No flying 5.2

[glowzone]

And in Skyrim, there IS such a system. It's called fast travel. You pull up the map, find any location that you have discovered, click it, and accept the fast travel. BOOM! Instant teleport. Even more convenient than the flying mount because you don't even have to steer, huh? But guess where THAT part of the game comes up in your post! NOWHERE!

I don't avoid fast travel in my arguement, because it's besides the point entirely, fast travel is questionable as well, but pretty much required, skyrim is far to vast for most people to travel on foot/horse.

Wow, because of flightpads is not.(and yes flightpads are questionable aswell)

Most importantly tho, you're not fast traveling unto your targets head, you still have to enter your cave/dungeon and kill all the skeletons before you get to the thing you actually need.

Final fantasy is also a strange case, since we're not talking about content we outlevel, even content you outlevel in wow isn't 100% safe in case you play on pvp servers, but once again, it only flies you to certain points, like flightpaths do.

There's a big diffrence in flying to specific points (friendly towns, important questhubs), and being able to land in the middle of the enemy stronghold, kill what you need and fly out. Both skyrim and final fantasy don't allow you to "instant travel" to any place you want, it's limited.

The ff and skyrim travel, is more like flight paths, thene flying mounts, and very much needed in a huuuuge gameworld.
Obviouslly some form of travel is needed, I never argued otherwise.

---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 11:47 PM ----------

Since I saw it mentioned a few times, Skyrim isn't the best of examples, because quite often once you make that long trek manually, you have a way point you can insta-travel to the next time you want to go there.

And as I said, I simply used skyrim because everyoner knows that journey upto that mountain, yes it's a bad example, I'll take it back, but as I said above, instant travel is allot more like flightpaths thene it is like flying mounts.

[GrieverXIII]

Gonna be oh-so-fun on my server, looking forward to it .

[Metallikiddd]

Just stop with the blame game and learn that one person does not make all the decisions in WoW.

maybe you can stop defending that nazi terrorist?!

[Manabomb]

You didn't die from the wolves in skyrim, or the lone bandits eighter.

I never claimed that they are a challange, nothing while leveling is a challange for a more advanced player.
Yet allot of people manage to die while leveling, hardly anyone ever makes it to 90 without dying, even on normal realms.

Sure once you're in full epic you can aoe these down, but it's not smart to pull the entire cave in questing greens, unless you're a tank.
So in theory your point stands, since we can only fly at 90, and you'll be doing just that to the mobs, I'll give you that.

I wasn't even talking about full epics or even partially blue'd characters. I'm talking the greens you can buy from the vendors at dawn's blossom and half hill running about chainpulling everything as dps specced. I guess I am an exceptional player in that regard, however that still doesn't take away from the fact flying mounts should be in the game as a convenience. You take what they have become away and players become irrational and irritated even in a small portion of the game (see Tol barad, molten front, iqd) while other players praise the gods that they gets to spend more time doing these dailies on slower grounded mounts.

Dailies are a wow chore designed to increase the relative time it takes to achieve exalted with a faction and also limit the daily income from gold and other items introduced with mop. They are not dynamic or even fun after the 7th or 8th day doing them even on a newly introduced faction reputation and are there purely to add some story to the game while giving the players something to do. Flying mounts are designed to lessen the annoyance and stress when it comes to these daily quests and other level cap quests (see tbc). Flying mounts have evolved from a awesome fun convenience to down right required to finish most of Icecrown and Storm peaks (unless you get the very terrible "rent a mount" mount) and were even further required for quite the number of zones in Cataclysm (deepholme, twilight highlands).

So to those players that find it fun and interesting to make their dailies (as we established the chores of wow) take longer on grounded slower mounts, how is that fun when you could be doing other things with that time lost doing other things that are more fun? It isn't, and matter of opinion aside running around on IoT chainpulling every mob in my actual raid gear isn't going to add or detract from the "epicness" because it's just dailies and having flying mounts enabled on it would just reduce the amount of qq from faction in-balanced servers and reduce the amount of time it takes mashing 1234 repeat to get your chores done.

[darkpower]

I don't avoid fast travel in my arguement,

Actually, you did!

because it's besides the point entirely,

You have any idea how quickly you made my brain hurt by making that your very next thing you wrote?

fast travel is questionable as well,

If it's beside the point (which makes me believe that you didn't need to mention something that you said you did when you really didn't), then why are you...? I'm confused at your stance now.

but pretty much required, skyrim is far to vast for most people to travel on foot/horse.

Which is part of the argument that the pro-flying mount people (like me) are saying about WoW!

Wow, because of flightpads is not.(and yes flightpads are questionable aswell)

One, flight PADS? I think you mean flight PATHS, which have existed since Vanilla.

How are they questionable, second of all?

Most importantly tho, you're not fast traveling unto your targets head,

Depends on where you're going to.

you still have to enter your cave/dungeon and kill all the skeletons before you get to the thing you actually need.

Which, if you pay attention in WoW, you still have to do. You don't get to use mounts at all indoors in, say, raids or 5 mans, and in outdoor instances, only ground mounts. So yeah, you're actually objecting to something that doesn't happen anyway.

And more to the point, look at what could happen if you should land in the WRONG place. Keep in mind the volume of mobs that can inhabit any one place. You could just as easily land right into a mind field. It's not like every single place you can land is a place you SHOULD land. Of course, not saying that every place that this can happen would be that dangerous seeing as how you can outlevel some zones, but if you're doing things like the Golden Lotus dailies or farming (something else you're failing to address in this argument), then you have to be careful you're not going to aggro a ton of mobs that can dismount you and then overwhelm you (especially if you're currently in a spec that's not ready to handle it, such as a Resto Shammy...for whatever Godforsaken reason you'd have to do ANYTHING other than do instanced content in any healing spec).

Final fantasy is also a strange case, since we're not talking about content we outlevel,

Only, we are, as you explain below in the second case of you contradicting yourself in the very next sentence.

even content you outlevel in wow isn't 100% safe in case you play on pvp servers,

You're assuming that every single person that plays WoW plays on a PvP server, which you just showed why you REALLY want them gone with that statement. You're asking for a nerf because you can't exactly kill lowbies who can simply fly away, huh? Bitch about nerfs to raid content yet want them to do shit like that. Makes sense.

but once again, it only flies you to certain points, like flightpaths do.

Which you just said you had a yet unnamed problem with, which means that you don't want there to be ANY other way than to be grounded when traveling somewhere a thousandth time.

There's a big diffrence in flying to specific points (friendly towns, important questhubs), and being able to land in the middle of the enemy stronghold, kill what you need and fly out. Both skyrim and final fantasy don't allow you to "instant travel" to any place you want, it's limited.

In the SNES and PS1 FFs, you were able to. The only reasons why the later games didn't was because they had a different hub system in place. Skyrim's let you be able to bypass many of the outdoor things, which is what FF's, and for that matter WoW's, are able to do, as well.

The ff and skyrim travel, is more like flight paths, thene flying mounts, and very much needed in a huuuuge gameworld.

Which is what WoW IS! In case you forgot, Azeroth and Outland is not exactly a small world.

Obviouslly some form of travel is needed, I never argued otherwise.

Then you forgot that you just wrote something that, in effect, argues that some removal of something is needed. Which tells me that you really don't know what you're talking about and are just trying to jump on a bandwagon.

[Deleted]

Oooo. Fantastic.

(also keeps supporting my theory that Blizzard regret adding flying mounts :P)

They've already openly admitted it. Was a great idea and design at the time though. I strangely miss paying the flying mount to dungeons and afk in the meantime.

[Theendgamelv3]

Let's say you're playing skyrim,you have to climb that 1000 steps or whatever mountain to get to the throat of the world, fight your way through packs of wolves, and a frost troll to finally get to the top.

How fun would that be, if you could fly to the top instead?

It's similar in wow, you avoid everything in the world, land on what you want, fly off again, I cannot understand how people don't see what it does to the world. You could go "don't use it if you don't want", well for starters that doesn't help the pvp department, and second, people will pretty much always do things the quick way even if they despise the quick way.

Sometimes people need limitations for their own good, they do not have the willpower to do things the hard way, even if the hard way would make it more enjoyable. You could get rid of travel alltogether and make a portal tab in your characterscreen, would that help the game? Some would argue it would, but I would disagree.

Limits aren't always a bad design choice.

However, you don't fly 1-60 and 85-90. So technically at those levels I too could pull a bunch of mobs and fight them off and try to reach the top of whatever place I wanted to go. People taking the easy way, is on them. It doesn't matter if they have will power or not. Obviously you are a example going by what you said, that you can choose the "hard" way. Basically no one IMO should say "take away flying" when they too fly themselves. Outside of a few instances where flying is needed (I can only think of Deepholm and Icecown and even then you can skip these zones) you can play the entire game without a flying mount. If people don't have the will power, that is their fault.

[glowzone]

So to those players that find it fun and interesting to make their dailies (as we established the chores of wow) take longer on grounded slower mounts, how is that fun when you could be doing other things with that time lost doing other things that are more fun?

This is quite a circular arguement unless I missed something "dailies are suppose to increase the time" and "flying mounts are suppose to make it take less time."Surely you can just design the dailies without flying mounts in mind, like they most likely will on this isle.

[DeadmanWalking]

maybe you can stop defending that nazi terrorist?!

I think maybe you have no clue what a Nazi and a terrorist is if you are trying to apply those terms to a person who designs the UI of a video game that makes calls you don't agree with. When you do this you shame yourself and any body who has ever suffered at the hands of a terrorist or a Nazi.

[glowzone]

If people don't have the will power, that is their fault.

I agree, I don't really care that others can fly, apart from pvp, wich atm I don't really have a shortage off, it doesn't effect me.
This doesn't however, change that in my eyes it's bad design.

If I as a gamedesigner (wich I am, no bigshot, just hobbyist) add a rocketlauncher in the first level, wich can make the whole game a brease, it's bad design, I do not get off the hook by saying "the player can chose not to use it",bad example maybe, but you get the point.

I'm not trying to remove flying mounts or force my rules on others, I'm just trying to explain why in my eyes it was a bad design choice, they could've made their content without flying mounts in mind and things would be better in my eyes.

But it's just an opinion, I'm aware of that.

[Theendgamelv3]

I agree, I don't really care that others can fly, apart from pvp, wich atm I don't really have a shortage off, it doesn't effect me.
This doesn't however, change that in my eyes it's bad design.

If I as a gamedesigner (wich I am, no bigshot, just hobbyist) add a rocketlauncher in the first level, wich can make the whole game a brease, it's bad design, I do not get off the hook by saying "the player can chose not to use it",bad example maybe, but you get the point.

I'm not trying to remove flying mounts or force my rules on others, I'm just trying to explain why in my eyes it was a bad design choice, they could've made their content without flying mounts in mind and things would be better in my eyes.

But it's just an opinion, I'm aware of that.

I agree a rocket launcher at first level is bad design in general. With that said, if flying was available at level 1 in WoW, that is bad design for WoW. Could have they made content without flying in mind, yea, but they didn't and haven't since Vanilla. With that said, you still don't fly for majority of levels. For 65 levels, you don't fly. I like what Blizzard is doing, you don't fly til 90. This way you still go through the content on the ground in a meaningful manner.

[Manabomb]

This is quite a circular arguement unless I missed something "dailies are suppose to increase the time" and "flying mounts are suppose to make it take less time."Surely you can just design the dailies without flying mounts in mind, like they most likely will on this isle.

Except you continue to misconstrue my point. Dailies are designed to make the reputations as a whole last longer as an alternative to having to create quests to level the factions from hated-exalted in a single day or repeatable rep turn ins that make said faction complete-able in a day.

Flying mounts are designed with dailies in mind to reduce the amount of time it takes to finish the dailies per day. Essentially it's increasing the amount of time it takes to finish the rep on the whole, but reduces the amount of time it takes to finish them per day. Making dailies on a island with no flying is counter-intuitive to the whole point and structure to the flying mount daily symbiosis.

I'm not saying that they have failed in the past with ground mount only daily hubs. On the contrary IQD was one of the most popular daily hubs in the same expansion both features were introduced. However over time things like Molten Front, Tol Barad, the pve aspects of Wintergrasp on the whole have become more of a thorn in the side rather than amazing and compelling content because once again, dailies are very much akin to chores.

[Seezer]

Damn straight!
So glad I made the choice to migrate back in June.

---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 12:41 PM ----------



How is it a PvE nerf?

Raid Bosses get a debuff when they look out the window and see an army of dragon mounts coming at them.

[Raugnaut]

I would be ok with no-flying if they A) allowed ALL mounts to be used while on the ground, and B) allowed for the swift movement speed on the ground (Although that would be silly on normal ground mounts). Huh, I guess maybe just A.

As for CRZ, Im hoping that Pandaria will NEVER undergo CRZ. CRZ is one of the least-thought out decisions by blizz to "combat" something that can easily be fixed by realm merging.

[Elysara]

disclaimer: I don't care at all about wpvp. I want the removal of flying mounts for pve reasons.

What exactly about Flying mounts effects PvE? You can fly over daily mobs that would probably dismount you and you waste an ungodly amount of time killing things?

[glowzone]

You have any idea how quickly you made my brain hurt by making that your very next thing you wrote?

The reason it doesn't matter is because we're talking about two totally diffrent kinds of travel, going anywhere you like is not the same as being able to fly to certain points on the map, that should be pretty obvious.

Which is part of the argument that the pro-flying mount people (like me) are saying about WoW!

But these are flight paths, flying mounts are not the same thing, surely you can see that.

One, flight PADS? I think you mean flight PATHS, which have existed since Vanilla.

Grammer police, classy, I spelled it right allot of times, I'm sorry if you find it so annoying it bothers you, it's quite sad to point out really.

How are they questionable, second of all?

I already went over this in one of my posts, they are questionable because they don't have any interaction from the player while traveling, boats and zepelins allow you to do SOMETHING, heck you might even get into a fight with another player, but you can work on profs or whatnot while on a boat or zep.

Which, if you pay attention in WoW, you still have to do. You don't get to use mounts at all indoors in, say, raids or 5 mans, and in outdoor instances, only ground mounts. So yeah, you're actually objecting to something that doesn't happen anyway.

Sure some quests are in a cave or in a big building , but these are in the minorities.
I don't remember in ff or skyrim to EVER land kill and travel away, there might be something in skyrim I don't remember, but it surely wasn't the way things normally went.

And more to the point, look at what could happen if you should land in the WRONG place. Keep in mind the volume of mobs that can inhabit any one place. You could just as easily land right into a mind field. It's not like every single place you can land is a place you SHOULD land. Of course, not saying that every place that this can happen would be that dangerous seeing as how you can outlevel some zones, but if you're doing things like the Golden Lotus dailies or farming (something else you're failing to address in this argument), then you have to be careful you're not going to aggro a ton of mobs that can dismount you and then overwhelm you (especially if you're currently in a spec that's not ready to handle it, such as a Resto Shammy...for whatever Godforsaken reason you'd have to do ANYTHING other than do instanced content in any healing spec).

If you have any reasonable reactiontime, your flying mount is in the air before any melee mob can hit you, so no, landing in a dangerous spot is not an issue, dismounting might be, but you're not going to do that unless you got a good spot anyway.

Only, we are, as you explain below in the second case of you contradicting yourself in the very next sentence.

We're talking about a daily area in this topic, you do not outlevel this. What questing are you doing in low level zones? You might be leveling profs or doing loremaster, but this isn't standard play at all. But yes you're right, if I walk into strangethorn, I won't be getting any "epic quests" no matter if I use a flying mount or not, don't see why you bring up something so obvious.

You're assuming that every single person that plays WoW plays on a PvP server, which you just showed why you REALLY want them gone with that statement. You're asking for a nerf because you can't exactly kill lowbies who can simply fly away, huh? Bitch about nerfs to raid content yet want them to do shit like that. Makes sense.

Personal attacks,classy, I don't even want flying mounts gone at this point, I said it was a bad choice whene they made said choice.
If you cannot see the diffrence, well to bad.

Also, I think I know how I play better thene you, I do not gank lowbies, thanks.

Which you just said you had a yet unnamed problem with, which means that you don't want there to be ANY other way than to be grounded when traveling somewhere a thousandth time.

I did, just not in your post, I don't like repeating myself to many times, only a reasonable amount of times, and as I pointed out, the problem with flying paths is that they aren't interactive, wich is a diffrent problem, but a problem non the less, this isn't a problem with skyrim or ff, since these versions are instant, flying paths are not instant. Instants aren't perfect eighter, wich is why I prefer the boats etc, but these can't be used everywhere, I understand blizz has to make compromises.

Then you forgot that you just wrote something that, in effect, argues that some removal of something is needed. Which tells me that you really don't know what you're talking about and are just trying to jump on a bandwagon.

Travel is indeed needed, flight paths, while not ideal, allow travel, I don't see the point in what you said here, I never said that travel in games was a bad idea, just because I pointed out flight paths have design flaws too, does not mean I think they are a bad idea.

Also finally, do not make stupid points like claiming I'm a lowbie ganker, thanks.

[Deleted]

If you don't want flying removed I find you have every reason to say so.
But if you do not like getting ganked and this is your reason, it's simply a bad reason.

Since you DID chose the wrong server type. You having no idea what eighter ment is no excuse, it's selfish, it's wanting the world to be safer because you didn't have a clue that you picked the dangerous one, and thene calling the people who like the dangerous world "pathetic".

Do not go into the wrong server type and thene judge the people who picked the right one, it's "pathetic", as you would say.

Want more reasons to not have flying removed? I don't want to fight a ton of mobs to get to my raid EVERY TIME I have to go there (which is quite often). I don't want to get ganked too, yeah that's another reason. One more reason is I prefer to spend my time wrapping up all the jobs I have and being effective in raid while not having to spend 2 hours on something because 3-4 horde guys decided to gank me. I'm not selfish, I just ask for the option to fly, no one forced YOU or anyone else that loves PvP to get on flying mounts, use your ground mounts and stop the crap (Everyone takes the easy way, I call that WEAK WILLPOWER). Well maybe the ppl who want flying removed are a bunch of whiners and a minority of the wow community found only in the forums. It's not about not wanting to do something with other players, it's having the freedom to do what I LIKE. When you choose server it doesn't say "You will get ganked mercilessly to the point you will logout", does it? By removing flying mounts you take away from me the freedom to do what I like (PVE), while you AREN'T FORCED IN AN PvE INSTANCE whether you are in a PvP or a PvE server. Who said I want to be ganked by you so you can have fun... I don't ruin others good time to have fun and I expect the same treatment, whether it's a PvE or a PvP server. Learn what selfish and freedom means and then reply to me. Until then pick your 1-2 friends that want to use ground mounts and wpvp with them (Doubt there are more).

[glowzone]

Except you continue to misconstrue my point. Dailies are designed to make the reputations as a whole last longer as an alternative to having to create quests to level the factions from hated-exalted in a single day or repeatable rep turn ins that make said faction complete-able in a day.

Flying mounts are designed with dailies in mind to reduce the amount of time it takes to finish the dailies per day. Essentially it's increasing the amount of time it takes to finish the rep on the whole, but reduces the amount of time it takes to finish them per day. Making dailies on a island with no flying is counter-intuitive to the whole point and structure to the flying mount daily symbiosis.

I'm not saying that they have failed in the past with ground mount only daily hubs. On the contrary IQD was one of the most popular daily hubs in the same expansion both features were introduced. However over time things like Molten Front, Tol Barad, the pve aspects of Wintergrasp on the whole have become more of a thorn in the side rather than amazing and compelling content because once again, dailies are very much akin to chores.

But these small quest zones where you can't fly are so small, that doing dailies surely can't take any longer thene flying in the bigger zones.
Blizzard's not dumb, they aren't making these ground zones huuuuge, with mountains in the way.

I can understand wanting flying mounts for the dailies in the leveling zones, but these zones are designed to be easy to traverese on foot, firelands daily hub was hilariously packed with dailies in a small area that took like what, a minute to traverse on a groundmount?

Why are these no fly zones a thorn in their sides thene? Surely noone is going to complain about travel time in the firelands zone, neighter IQD or the likes, the place is just to small.

[Grizelda]

Luxuries aren't necessities.

@Yogg-Saron It doesn't take much to realize that flying mounts kill off a lot more gameplay aspects than they add in their current form.

It COULD lead to more game play. I, for one, would love to see in flight jousting.

[darkpower]

Why are these no fly zones a thorn in their sides thene? Surely noone is going to complain about travel time in the firelands zone, neighter IQD or the likes, the place is just to small.

Thing is, no one is saying they ARE! They just get sick to death of seeing this argument come up every single time. No one complained about them doing that until someone started a thread saying "I hope this is a sign they will get completely removed" that began the bitch fest about people complaining about a non-issue.