[5.4] Demonology Warlock Guide

[Deleted]

FINALLY got ULVS to drop from normal mode Lei Shen tonight so im respecing to Demonology. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Sohl/advanced any pointers as far as my gems / reforging goes?

You just need to hit 8097 haste, after that mastery is better.

So Hit>Haste(8097)>Mastery>Haste>Crit.
Change your gems so you hit this breakpoint. (You can keep some of them, you just need to drop 1200 haste->1200 mastery).
Change (Belt) Gems 2x 320 1x 160 haste to mastery version, Change (Boots) gems 2x 160 haste to 160 mastery.

[Zinnin]

I haven't really been around on the forums too much recently. However, I have noticed there is still a pretty large debate that doesn't seem to be anchored in real numbers around whether or not using Soul Fire in meta or caster form is better. So, since I had some free time this evening, I figured that I would try my hand at putting together a tool for people to figure out which is better for themselves with a little more ease.

This is what I came up with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...CTTdMV3c#gid=2

If you have a google account you can go to 'File -> Make a Copy' and put your own values into the Parameter fields. Doing so will give you a very clear output on what numbers you should expect from your gear.

In the Damage Gain section you will see two numbers, the top one is the damage you gain from replacing Shadow Bolt with Soul Fire (per second) and the second one is the damage you gain from replacing Touch of Chaos with Soul Fire. If the Caster Soul Fire number is higher, you should always be using Soul Fire in caster form. This will mainly be the case at low levels of haste. If both numbers are very close I would default to using Soul Fire in caster form, as you are spending fury for virtually no change in damage, effectively throwing away the damage increase of ToC over Shadow Bolt. If the damage if far higher, which happens at high haste levels (mainly during haste procs) you should always be casting Soul Fire in meta.

Tell me what you think about it, what I should consider changing and if there is anything else you think would be nice to check quickly in a format such as this.

I did not add in the crit scaling that Soul Fire gains, as I felt that it would bloat its damage over the other spells if I didn't give crit compensation to the other spells. However over the course of a fight they should all gain about the same benefit from crit (Soul Fire just guarantees benefit).

[Numidia]

I haven't really been around on the forums too much recently. However, I have noticed there is still a pretty large debate that doesn't seem to be anchored in real numbers around whether or not using Soul Fire in meta or caster form is better. So, since I had some free time this evening, I figured that I would try my hand at putting together a tool for people to figure out which is better for themselves with a little more ease.

This is what I came up with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tdjdTSHc#gid=2

If you have a google account you can go to 'File -> Make a Copy' and put your own values into the Parameter fields. Doing so will give you a very clear output on what numbers you should expect from your gear.

In the Damage Gain section you will see two numbers, the top one is the damage you gain from replacing Shadow Bolt with Soul Fire (per second) and the second one is the damage you gain from replacing Touch of Chaos with Soul Fire. If the Caster Soul Fire number is higher, you should always be using Soul Fire in caster form. This will mainly be the case at low levels of haste. If both numbers are very close I would default to using Soul Fire in caster form, as you are spending fury for virtually no change in damage, effectively throwing away the damage increase of ToC over Shadow Bolt. If the damage if far higher, which happens at high haste levels (mainly during haste procs) you should always be casting Soul Fire in meta.

Tell me what you think about it, what I should consider changing and if there is anything else you think would be nice to check quickly in a format such as this.

I did not add in the crit scaling that Soul Fire gains, as I felt that it would bloat its damage over the other spells if I didn't give crit compensation to the other spells. However over the course of a fight they should all gain about the same benefit from crit (Soul Fire just guarantees benefit).

Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Looks very useful.

[Rayaleith]

@Zinin

Hmm... I thought that casting SF in either caster of meta form depends on MC procs. And at meta MC AND during DS, heavy procs or fury cap. I mean thank you very much for the effort but I thought the "rules" are based not in numbers but in procs.

This spreadsheet though makes me think whether I should push my haste a bit (at 8100 atm) towards 10K.

[Zinnin]

Hmm... I thought that casting SF in either caster of meta form depends on MC procs.

Having stacks of MC is a given..

[Werst]

I prefer the 10K haste > mastery mark as long as I offspec affliction but that is a "one size fits most" recommendation but I'm at 548ilvl. I'd probably go 8100 at like 530-535 and above that aim for 10K. I notice that even at low/8100 haste the higher you go in ilvl the more you get out of soulfire with of course it swinging further towards soulfire the higher in haste you go (at the expense of mastery that is).

Nice tool Zinn....impressive as always.

[Xorn]

I haven't really been around on the forums too much recently. However, I have noticed there is still a pretty large debate that doesn't seem to be anchored in real numbers around whether or not using Soul Fire in meta or caster form is better. So, since I had some free time this evening, I figured that I would try my hand at putting together a tool for people to figure out which is better for themselves with a little more ease.

This is what I came up with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tdjdTSHc#gid=2

If you have a google account you can go to 'File -> Make a Copy' and put your own values into the Parameter fields. Doing so will give you a very clear output on what numbers you should expect from your gear.

In the Damage Gain section you will see two numbers, the top one is the damage you gain from replacing Shadow Bolt with Soul Fire (per second) and the second one is the damage you gain from replacing Touch of Chaos with Soul Fire. If the Caster Soul Fire number is higher, you should always be using Soul Fire in caster form. This will mainly be the case at low levels of haste. If both numbers are very close I would default to using Soul Fire in caster form, as you are spending fury for virtually no change in damage, effectively throwing away the damage increase of ToC over Shadow Bolt. If the damage if far higher, which happens at high haste levels (mainly during haste procs) you should always be casting Soul Fire in meta.

Tell me what you think about it, what I should consider changing and if there is anything else you think would be nice to check quickly in a format such as this.

I did not add in the crit scaling that Soul Fire gains, as I felt that it would bloat its damage over the other spells if I didn't give crit compensation to the other spells. However over the course of a fight they should all gain about the same benefit from crit (Soul Fire just guarantees benefit).

God bless you. This is seriously helpful. I can see this sort of doc becoming the new standard for rotational hot issues. Not that I can think of any others off the top of my head, but nonetheless, very well done.

[Bonkura]

thanks zinnin, awesome tool. maybe obvious but we want to add buffed spellpower and mastery, right?

[EvreliaGaming]

I haven't really been around on the forums too much recently. However, I have noticed there is still a pretty large debate that doesn't seem to be anchored in real numbers around whether or not using Soul Fire in meta or caster form is better. So, since I had some free time this evening, I figured that I would try my hand at putting together a tool for people to figure out which is better for themselves with a little more ease.

This is what I came up with:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tdjdTSHc#gid=2

If you have a google account you can go to 'File -> Make a Copy' and put your own values into the Parameter fields. Doing so will give you a very clear output on what numbers you should expect from your gear.

In the Damage Gain section you will see two numbers, the top one is the damage you gain from replacing Shadow Bolt with Soul Fire (per second) and the second one is the damage you gain from replacing Touch of Chaos with Soul Fire. If the Caster Soul Fire number is higher, you should always be using Soul Fire in caster form. This will mainly be the case at low levels of haste. If both numbers are very close I would default to using Soul Fire in caster form, as you are spending fury for virtually no change in damage, effectively throwing away the damage increase of ToC over Shadow Bolt. If the damage if far higher, which happens at high haste levels (mainly during haste procs) you should always be casting Soul Fire in meta.

Tell me what you think about it, what I should consider changing and if there is anything else you think would be nice to check quickly in a format such as this.

I did not add in the crit scaling that Soul Fire gains, as I felt that it would bloat its damage over the other spells if I didn't give crit compensation to the other spells. However over the course of a fight they should all gain about the same benefit from crit (Soul Fire just guarantees benefit).

Great work as always Zinnin.

[Zinnin]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...CTTdMV3c#gid=2

I added a few things that people suggested from last night.

-Trinket Proc Numbers
-Damage per Fury Spent
-Raw Cast Damage

I might find a way to display the damage difference between the trinket numbers and the normal numbers later, but this was a pretty quick addition so I went ahead and did it. Will edit the first post with the new link.

[Count Zero]

Seems like that info could be parlayed into an addon, eh ? DemoFillers or something (I couldn't think of a more clever play on AffDots -- but I tried !)

[Brusalk]

Seems like that info could be parlayed into an addon, eh ? DemoFillers or something (I couldn't think of a more clever play on AffDots -- but I tried !)

Probably doable as a weakaura that displays the icon of what you should cast given your current stats.

[OMG7IMPS]

i haven't really been around on the forums too much recently. However, i have noticed there is still a pretty large debate that doesn't seem to be anchored in real numbers around whether or not using soul fire in meta or caster form is better. So, since i had some free time this evening, i figured that i would try my hand at putting together a tool for people to figure out which is better for themselves with a little more ease.


If you have a google account you can go to 'file -> make a copy' and put your own values into the parameter fields. Doing so will give you a very clear output on what numbers you should expect from your gear.

In the damage gain section you will see two numbers, the top one is the damage you gain from replacing shadow bolt with soul fire (per second) and the second one is the damage you gain from replacing touch of chaos with soul fire. If the caster soul fire number is higher, you should always be using soul fire in caster form. This will mainly be the case at low levels of haste. If both numbers are very close i would default to using soul fire in caster form, as you are spending fury for virtually no change in damage, effectively throwing away the damage increase of toc over shadow bolt. If the damage if far higher, which happens at high haste levels (mainly during haste procs) you should always be casting soul fire in meta.

Tell me what you think about it, what i should consider changing and if there is anything else you think would be nice to check quickly in a format such as this.

I did not add in the crit scaling that soul fire gains, as i felt that it would bloat its damage over the other spells if i didn't give crit compensation to the other spells. However over the course of a fight they should all gain about the same benefit from crit (soul fire just guarantees benefit).

does that spreadsheet include the damage done by your 7 wild as fuck imps?

[Cocobutters]

does that spreadsheet include the damage done by your 7 wild as fuck imps?

I only generate 7 imps but how do I make them wild as FUCK?!!!??

[Xorn]

does that spreadsheet include the damage done by your 7 wild as fuck imps?

Why should it?

[Rustjive]

If both numbers are very close I would default to using Soul Fire in caster form, as you are spending fury for virtually no change in damage, effectively throwing away the damage increase of ToC over Shadow Bolt.

Trying to think about this in a more mathematical way but feeling a bit tired so I'm looking for confirmation. If we take the DPET difference of Shadow Bolt and Touch of Chaos, divide that by the net fury per execute time, we get a ratio of what 1 Fury is worth in terms of DPS. We can then find the difference between Soul Fire's net fury per execute time, take the difference with the Shadow Bolt/ToC net fury per ET, and multiply that result by the DPS per Fury number we got previously. Add this value onto Caster 'damage gain' number. If this sum is greater than the Meta 'damage gain', then cast SF in caster. Correct?

Edit: As far as I can tell, my calculation isn't right (because it seems to say Caster SF > all until ludicrous stat levels), but I can't point out the flaw in logic. Is it because DS is finite length?

[Anthraxx]

@Zinn, is there a way for SF DPET to ever beat meta casting in caster form? I tried some extreme values and meta always wins... If meta DPET is always better how close is close enough to justify casting SF in caster form?

EDIT: caster form is better with super low haste - aka way below 8.1k, which is not really applicable in 5.3, is it? Conclusion - in 95% of the cases jsut cast SF in meta these days?

[Werst]

Someone who is good at simC APL's could do versions to reflect each strat. Another way to test what we think... From what I can tell by the spreadsheet its almost always better to use soulfire in meta at any kind of heroic or near heroic level. The gap is something like 20-25% bigger most of the time with no buffs then spikes up to insanely better with CD's/procs.

Feel like someone should meme girls gone wild with imps...except I don't want to see them getting naked, drinking, and making out w' each other....EVER

- - - Updated - - -

Oh as an aside...looking at Zinn's sheet I notice how close live fel flame and shadowbolt are in terms of dpet and they are equal in terms of DF generation. With the damage buff to FF in 5.4 is it possible FF would pass shadowbolt as a filler spell? At least for a super low haste high crit/mastery demo setup once we outgrow UVLS. Per the sheet FF is 91% of the shadowbolt dpet on live which seems to hold even with a 5K haste/20K mastery theoretical setup the same as if its 10K haste/15K mastery. I believe the buff to FF was 14 or 15% and it still seems to generate DF on PTR. I could see using FF during most of the fight then swapping to shadowbolt for warp/meta procs/etc.

At the very least I think its safe to say demo will almost never have to take KJC. So either we need aoe (MF) or we can choose to sync every amp proc with a DS via AD.

[Zinnin]

Trying to think about this in a more mathematical way but feeling a bit tired so I'm looking for confirmation. If we take the DPET difference of Shadow Bolt and Touch of Chaos, divide that by the net fury per execute time, we get a ratio of what 1 Fury is worth in terms of DPS. We can then find the difference between Soul Fire's net fury per execute time, take the difference with the Shadow Bolt/ToC net fury per ET, and multiply that result by the DPS per Fury number we got previously. Add this value onto Caster 'damage gain' number. If this sum is greater than the Meta 'damage gain', then cast SF in caster. Correct?

Edit: As far as I can tell, my calculation isn't right (because it seems to say Caster SF > all until ludicrous stat levels), but I can't point out the flaw in logic. Is it because DS is finite length?

So, I was going to do an 'adjusted' damage gain for Soul Fire by just adding the damage you get per fury, however I quickly realized that the higher haste you have the less fury you actually gain my casting Soul Fire in caster form.

Because you are gaining very close to the same amount of damage per Fury with both Soul Fire and ToC, when you use your Molten Core stacks in Metamorphosis you expend your Fury faster, meaning you get back to caster form faster which allows you more Fury generating casts.

For instance at 10k Haste your Fury Spent per second is ~35% higher using Soul Fire over ToC, which means for every one second of time you spend casting Soul Fire you are losing ~.3s of Meta uptime. If you take the Fury Gained per Second of shadow bolt, and add 30% you get 17, compared to 19 of Soul Fire.

That's a very rough napkin math look at it, but you get the point, which is that using Soul Fire in caster form isn't really gaining you that much fury over Shadow Bolt at high haste levels due to the fact that ToC is a static amount of Fury Spent /s and Soul Fire increases with haste.

[Deleted]

Jin'rokh HC

hey, I need some help with the opener, we killed the boss a few times but i'm not satisfied with my dps, what would be the best opener with
the uvols trinket? i save my DS for the pool which means when i get the trinket procc (usually right at the start) i have about
300 fury which isn't enough to stay in meta the whole 10 sec. , also i don't have enough fury to buff my 2nd HoG

how do you open this fight? with how much fury do you go into a pool?