State of Mages [5.2]

[DeLos]

so you are comparing 2 mage talents + 1 glyph vs 1 hunter talent (ignoring the GCD cost of icebarrier).. While ignoring the inherent damage absorption that comes from being able to dps on the move.. Or are you going to try and claim that a rooted dps class takes the same damage as a ranged class that can dps on the move?

Thank you. Though you forgot to mention he is comparing a mages entire midigation and healing kit to one hunter talent. He forgets they can get a pet with heals, . Another major issue is armor. A lot of raids fire physical damage. PvP certainly entails a lot. Mail provides significantly more reduction then cloth. If you glyph and use molten armor, you can get almost as much midigation as they have default.

So, if we go for maximum healing: We root ourselves, use two glyphs and two talents to get almost as much as hunters get from 1 talents and 1 pet choice while being able to do full damage while moving.

And every other range class has more damage on the move and more midigation and healing.

[mrgreenthump]

Tehstool might I ask you.. Why are you posting on mage forums? As you clearly don't have a mage, or understand the point of this topic/the issues mages are facing atm..

[Deleted]

Could you guys possibly be echochambering even harder? Good lord.

You arent even reading the comments correctly. "Blazing speed op" -- you do realize he was referring to the previous PTR build rather than live?

[mrgreenthump]

Could you guys possibly be echochambering even harder? Good lord.

You arent even reading the comments correctly. "Blazing speed op" -- you do realize he was referring to the previous PTR build rather than live?

If i remember right it was every 25 secs without the req to get damaged.. which is like allmost the same as live atm, just that on live you can get pwned by rng and not get damaged when its needed, And it is/was in no way OP in PvE..

[Relapses]

So let me get this straight:

Mages aren't upset about doing great damage, or even siming much, much higher than every single class in this game; rather that their quality of life is so poor, despite being in a much better position than most classes, they'd rather reroll than have to tolerate issues to which they perceive Blizzard is oblivious. And this is a much worse position to be in, of course, than a class who, even if played to its absolute maximum potential, cannot hold a candle to a Mage at the same gear level played poorly.

[Austilias]

So let me get this straight:

Mages aren't upset about doing great damage, or even siming much, much higher than every single class in this game; rather that their quality of life is so poor, despite being in a much better position than most classes, they'd rather reroll than have to tolerate issues to which they perceive Blizzard is oblivious. And this is a much worse position to be in, of course, than a class who, even if played to its absolute maximum potential, cannot hold a candle to a Mage at the same gear level played poorly.

Must say I agree. Mages for all the complaints, are a class that's gotten off lightly in every patch both prior to and following Sunwell.

[mrgreenthump]

I don't really know if people are trolling intentionally or if they are a bit light on the brain department. But would like to point out that this thread has nothing to do with Sims, or how redic arcane is atm on single target..

[Deleted]

how redic arcane is atm on single target..

It's supposed to be, since it isn't any good at anything else, like movement, AOE etc.
If Fire were to do the same dps singletarget then either Fire needs a nerf or Arcane a buff.

[Deleted]

Must say I agree. Mages for all the complaints, are a class that's gotten off lightly in every patch both prior to and following Sunwell.

The big Fire nerf after 5.1 was getting off light? It put the specc from top dps (OP? maybe, not disputing that) to lower end of the pack, on logs, not sims, so actual combat data.

That aside - playing the class should be fun. Extreme counter-example - a class that does the most damage by far but only has 1 ability. Great damage/performance? Yes. Fun? Probably not.
I'm doing well on my mage on Arcane right now. Not as good as I could, ways behind our warlock, but usually ok (I *suck* at Garalon though, in either spec, don't know what's with that fight. I'm also on the pheromones rotation though, that plus mages' poor movement damage explains part of it at least). So that's not the biggest problem.
But it's just not as fun as it used to be, not a lot of fun overall, and goddamn frustrating when compared to Warlocks especially. And Hunters. On the movement aspect that is. Imo/afaik mages were never as bad as movement-combat as they are right now.
Fire, our most movement-compatible spec, has been nerfed to hell, not a terribly viable spec for most mages (I could get to 28% crit buffed max, not enough after the CM nerf). Frost, similarly ok in terms of movement, also under-performing. So we're stuck with one spec, Arcane, which frankly sucks at movement, because of the default talent RoP. So on the one hand mages are stuck standing in their damn runes, while warlocks and hunters can do whatever the hell they want while moving. We've had fights where our hunter and warlock ran and jumped around the whole damn fight. Just because they could.

So at least for me, and reading this thread for many others as well, movement is one of the biggest problems right now. Sucking at movement? Ok, if all ranged classes suck equally at it, if it's an integral part/disadvantage of being a ranged class. But having some classes just so much on the other end of the spectrum is ridiculous.

So that's movement. And for damage/raid performance in general.

The other thing is class identity, flavor, fun-factor, artistic direction - very subjective, so some may agree, some may not.
With the homogenization going on mages have lost lots of their special flavor (I don't even use portals barely anymore, after the raid everyone uses their 15min-cd hearthstone to the pandaria capital and can go anywhere they want from there, or just logs off for the night anyway).
Warlocks had a complete do-over in Cataclysm that gave them lots of flavor in terms of gameplay, different resource systems, vastly different gameplay, but still class-specific elements (dots, demons, ...), ...
Mages could use a similar do-over imo. Yes, the specs are also vastly different, but not necessarily entertaining. I don't think there are many people who just love Fire's RNG dependence. Arcane's mana management aspect is unique, yes, but fun...? Especially seeing how Blizzard reacts to people finding legitimate, different ways to play, that is crush them.
Blizz don't seem to a clear idea what the mage is about anymore, what's unique for mages, what's their theme. That's the most obvious when it comes to gear. Mage gear just doesn't look anything special, it doesn't have a clear theme. Just look at the coming Tier 15 and Season 13 sets. You have a strong Mantid or Mogue theme on the Warlock stuff. Again strong Nature-theme, although corrupted, on the Druid stuff. Mage ... what's it about? What's the strong theme defining the gear? What does it say about us?

Personally I think that's been a problem for a while, most Mage-sets were rather weak in this aspect.
Tier 8 had the Kirin Tor theme, a bit of a battle-mage flavor, I liked it.
Tier 11 had a strong Ragnaros theme, which was nice, but a) one tier too soon, b) Ragnaros, the Fire-Lord could be just as if not more interesting to Shamans, that whole Elemental Planes business.
Tier 7 - Crystals. Crystals everywhere. Why crystals? Again with Season 12 gear, Crystals. Challenge Mod set, Crystals (although they were particularly unimaginative with that set, wizard had, check, color of every spec, check, done)
Tier 6 - what the hell was that about?
Tier 12 - Firehawk, ok, not necessarily mage-specific but Fire-related, somewhat ok.
Tier 14 - what the hell?
Tier 10 - Bloodmage, loved it, except the ridiculous cap. BUT, with its focus on an enemy-type, bosses, it actually should have been a warlock set. The Tier 10 warlock was very generic and boring in comparison. That was weird.
Tier 13 - Timelord, ok, time-aspect, good theme but mages had exactly 1 time-related spell at that time and it was just a copy of a shaman spell.
Tier 4 - looks nice, but very, very bland.

I am NOT saying that mages are alone in this problem. A few awesome sets aside Priests have the same problem imho, a rather weak, class-specific theme. Rogues have a strong theme but Blizzard rarely uses it, all those glowy things on Rogue stuff, what the?

Some classes, in their current state, in terms of lore, ingame-stuff etc. have stronger themes than others and lend themselves to a more unique, specific experience, in various aspects, be that unique gear, spells, gameplay, ...
Mages suffer in that regard imo, their theme is rather weak, very generic.
Priests as well (Tier 11, worst set ever?).
Warriors also have a very generic theme (could you get more generic, bland than warrior/fighter?) but they use it well in terms of gear (can't tell about gameplay, haven't played a warrior for a long time and then not very actively).
Warlocks have a very strong theme, based around corruption, fel energy, demons, curses etc. They can always do something related to the current big bads etc.
Paladin - somewhat strong theme but they use it somewhat badly sometimes. The holy warrior, book in hand etc. is a cool thing but e.g. what's up with Season 13 paladin set? Looks like a warrior.
Hunter - rather strong theme, beasts, beasts everywhere, just not my thing personally.

And so on, just a few examples what I'm talking about.

[Fountaiin]

It's supposed to be, since it isn't any good at anything else, like movement, AOE etc.
If Fire were to do the same dps singletarget then either Fire needs a nerf or Arcane a buff.

Arcane does very strong aoe with nether tempest too.

[Rickdiculous]

Arcane does very strong aoe with nether tempest too.

Arcane does AVERAGE dps with nether tempest. None of the mage classes have strong AoE atm. Fire was nerfed to hell (hurr durr 3 targets), to get average aoe numbers with arcane you have to have everything dotted, and then barrage stacks, and then you spend 8 seconds not AoEing getting your stacks back to 6. Frost AoE is strong every 1 minute, then you are just spamming frostbolt hoping for an ice lance. If you want strong aoe, talk to a hunter.

[Imnick]

I'm not going to bother addressing the first half of your post because we all already know that you can't assign an objective value to the fun of a spec and I'm pointed out multiple times that I am still enjoying it perfectly well, as are several other people in the topic.
I will talk to you about the second half though, because you just don't seem very knowledgeable about it? Almost all Mage tiers have a strong and appropriate theme though one_entity, you just don't seem to have been able to recognise them somehow...

Tier 1 is probably the most generic as it's just shiny robes.
Tier 2 crackles with Arcane power (odd because basically nobody would play Arcane then but ok)
Tier 3 (and 7) represent the other two non-Arcane specs.
Tier 4 seems to just look like Shattrath which I will admit is not very interesting.
Tier 5 I am very, very surprised you didn't mention in your list because it is styled after the Guardians of Tirisfal, one of the most important lore factions of mages.
Tier 6 is styled after the Arcane-gathering energy conduits that the blood elf mages use in the Netherstorm.
Tier 8 is Dalaran themed, very fitting.
Tier 10 is themed after Blood Mages so why you'd call it a Warlock set I have absolutely no idea.
Tier 11 is themed after Ragnaros which is also very fitting because he was summoned to Azeroth originally by Mages.
Tier 12 they didn't even do class themes for anyone, they just picked a random boss for each class for whatever reason.
Tier 13 is time-themed which seems to be one of the new focuses of Arcane Mages.
Tier 14 is covered in burning, spec-coloured scrolls. Because Mages are scholars? How is that not obvious to you...

Only three sets and tier nine (and one of the sets didn't have class links for any class anyway) don't have obvious ties to the mage class, the fact that you aren't versed enough in game lore to recognise them isn't Blizzard's fault.
We're also getting a big focus on Mage lore this expansion because the central council of Mages is a major player in the plot...

[Swizzle]

If i remember right it was every 25 secs without the req to get damaged.. which is like allmost the same as live atm, just that on live you can get pwned by rng and not get damaged when its needed, And it is/was in no way OP in PvE..

The last build I played with had them functioning like Nitro Boosts without a chance of death, much lower CD, and didn't force drops of flags in WSG or TP. It had potential to be quite OP in RBGs, and I did like it more than Ice Barrier on PTR (the absorb needs to be un-nerfed this coming season to keep it competitive, really, or let PvP power increase the effect), but I don't think it was that bad. Then again, their internal testing and builds might have had different results than what I had.

Anyway, keep the e-peening out of this thread, stop bashing, and stop arguing about freaking hunters or any other class. Apples and Oranges don't like it when you do it, and neither do I.

[Imnick]

Someone else called this subforum an echo chamber and frankly I'm quite inclined to agree.
Mages are not perfect but they have been in a very strong position for 99% of the lifespan of the game and currently instead of in a "very strong" position they are merely... "quite strong".
We're still one of the top DPS classes, I know for a fact that I can still enjoy playing my class (the level 90 talents add a skill dimension to what is otherwise a fairly standard rotation) and it has never seemed to me that the validity of my raid spot would ever have been in question.

We have a lot of niggling little quality of life and visual identity issues though. These aren't actually incredibly important, but because we have little else to talk about are magnified by the community until they are The Most Pressing Issue Affecting Any Class In The Game Today.
We certainly do need new graphics, more glyphs and a bit of style because our spell effects are starting to look sort of dated... but those aren't going to come in this expansion so it's a bit silly to keep demanding them.

The most important issue with Mages is that some of the talent trees are not particularly balanced but Blizzard are already working on that!

[Elegiac]

Someone else called this subforum an echo chamber and frankly I'm quite inclined to agree.
Mages are not perfect but they have been in a very strong position for 99% of the lifespan of the game and currently instead of in a "very strong" position they are merely... "quite strong".
We're still one of the top DPS classes, I know for a fact that I can still enjoy playing my class (the level 90 talents add a skill dimension to what is otherwise a fairly standard rotation) and it has never seemed to me that the validity of my raid spot would ever have been in question.

We have a lot of niggling little quality of life and visual identity issues though. These aren't actually incredibly important, but because we have little else to talk about are magnified by the community until they are The Most Pressing Issue Affecting Any Class In The Game Today.
We certainly do need new graphics, more glyphs and a bit of style because our spell effects are starting to look sort of dated... but those aren't going to come in this expansion so it's a bit silly to keep demanding them.

The most important issue with Mages is that some of the talent trees are not particularly balanced but Blizzard are already working on that!

Again, DPS is a mask of more deep-seated issues. Quality of life wise Mages are in as bad a position as locks used to be and Rogues are, lacking visual and mechanical identity for their specializations and fulfilling niche roles that have since become obsolete.

As evidenced by the repeated Invocation abortions and the current iteration of Blazing Speed, I really have no confidence in Blizzard as regards their ability to 'balance' the talent trees.

[Imnick]

Why then do you have any faith in their ability to fix any of your other tiny complaints?

[Swizzle]

Again, DPS is a mask of more deep-seated issues. Quality of life wise Mages are in as bad a position as locks used to be and Rogues are, lacking visual and mechanical identity for their specializations and fulfilling niche roles that have since become obsolete.

As evidenced by the repeated Invocation abortions and the current iteration of Blazing Speed, I really have no confidence in Blizzard as regards their ability to 'balance' the talent trees.

...according to you. Ideas take time to formulate and go through many iterations before they're complete. Would you call Newtonian Gravity an "abortion" just because the wave model came out later?

[Elegiac]

...according to you. Ideas take time to formulate and go through many iterations before they're complete. Would you call Newtonian Gravity an "abortion" just because the wave model came out later?

Abortion in the exact sense of the word, as in to abort the implementation.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 10:46 AM ----------

Why then do you have any faith in their ability to fix any of your other tiny complaints?

Nostalgia.

[Swizzle]

Abortion in the exact sense of the word, as in to abort the implementation.

Could have called it murder (killing the intent) or set up like a fag (since bundles of sticks were often used to burn things in bygone days) then. You chose the word abortion for a reason, and it wasn't to represent a change in ideas. Some of us are quite familiar with inflammatory rhetoric, though it still doesn't change that it's all based on your personal opinions.

[Deleted]

So to summarize, any complaints about QoL issues are completely irrelevant because fun is subjective. Got'cha. I will ask this, though: if Arcane is the master of time and space, then why is it that every spell with that theme is baseline (aside from Slow)? if Frost is so great at freezing stuff and blowing it up, then why is it that the other two specs do exactly just that when playing solo or in PvP? I could go on, but you get the picture.

Tier 10 is themed after Blood Mages so why you'd call it a Warlock set I have absolutely no idea.

Only three sets and tier nine (and one of the sets didn't have class links for any class anyway) don't have obvious ties to the mage class, the fact that you aren't versed enough in game lore to recognise them isn't Blizzard's fault.
We're also getting a big focus on Mage lore this expansion because the central council of Mages is a major player in the plot...

If you want to get nitpicky, tier 10 was based on the San'layn not the traditional blood elf Bloodmages. Vampiric-themed abilities aren't exactly the definition of a mage (e.g. Bloodbolt Whirl, Bloodthirst, Embrace of the Vampyr).