PvP help please :)

[AutomaticBadger]

Hello peoples of the great and powerful internets! I made a post about 5v5 but people seem to think me an ape who was taught to type. So let me try a different angle.

What is the spike damage a Rogue can open with using a Pre-med>Ambush>Evis combo, this includes trinkets? What do you think of this build for patch 5.2 http://ptr.wowhead.com/talent#ry]T|?

With this build I would likely use Marked for Death in stealth to get the heal ticking. Then open with Pre-med>Ambush spam for 3 goes or however many I can get off>Evis/SnD

With this tactic used by 3 Rogues do you think it would be possible to Assassinate a team member in the opening bout? I'd then Vanish and repeat on the second only to Prep and redo.

Would this work? I know finding Rogues would be annoying but I think it doable. Also a point was once raised about being Fear suitable but with CoS and en mass nuke that hopefully kills in the opening bout I think it should work.

Thoughts?

[Enillor]

I definitely feel that rogues will be back to their annoying old selves with 5.2, bringing back the rogue/rogue 2s and rogue/rogue/Rdruid 3s. From what I have read so far it seems as this will be a viable comp once again and possibly start seeing a large number of thugcleaves back in 3s. Just my thoughts.

[Nicola]

If you want to play with 3 rogues and focus on very aggressive opening, you should go for a more aggressive talent build as well.
I don't play a rogue at the moment, but I think something like http://ptr.wowhead.com/talent#ryiE|may suite better for your intentions.

-Nerve strike stacks with mortal strike and wound poison so you'll have a massive healing reduction on the enemy, making it a lot easier to outburst their healers.
-Leeching poison is pretty terrible for arena, not only you can't use para/mind poison, glyphed elusiveness happens to be much better.
-I prefer ShS over CnD, but I think both work for a burst orientated comp.
-Both para poison as Prey of the Weak are viable, but I prefer the utility of para poison...
-Shuriken Toss, well yeah, ranged attacks are nice when going with so much melee.

Again, I currently don't play a rogue, I'm to lazy to ask my ex-partner for help now, but I think the build I just made in 2min time is a bit better then your current for your intentions.

[AutomaticBadger]

If you want to play with 3 rogues and focus on very aggressive opening, you should go for a more aggressive talent build as well.
I don't play a rogue at the moment, but I think something like http://ptr.wowhead.com/talent#ryiE|may suite better for your intentions.

-Nerve strike stacks with mortal strike and wound poison so you'll have a massive healing reduction on the enemy, making it a lot easier to outburst their healers.
-Leeching poison is pretty terrible for arena, not only you can't use para/mind poison, glyphed elusiveness happens to be much better.
-I prefer ShS over CnD, but I think both work for a burst orientated comp.
-Both para poison as Prey of the Weak are viable, but I prefer the utility of para poison...
-Shuriken Toss, well yeah, ranged attacks are nice when going with so much melee.

Again, I currently don't play a rogue, I'm to lazy to ask my ex-partner for help now, but I think the build I just made in 2min time is a bit better then your current for your intentions.

Just some quick questions about some of the choices and points made.

Shadowstep over Cloak and Dagger seems a bit strange given the extra Ambushes that can be used while taking Subterfuge. I get the utility and increased spike but being able to always close the gap and use Ambush feels a bit stronger. Also the buff to damage removal makes it feel weaker.

Personally after learning that the new 4 set PvP gets rid of the auto Crippling makes Leaching and Paralytic Poison feel much weaker. In that respect I'd rather take Cheat Death given no healer and the heal from Recuperate takes time to get us up there. Also all energy should be used to kill verses reduce damage making feint fall to the side.

Prey on the Weak is the only real one for a burst composition given all Rogues should be Sapping before the open. Dirty Tricks offers nice utility but the target shouldn't last long enough.

Nerve Strike might be worth using if Healers are a trouble but that would take testing. Deadly Throw actually gets more appealing after the point about lacking any ranged skills. Combat Readiness isn't actually very good looking at it now with that statement in mind.

Finally Suriken Toss isn't that great when you think about the free 5 Combo point Recuperate before opening and even next to storing CP it feels lack luster. If anything we will be flooded with CP and unable to use them fast enough requiring a CP swap in all likelihood.


Back to something I asked. With this set up what is the opening burst that can be expected?

[Nicola]

Just some quick questions about some of the choices and points made.

Shadowstep over Cloak and Dagger seems a bit strange given the extra Ambushes that can be used while taking Subterfuge. I get the utility and increased spike but being able to always close the gap and use Ambush feels a bit stronger. Also the buff to damage removal makes it feel weaker.

While cloak and dagger makes it a bit easier to stick on your target, it really shouldn't be a problem with auto cripple and stuns. The worst what can happen is having a mage blink or a deathknight grip you away, which is easy solved by a shadowstep as well. Not to mention that shadowstep can be used on friendly targets and doesn't require stealth / dance.
I don't think cloak and dagger is a bad choice tho, but if I have to believe arenajunkies, most rogues prefer shadowstep.

Personally after learning that the new 4 set PvP gets rid of the auto Crippling makes Leaching and Paralytic Poison feel much weaker. In that respect I'd rather take Cheat Death given no healer and the heal from Recuperate takes time to get us up there. Also all energy should be used to kill verses reduce damage making feint fall to the side.

I really think having close to 100% uptime on a 30% damage reduction is superior to cheat death in 3s, but since you are going without healer I suppose cheat death will work as well.
Also, because of the healing nerfs and mortal strike effects, recuperate really isn't that strong anymore. 0.5% health a second it is in case you're curious.

Prey on the Weak is the only real one for a burst composition given all Rogues should be Sapping before the open. Dirty Tricks offers nice utility but the target shouldn't last long enough.

A 10% damage increase is nice, but at least one rogue should be running with para poison for the root. Damage is not going to help a lot if your target sprints away


As for the burst, I think it will be fairly good since you'll have the element of surprise, however, several classes punish stacking extremely hard so if you fail to get a kill almost instantly, you're pretty much screwed. Not to mention you really have to watch out for classes with immunities.
Mages will counter your comp pretty hard, warriors will probably crush the 3 of you at once, nor do you want a demolock pop his chaoswaves when you are all on 1 target.

[AutomaticBadger]

As for the burst, I think it will be fairly good since you'll have the element of surprise, however, several classes punish stacking extremely hard so if you fail to get a kill almost instantly, you're pretty much screwed. Not to mention you really have to watch out for classes with immunities.
Mages will counter your comp pretty hard, warriors will probably crush the 3 of you at once, nor do you want a demolock pop his chaoswaves when you are all on 1 target.

I was betting on the opening being a sure fire take down. At the very least even in a 3v3 situation taking 1 opponent down massively hinders the rest of the team. The Vanish combo should allow for some breathing room to reset and manipulate the field.

The Warriors should shouldn't hurt too bad given the speed they should go down. Couple that with either taking them first or last. Most comps people tend to spread I find so they shouldn't be within range to fear. Same going for Warlocks. Pretty much if the spike can close the deal take them out first then the rest. If the spike can't take them but allows for enough time to kill someone who can easily be taken down, everyone other than that and an Elemental Shaman, just watch them until they are far enough away. The window period to kill should be around 3 seconds and shouldn't be long enough really to hinder us.

The opening should be controlled in either case given Sapping allowing for staggered positioning. In either case they will burn their trinket, allowing for a reset, or not react fast enough.

My main issue right now is trying to figure out just how much damage it will do. Also this choice of action will require people to work together well. None of that "I'll be the star" crap.

[Dcruize]

Personally after learning that the new 4 set PvP gets rid of the auto Crippling makes Leaching and Paralytic Poison feel much weaker.

Are you sure? I've just logged onto the PTR and the 2 set PVP bonus on the S12 armor gives deadly brew still. I've hit the training dummy and crippling poison is being procced by paralytic. I'd say paralytic on one rogue would be vital, for shiving them in the smokebomb after they've trinketed your stun.

[Pothelegitba]

Rouges are going to come back in a storm.. Looks good