State of Mages [5.2]

[DeLos]

Poor mobility is actually something that is good that should be the defining factor of the caster class. If casters had good mobility it would just cause a lot of problems.

Mobility was always the mage go to. Mages avoided damage. Still today we carry the negatives of that. Lowest armor and midigation and lack of self heals. Look at the other casters. Moonkin have significant self (and other person heals). Priest have strong shields plus strong heals. Locks have a ton of self healing. All three have more armor and stronger damage reduction options. Blizz even described locks as the caster 'tank', designed to midigate damage and heal it back. The nature of a mage was always to avoid the damage, and being able to deliver mobile damage is key to that, especially in today's raids and most especially in PvP. As it stands, we lose damage twice with mobility. Once from just weaker spells. And then again from talents that seem designed to lock us in place. When other casters have stronger defensive abilities, stronger healing, and more mobile damage, it is indeed a problem. If you want a caster to stand put, they should have the tools to do it. Extra armor, self healing, etc. We don't. And a caster should be staying put to cast spells. Not because they have to root themselves in a little circle or channel a spell for a buff.

AoE is dependant on the spec and I think it's balanced quite well because of that.

Why does utility matter? People bring mages to raids for their dps and thats how it should be. I enjoy being a glass cannon and nothing else.

In today's environment you have to look at what extras as class brings to the raid. It is a legitimate consideration. I personally don't think our utility is OMG horrible. We do have some. Could use a few nice tools, as we do lack when compared to other classes. I think this is a case of most people would not care that much, but when stacked with the other issues it feels more significant.

People keep complaining about the level 90 talents but there's actually nothing wrong with invocation. IW could use some small changes and RoP needs some big changes because it's just too restrictive.

Here is the problems with out level 90 talents.
First, every other class gets talents that add to their game play. They get new options. Not all the talents are useful all the time. But they all have places where they shine. They all add options. Our level 90 talents restrict our game play. Our talents subtract options. We do have a choice in what to lose. Take a talent that will cost dps or take a talent that will limit movement. Take A penalty or take B penalty. But it is still a lose of flexibility when talents should give us a gain of options. A level 89 mage has more choices then a level 90 mage in how they play. That is a bad design.

Second, nominally mana talents are not really mana talents. They are all about the buff. We don't evocate for mana anymore, we evocate for the buff. Evocate prior to MoP has always been about mana. I remember having to evocate mana back in fights. You watched your bar, when it started getting low you planned ahead and used the best time to evocate. When you needed to use it depended on what your where doing, demands of the encounter, etc. You actually used to manage mana. Now, you evocate every X seconds to maintain a buff, and well mana comes with it. Or you stand in a little ring (basically rooted), and ignore mana.

[alucardtnuoc]

Not trying to be an elitist prick here, but you have 0 MoP raiding experience as your Mage (LFR doesn't count).

Our QoLs are a bit different when you're not pushed to be good to get through content.

Again, not trying to be an asshole, just saying you've only done LFR.

If you really need to know my list (and this is purely from a non-LFR PvE perspective):

- L90 talents are just annoying as hell. IW is okay, but taking it = doing non-competitive DPS.
- Mana tied to L90 talents and Arcane, causing not only issues with Arcane's Mastery, but forcing Fire and Frost to have to deal with mana when choosing Invocation (not as bad this patch, but in 5.2, it will be MUCH worse if things don't change). In addition, the L90 talents are balanced purely around Arcane (the mana bullshit is proof of this)
- No raid utility besides Time Warp (Whee... something every raid has anyways)
- Worst self-healing in the game and no passive/active damage reduction spells/talents. All casters take less damage from sources. The best Mages get is using Molten Armor to negate 6% Physical damage (16% if you waste a Major glyph)
- Piss poor mobility (in terms of straight up moving as well as damaging on the go)
- Boring gameplay/rotation; all speccs are the same (Keep bomb up, spam primary nuke, press AM/Pyro/IL&FFB when they light up)
- Boring + Shit talents; there are little to no choices, something MoP was supposed to fix. (Scorch, Ice Barrier, Cauterize, and Invo for Fire/Frost or RoP for Arcane. We have a cookie cutter build. Our only choice is our useless PvP talent [useless for raiding] and our Bomb choice)
- Awful large-scale AoE, especially as Fire and Arcane (Frost is okay, but relies on Orb, a spell already used in our rotation for ST as well)
- Fire does awful DPS. Frost does mediocre dps. Arcane would also be mediocre if it wasn't for Scorch-weaving (which is being nerfed in 5.2)
- No unique-ness besides portals and food conjuring (way too much homogenization for other classes that make Mages just feel bland and non-unique. We have completely lost our flavor)
- (Not really a QoL problem, but it's causing issues) No dev has a clue on how to fix Mages, so they continue with this awful road they've paved for us. All the devs being completely oblivious via Twitter and blue posts is proof of this.

Just to name a few. If you want, I can get into everything else.

Also, I wasn't necessarily saying there is a dev for each class; I DO know there are ones that are closer tied to other classes, such as that Warlock dev that got fired for leaking a tiny bit of info in Cataclysm. I just meant that no dev really focuses on Mages/none of them play a Mage. If they did, they'd see all the issues we have right now because I've yet to find an actual serious raiding Mage that finds their gameplay fun. I have found plenty of happy other casters though, specifically, all of them, though some could use with a DPS increase (and Boomkins could use some love with their issues, too).

-L90 talents are fine, the only annoying bit is if you start to channel evocation for invocation and you have to move due to a mechanic. Not really a problem if you know the fights you're doing though, as almost every mechanic is predictable. I do agree, IW could use a buff to how much damage it can absorb, bump it up a bit and take it off the GCD.

-Mana tied to talents i can agree is a problem for arcane, but it's not an issue for frost or fire. I do get low mana warnings but if i want to stop that i can just use a mana gem.

-No raid utility? I hear being able to blink out of unseen strike, or using greater invis as a dispersion on heroic will of the emperor to soak sparks is useless.

- Worst self healing? Meh, i didn't sign up to be a healer, if i want to avoid damage i'll use temporal shield when needed, or spec into ice barrier for fights like heroic empress before the first dissonance explodes for an extra bit of survivability.

- Scorch is available to use while moving, while it won't let you do 100% of your normal damage, you can still be active and dealing high amounts of damage as it both can prob FoF for frost and Pyroblast for fire.

- Press x when y lights up... isn't every class like that now, frost dks press what ever they need to for their KM procs, hunters use LoL, shammys use lava burst etc etc.

-Little to no choices for talents, then please tell me why i keep swapping between them for different heroic fights, it may be because you're not actually progressing through many heroics and feel since the few you have seen show that mages lack (which is funny) you're complaining.

- Aoe is lacking when orb is on CD, but that's why you save it for when you know you need it, like on heroic fengs shield phase.

- Frost does good dps when played right, arcane is at the top atm. I haven't touched fire as i don't favor heavy RNG swings.

- Oh for the love of freezing adds in place, mass aoe slows and keeping things in check, glad i am useless.

From you're armory you don't actually have that much raiding experience into heroics, 4/6 in MSV and 1/6 in HoF. All the things people are complaining about, some i can agree with, but not to the extent everyone is complaining about.

[Tehstool]

-L90 talents are fine, the only annoying bit is if you start to channel evocation for invocation and you have to move due to a mechanic. Not really a problem if you know the fights you're doing though, as almost every mechanic is predictable. I do agree, IW could use a buff to how much damage it can absorb, bump it up a bit and take it off the GCD.

-Mana tied to talents i can agree is a problem for arcane, but it's not an issue for frost or fire. I do get low mana warnings but if i want to stop that i can just use a mana gem.

-No raid utility? I hear being able to blink out of unseen strike, or using greater invis as a dispersion on heroic will of the emperor to soak sparks is useless.

- Worst self healing? Meh, i didn't sign up to be a healer, if i want to avoid damage i'll use temporal shield when needed, or spec into ice barrier for fights like heroic empress before the first dissonance explodes for an extra bit of survivability.

- Scorch is available to use while moving, while it won't let you do 100% of your normal damage, you can still be active and dealing high amounts of damage as it both can prob FoF for frost and Pyroblast for fire.

- Press x when y lights up... isn't every class like that now, frost dks press what ever they need to for their KM procs, hunters use LoL, shammys use lava burst etc etc.

-Little to no choices for talents, then please tell me why i keep swapping between them for different heroic fights, it may be because you're not actually progressing through many heroics and feel since the few you have seen show that mages lack (which is funny) you're complaining.

- Aoe is lacking when orb is on CD, but that's why you save it for when you know you need it, like on heroic fengs shield phase.

- Frost does good dps when played right, arcane is at the top atm. I haven't touched fire as i don't favor heavy RNG swings.

- Oh for the love of freezing adds in place, mass aoe slows and keeping things in check, glad i am useless.

From you're armory you don't actually have that much raiding experience into heroics, 4/6 in MSV and 1/6 in HoF. All the things people are complaining about, some i can agree with, but not to the extent everyone is complaining about.

Also to add onto this: 1% of healing per second (Rune of Power) is as good as a hunter's spirit bond which is 2% every 2 seconds. So not the worst, but not the best.

[Imnick]

Yeah I still don't have any problems at all with the 90 talents past "they're tied to Arcane's mana" and some slight number tweaking (but not a lot of number tweaking! They are pretty fine where they are!)

And I do have raiding experience this tier outside LFR. One boss more than Dragon4801023 if I'm reading his Armoury right.

Mages are the best spark soakers for Will that exist, because of Blink. They bring the best single raid buff and best single raid cooldown. They have powerful DPS that has never since TBC been so low as to make them question the validity of their raid spots and still won't be in 5.2.

Arcane has issues with movement but the other two specs can handle fights as intensive as Garalon without terrible issue (though the scorch mana nerf is going to hurt this a bit).

I play all three specs in current content regularly and don't find them to be too identical. They feel dramatically different from each other, actually. Playstyle feeling involves a whole lot more than "number of buttons".

Arcane needs its talent interaction checked and numbers need to go up and down in a couple of places but that's it! We're a strong class and will remain a strong class until the end of Mists of Pandaria.
Issues like dated graphical design and uninteresting, shared AOE rotations are annoying but not deadly to the class and are unlikely to be addressed until the next expansion cycle as much as I would like them to. Some more choice of minor glyphs would also be nice, but these are all little more than minor complaints.

[SodiumChloride]

They thought Blazing Speed was too strong?! LOL. Are you kidding me? Then why was Ice Barrier nerfed and why does no one still pick Blazing Speed??? Why did no one pick the previous build's Blazing Speed? Why will no one pick this Blazing Speed? One answer: BLAZING. SPEED. SUCKS.

GC was referring to an internal build of Blazing Speed that never made it to public PTR.

Blazing Speed on live was too weak and unpopular. But they felt the first internal build of Blazing Speed was too strong. What we see on PTR is the 2nd build, which GC think might be too weak. They will tweak it more.

[Elegiac]

mages on single target are fine, they are top on the list tied with warlocks.... even after that nerf.. dont know why people keeps complaining and saying mages the worst single target class try a shadowpriest or a ele shaman.......

Damage is a mask of real issues.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:03 AM ----------

Also to add onto this: 1% of healing per second (Rune of Power) is as good as a hunter's spirit bond which is 2% every 2 seconds. So not the worst, but not the best.

Hunters don't have to stand still to gain it.

[Tehstool]

Damage is a mask of real issues.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:03 AM ----------



Hunters don't have to stand still to gain it.

That isn't the point. The self heals are still the same.

[Elegiac]

-L90 talents are fine, the only annoying bit is if you start to channel evocation for invocation and you have to move due to a mechanic. Not really a problem if you know the fights you're doing though, as almost every mechanic is predictable. I do agree, IW could use a buff to how much damage it can absorb, bump it up a bit and take it off the GCD.

They're not fine. They are clunky, difficult to use, and provide no real benefit. They are essentially stupider versions of Inquisition. Most other classes have an ultimate tier of very fun abilities that provide tangible benefits in a variety of ways (Priest and Paladin Tier 6, for instance).

Mana tied to talents i can agree is a problem for arcane, but it's not an issue for frost or fire. I do get low mana warnings but if i want to stop that i can just use a mana gem.

The fact that mana is not an issue for Frost or Fire is the reason why the Level 90 talents being tied to mana is such a farce.

No raid utility? I hear being able to blink out of unseen strike, or using greater invis as a dispersion on heroic will of the emperor to soak sparks is useless.

Situational conveniences. Outside of Time Warp, we offer nothing save the overpresent critical strike, a spellpower buff, and oh yes, vending machine crap.

Scorch is available to use while moving, while it won't let you do 100% of your normal damage, you can still be active and dealing high amounts of damage as it both can prob FoF for frost and Pyroblast for fire.

Compared to practically every other ranged class which has far more sustainable mobile damage. Scorch is the only spell that is used specifically for moving, it has no use outside of it. Movement increasers need to be either cooldowns or worked into the rotation.

- Press x when y lights up... isn't every class like that now, frost dks press what ever they need to for their KM procs, hunters use LoL, shammys use lava burst etc etc.

Every other spec in the game has concievably more rotational variation than Mages do between specs.

- Aoe is lacking when orb is on CD, but that's why you save it for when you know you need it, like on heroic fengs shield phase.

Not everyone plays Frost.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:13 AM ----------

That isn't the point. The self heals are still the same.

That is in fact, the point. The numbers are nowhere near the same since Spirit Bond is a passive buff that exists as long as your pet is out (100%) of the time, compared to Rune of Power which is only active when you stand in it. Which in a PvE situation is less than 90% of the time, and in PvP much never since nobody with a brain takes anything but Incanter's Ward.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:14 AM ----------

GC was referring to an internal build of Blazing Speed that never made it to public PTR.

Blazing Speed on live was too weak and unpopular. But they felt the first internal build of Blazing Speed was too strong. What we see on PTR is the 2nd build, which GC think might be too weak. They will tweak it more.

Unless said tweaking involves removing it or moving it to the first tier, nothing is going to work.

[Tehstool]

That is in fact, the point. The numbers are nowhere near the same since Spirit Bond is a passive buff that exists as long as your pet is out (100%) of the time, compared to Rune of Power which is only active when you stand in it. Which in a PvE situation is less than 90% of the time, and in PvP much never since nobody with a brain takes anything but Incanter's Ward.

You are missing the point. Their self heals are the same % wise is what I'm getting at. You are also forgetting ice barrier which if used on CD it's about a 20% absorption shield ergo 20% heals every 25 seconds. Which is about a .8% heal a second, which is effectively better than spirit bond even with only an 80% uptime on RoP.

[Elegiac]

You are missing the point. Their self heals are the same % wise is what I'm getting at. You are also forgetting ice barrier which if used on CD it's about a 20% absorption shield ergo 20% heals every 25 seconds. Which is about a .8% heal a second, which is effectively better than spirit bond even with only an 80% uptime on RoP.

The tooltips equate to the same, but numerically no, Spirit Bond is better than Rune of Power simply because of uptime.

Absorption is not healing. Never mind the fact that Ice Barrier has its own set of issues.

[Tehstool]

The tooltips equate to the same, but numerically no, Spirit Bond is better than Rune of Power simply because of uptime.

Absorption is not healing. Never mind the fact that Ice Barrier has its own set of issues.

You are still mitigating damage either way. I don't see a reason not to count it.

[Elegiac]

You are still mitigating damage either way. I don't see a reason not to count it.

The fact hybrid healing is so good sullies the matter. I'd personally love to lock hybrid dps out of their healing abilities.

[Tehstool]

The fact hybrid healing is so good sullies the matter. I'd personally love to lock hybrid dps out of their healing abilities.

Bringing up a totally unrelated thing to our discussion? I see what's happening, you are avoiding my points. Well, if you don't want to talk to me you don't have to reply

[Elegiac]

Bringing up a totally unrelated thing to our discussion? I see what's happening, you are avoiding my points. Well, if you don't want to talk to me you don't have to reply

Avoiding your points? The entire reason healing was brought up as an issue is because the other classes have set a benchmark which Mages do not meet. Ergo, the solution is either to bring us up, or bring the benchmark down.

[Tehstool]

Avoiding your points? The entire reason healing was brought up as an issue is because the other classes have set a benchmark which Mages do not meet. Ergo, the solution is either to bring us up, or bring the benchmark down.

You are avoiding my posts again. Mages have the same healing/absorbs as hunters with only a 20% up time on RoP which doesn't happen in pve.

After I said that you brought up hybrid healing which was completely unrelated to the discussion we were having about mages and hunters.

[Elegiac]

You are avoiding my posts again. Mages have the same healing/absorbs as hunters with only a 20% up time on RoP which doesn't happen in pve.

After I said that you brought up hybrid healing which was completely unrelated to the discussion we were having about mages and hunters.

You're comparing two healing talents by saying that because Mages have another talent, it makes their crappy healing talent (actually a glyph) better. Right. And ignoring the fact that RoP is only taken by idiots in PvP, as well.

Hunters aren't the prime comparison for what level of self healing is acceptable.

[Tehstool]

You're comparing two healing talents by saying that because Mages have another talent, it makes their crappy healing talent (actually a glyph) better. Right. And ignoring the fact that RoP is only taken by idiots in PvP, as well.

Hunters aren't the prime comparison for what level of self healing is acceptable.

Incanter's ward absorbs for about 20k on a 460 mage with only arcane brilliance is up. Which is about 6% every 25 seconds. Which equates to .24% a second. that + the .8% a second from ice barrier is 1.04% a second which is .04% higher than a hunters spirit bond.

So the crappy talent/glyph is out of the picture but you are still getting virtually the same healing.


I also think you are forgetting what I replied to:

- Worst self-healing in the game and no passive/active damage reduction spells/talents. All casters take less damage from sources. The best Mages get is using

So if you are actively mitigating more than hunters, how would that make mages have the worst self healing in the game?

If you are going to say an absorb isn't a heal, which isn't my point, then disc priests must be really shitty healers in your eyes.

[Sw1tch]

I do believe I'm on the fence with regard to the two extremities going on right now; however, I don't see how anyone can think RoP is fine as is. It needs to be instant cast and last either indefinitely or much longer. The only spec using it is Arcane, and that will probably change in 5.2

[Deleted]

You are missing the point. Their self heals are the same % wise is what I'm getting at. You are also forgetting ice barrier which if used on CD it's about a 20% absorption shield ergo 20% heals every 25 seconds. Which is about a .8% heal a second, which is effectively better than spirit bond even with only an 80% uptime on RoP.

so you are comparing 2 mage talents + 1 glyph vs 1 hunter talent (ignoring the GCD cost of icebarrier).. While ignoring the inherent damage absorption that comes from being able to dps on the move.. Or are you going to try and claim that a rooted dps class takes the same damage as a ranged class that can dps on the move?

[Kamel]

Terrible changes.
I don't want reroll but's it's disgusting what they're doing with mages, specially Arcane Scorch-Weaving.

I don't know how a Pure DPS Spec is "OP" when this class is doing the only thing we can do. DPS!