How can people be ok with Vengeance?

[Grim32]

I guess you never saw a Brewmaster tank. They can sometimes do more hps than the healers while they are tanking and out dps'ing the DPS.

Must have been some bad healers. No seriously. BM tanks get three heals. On my 490 BM tank I heal for a crit heal at 100k - followed by 15 sec CD. I have seen many healers in MoP who suck at their class - how do I know if I dont play one? I see the same spec & class, with less gear out healing them by 30%+.

So yes, a BM can do that, but the healers must REALLY suck.

-Grim

[foxHeart]

I guess you never saw a Brewmaster tank. They can sometimes do more hps than the healers while they are tanking and out dps'ing the DPS.

I'm sorry that you've experienced such braindead healers and dps.

[Mawnix]

I'm sorry that you've experienced such braindead healers and dps.

Lol'd, and completely agreed.

[Waterisbest]

Let me understand this correctly - the tanks, who traditionally do very little damage, are now hitting pretty hard and actively contributing to bringing the boss down faster... and somehow this is a bad thing?

Also, I have NEVER seen a tank be top in an actual raid. 5H? Sure. LFR? Sure. This only happens because people AFK or are autofollowing, or aren't really paying attention.

A DPS's pride? Respect? As a long time tank, I've never thought much of DPSer that would warrant respect. The only time might be on DPS race fights (Ultrax), but I congratulate as a whole. DPS aren't really in a position to save the raid when wiping by healing, and they're not intended to hold aggro. If they want respect, they need to bring the boss down, not just top the meters.

Moreover - no one was playing as a tank because it was stressful, you weren't appreciated, and you never did that much damage. This was punctuated by having fail DPS either face pulling or nuking from the get-go before a tank could gather aggro.

I fail to see any merit in your argument. This is a classic case of 'complaining about a good thing'.

Sorry to break to you, then you haven't done a real raid with real tanks and real dps.

---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:06 PM ----------

I'm sorry that you've experienced such braindead healers and dps.

He is compeltely right in what he is saying. Monks tanks outheal healers on the 4th boss in HoF.

[Mawnix]

Sorry to break to you, then you haven't done a real raid with real tanks and real dps.

It sounds like you haven't either if your Tanks are doing more dps than your DPS 0.o.

[Rivin]

The concept of Vengeance as a measure to prevent tanks from losing aggro to DPS in five-mans is long-dead. Vengeance was redesigned in MoP and it can't even effectively serve that function anymore.

Vengeance now scales with incoming damage (used to be maximum health under the old model). The reason for that is that a lot of tanks' defensive abilities scale with attack power. Thus, Vengeance allows tank defenses to scale with incoming damage. That's its current purpose. Certain bosses generate a crapton of Vengeance because they deal a crapton of damage--causing tanks to deal incredible damage in these encounters is only a side effect of allowing their defenses to scale with this increased damage.

[Promdates]

Must have been some bad healers. No seriously. BM tanks get three heals. On my 490 BM tank I heal for a crit heal at 100k - followed by 15 sec CD. I have seen many healers in MoP who suck at their class - how do I know if I dont play one? I see the same spec & class, with less gear out healing them by 30%+.

So yes, a BM can do that, but the healers must REALLY suck.

-Grim

If the brewmaster is good, he's using Statue of the Black Ox. This puts a shield on people in the raid when the tank does, currently, 1600% of his ap in damage. On top of this, the monk also has Gift of the Ox orbs that can spawn when he's tanking. Between those two mechanics, he can rack up some high healing. Most of it will be absorbs through the shield, but recount/skada/wol counts shields as healing.

[Lucetia]

Sorry to break to you, then you haven't done a real raid with real tanks and real dps.

---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:06 PM ----------



He is compeltely right in what he is saying. Monks tanks outheal healers on the 4th boss in HoF.

Again you want to keep going on and on, yet you refuse to link your armory, logs and other information proving your points instead you just complain as if they are facts and want everyone to accept you aren't you lying about your information.

[Darsithis]

If a dps is outgearing a heroic, he/she, 1) doesn't belong there.

So those of us with well-geared dps specs shouldn't be allowed to do heroics for fun, VP, or for shards/mats?

[Waterisbest]

Lets look at the fights, and since I play in a 25 man guild, I'll use 25H for the numbers.

Stone Guard - 3/10
Feng - 7/10
Gara'jal - 0/10
Spirit Kings - 1/10
Elegon - 0/10
WotE - 3/4
Vizier - 0/10
Ta'yak - 0/10
Garalon - 0/10
Mel'jarak - 9/10
Un'sok - 1/10
Shek'zeer - 10/10
Protectors - 0/10 normal - 1/10 elite
Tsulong - 2/10
Lei Shi - 1/10
Sha of Fear - 0/10

Of all of the fights at least 5 of them have mechanics which cause tanks to do high damage from abilities (Feng), or lots of aoe damage (Mel'jarak/Shek'zeer). You can game two of the bosses (Stone Guards, Protectors) by tanking multiple bosses in the fight. For 11 of the fights though, DPS should be winning the meters. If they're not,they're doing something wrong. In the beginning of the xpac, tanks were doing absurd damage on every boss. It wasn't until dps got gear they were able to catch up and surpass tanks on the majority of the fights.

Just taking the top 10 on each and not looking the REAL dps numbers of each class and specc. On 8 of the fights, tanks are doing far higher dps then most dps speccs. Top 10 on a fight represent jack shit. It's about a set collective data.

[Mawnix]

So those of us with well-geared dps specs shouldn't be allowed to do heroics for fun, VP, or for shards/mats?

Apparently so, Darsithis. Apparently so.

[Granyala]

Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!

Sure I am bad for not being able to keep up with a tank that tanks all the adds on wind lord. :<

Well the problem I have with vengeance is, that it makes tanks horrible at questing, b/c their base damage has to be ridiculously low for it not to be op.

[Aquamonkey]

Must have been some bad healers. No seriously. BM tanks get three heals. On my 490 BM tank I heal for a crit heal at 100k - followed by 15 sec CD. I have seen many healers in MoP who suck at their class - how do I know if I dont play one? I see the same spec & class, with less gear out healing them by 30%+.

So yes, a BM can do that, but the healers must REALLY suck.

-Grim

I'm sorry that you've experienced such braindead healers and dps.

It only happens when there is a lot of low-moderate constant raid dmg. Absorbs count as healing.

[Toroc]

I actually think it makes tanking more fun. Not really sure if it is worth all the QQ. This High amount of Damage/DPS is better than them having crazy threat causing them to just stand there.

It is being nerfed anyway so unless you have a resto shaman healing things should be a little bit different now.

Lets drop this "DPS PRIDE" junk because your still contributing to the group and thats what it's all about.

[Adramalech]

Must have been some bad healers. No seriously. BM tanks get three heals. On my 490 BM tank I heal for a crit heal at 100k - followed by 15 sec CD. I have seen many healers in MoP who suck at their class - how do I know if I dont play one? I see the same spec & class, with less gear out healing them by 30%+.

So yes, a BM can do that, but the healers must REALLY suck.

-Grim

The high healing numbers he sees from Brewmasters probably come from Guard from the Ox Statue. The absorb counts as healing in some damage meters, I think, giving the impression that the Monk is doing some amazing healing, when in fact all he's doing is spreading absorbs around. Yes, they're being useful there in mitigating raid damage, but they're far from the usefulness of a healer. It's another case of taking results from damage/healing meters as word of God.

[slime]

I think this is only an issue when raid leader starts asking the tank to do more to put out more dps because the team is failing the dps check.

[Waterisbest]

Again you want to keep going on and on, yet you refuse to link your armory, logs and other information proving your points instead you just complain as if they are facts and want everyone to accept you aren't you lying about your information.

If I link my armory and it has gear/whatever stuff you are looking for, you start believing what I am saying? I am not saying this just by looking at my raid, my skada, my numbers or whatever you are thinking. I am LOOKING AT THE TOTAL DPS DONE OF EVERY FIGHT THROUGH WORLDOFLOGS.COM. Hope that helps you understand.

[Rivin]

It is being nerfed anyway so unless you have a resto shaman healing things should be a little bit different now.

The hotfix isn't a nerf (unless you're doing something you shouldn't be). In normal situations, Vengeance won't reach more than 300k. Tanks have over twice that much health. The hotfix isn't going to affect Vengeance under normal circumstances for a long time.

[RoKPaNda]

How is anyone NOT okay with vengeance? Vengeance is good for the raid. Previously tanks were always at the bottom of the damage meters, now tanks come and do what tanks do AND provide more damage output for the raid.

Honestly who cares if a tank is up pretty high on the damage meter? Great, the #1 DPS on this fight was a tank, that in no way takes anything away from the dedicated DPS. They can still compare their performance amongst each other. It's not like you can bring 7 tanks to the raid and all of them will be doing massive damage. For it to work the tank has to have a pretty big vengeance stack.

Vengeance is good for PvE. I'd much rather have the tanks doing damage while tanking than not.

[huth]

Somebody explain to me why this is even considered a problem? So active tanks do relevant amounts of damage. Well, great, so the DPS don't have to do everything themselves. Tanks still won't take DPS spots since Vengeance only helps if you're actively tanking something, and on most fights, there's only enough work for 1-2 tanks.

So what, exactly, is the problem here? People stepping on your e-peen? Well, tough. Don't care.

Note: I'm a DD, not a tank.