Saron was likely more powerful than Algalon and Cho'gall was probably a pretty good match for Sinestra; The order of the bosses doesn't necessarily dictate their power. A Heroic exclusive boss just provides an interesting story hook and extra fight (with extra loot) for raiders that manage to take down the tier's heroic end boss.

Also, we will have just fought the guy who imprisoned a Keeper and 12 of his other cronies and constructs on the way to his throne. The Adventurer's won't exactly be at peak efficiency and stamina by the time they stumble upon Ra-Den.
Lei Shen gained a great deal of his power by stealing it from Ra-Den, so perhaps upon killing the Thunder King that power might find its way back to its original owner - but he doesn't need to be stronger than Lei Shen to still pose a threat to us.

While I agree that order doesn't always dictate power, I will nitpick that Cho'gall had no beef with Sinestra, and that they were basically on the "same side" as much as one can be with regards to Old Gods. I agree that Sinestra's mere existance in the BoT kind of took away from ChoGalls prestige as a "big baddy" that he SHOULD have been, but with regards to power it was more of a story boss than anything. Same with Algalon and Yogg, as Algalon was more of a gatekeeper who was capable of and planning to (with assistance) reset Azeroth. Certainly that power or capability rivals Yogg's, albeit through different mechanisms, no? And Yogg was established to be injured and whatnot, as Blizz seems to always retcon Old Gods to never be "at full strength".

I think it's likely there will be some "power transfer", but I still do/will find that cheesy and a cop-out if implemented. I mean, we beat Lei Shin's ass because Random_Watcher_002 can't, but then he sucks the power from him and now is pissed at us for helping? I dunno, have to see how it unfolds.

You're making a common fallacy when dealing with WoW raid bosses. In game fight difficulty and level has no correlation with actual character strength in lore. I mean, we fought(albeit we didn't kill) Kil'jaeden and then three tiers later we fought the Faction Champions in TotC. By your logic Kil'jaeden - one of the most powerful known beings in the entire Universe - is weaker than five random NPCs who most people couldn't name because they were nobodies and randomly created for the fight. There's no reason that a heroic only boss fight has to be stronger - lore wise, not gameplay wise - than a boss we get to fight on normal mode.

Also, there's no indication of what the fight will be like. We could be freeing him, seeing as we apparently fight him in the Thunder King's prison. And I doubt the original fight was as simple as Lei Shin walking in and kicking him in balls and ripping his heart out. I highly doubt Lei Shin defeated him one on one or at least without some trickery. As we learned in Ulduar, Watchers aren't above being tricked.

There's not even any reason to believe he'll still be weakened by the time we get to him. For all we know there's a cut scene on heroic after you kill Lei Shin that restores the power that was stolen from him. Hell, we may be fighting a weakened Lei Shin - since he was just resurrected - and a fully powered Ra-Den - since Lei Shin is dead at that point and his powers restored - instead of the other way around.

There's a lot of jumps in logic in this thread when we know absolutely nothing about the fight or the situation surrounding it.

Again, just a nitpick, but wasn't it not even the real KJ? I mean, he was stuck in the floor, and it was more or less an "avatar", no? I could be totally off, as I don't really follow all this, but IMO if that is correct, we're still seeing a relatively logical progression of power throughout the expansion. I know that there may be debatable gaps or inconsistencies in the lore-power, but lets see:
Rag 1.0 -> Nef 1.0 -> C'thun -> KT 1.0 -> Kael/Vashj -> Illidan -> KJ avatar -> KT 2.0 -> Yogg -> Anub -> Arthas -> Nef 2.0/ChoGall/AlAkir -> Rag 2.0 -> DW -> MoP

Sure, the underlings along the way can be construed and argued about, but taking your faction champs example, aren't they just supposed to be the opposite faction of ourselves? I mean, at this point, the player-hero's in WoW are no joke in terms of power. And following the above timeline, most of the lore canon seems to hold true (Illidan < LK < DW for example), and if not, it was retconned or footnoted that the boss was either weakened, avatar'ed, or a version 1.0 that came back stronger later.

But, as you said, a lot of it is raelly up in the air. Still, I'm hoping for a really good explanation of the encounter...

Edit: One that I just thought of as a glaring inconsistency would be Gruul. Didn't he wipe the floor with the black dragonflight, Neltharion included? Although, I guess Blizz can claim "Old God infused power" made the DW we fought a markedly increased version of the one that lost in Outlands. Just food for thought/discussion.

[Dravelar]

Again, just a nitpick, but wasn't it not even the real KJ? I mean, he was stuck in the floor, and it was more or less an "avatar", no? I could be totally off, as I don't really follow all this, but IMO if that is correct, we're still seeing a relatively logical progression of power throughout the expansion. I know that there may be debatable gaps or inconsistencies in the lore-power, but lets see:
Rag 1.0 -> Nef 1.0 -> C'thun -> KT 1.0 -> Kael/Vashj -> Illidan -> KJ avatar -> KT 2.0 -> Yogg -> Anub -> Arthas -> Nef 2.0/ChoGall/AlAkir -> Rag 2.0 -> DW -> MoP

This is not really true,C'thun is stronger than most people after him on the list,and the Kil'jaeden that we ''defeated'' was the real one

[Deleted]

This is not really true,C'thun is stronger than most people after him on the list,and the Kil'jaeden that we ''defeated'' was the real one

No he isn't.

[Nairobi]

This is not really true,C'thun is stronger than most people after him on the list,and the Kil'jaeden that we ''defeated'' was the real one

My mistake then. I thought that it was always said/noted that the Old God's we've fought thus far were greatly weakened/not prepared for the battle, and as such, were defeatable by us at that level/time. I recall some people sourcing Blizz saying that Old Gods are more or less equal to Titans, which would mean the ones we fought HAD to be weakened or handicapped.

Same thing with the whole "Burning Legion uses a lot of their power to come thru portals" schtick that they've talked about, which allowed Aegwynn to drive back Sargeras' avatar and explained why 1) KJ was stuck in the floor and 2) why he was defeated. Seems they should really look into better portal-summoning-management abilities prior to their real assault on Azeroth :P

[Deleted]

Reskins, reskins and more reskins. Same shit given a new cover and sold to us as new. That's what 10m+ subs get you.

[Golden Yak]

Edit: One that I just thought of as a glaring inconsistency would be Gruul. Didn't he wipe the floor with the black dragonflight, Neltharion included?

No, he was getting his ass kicked by Deathwing. He'd taken out every other dragon sent up against him though. The gronn are described as 'demigods,' so I put Gruul at Cenarius' level power - at or about the same level as the animal demigods of Azeroth, but beneath dragon aspect power.

And Kil'jaeden at the Sunwell was really him. You could argue that he hadn't come completely through the portal, but I don't see how that would affect his power. Maybe he was sucked back through before he could bring his full strength to bear. I'd still put him below Old God level.

That's what 10m+ subs get you.

Well, it's not like the subscribers are working on it.

[Realsykes]

This is not really true,C'thun is stronger than most people after him on the list,and the Kil'jaeden that we ''defeated'' was the real one

Pretty sure he was an avatar.

[Yig]

Reskins, reskins and more reskins. Same shit given a new cover and sold to us as new. That's what 10m+ subs get you.

New models using the same skeleton are not reskins. That's what not knowing wtf you're talking about "get you".