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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    Yes is true, Sylvanas does aprove the use of the plague and why not? the plague give her an advantage against her enemies, also the forsaken does multiple types of experiments to improve the way they life or the way the fight (the plague)
    Then people should stop with that shit and say "We are assholes who give a shit about anything as long as our enemies die"

    And i've been talking about this a lot recently, the Forsaken especially Sylvanas have a habit of abusing Powers that tend to backfire.

    The Plague destroys the Land and anything else it touches, it won't be soon until other forces than just the Alliance will stand against the Forsaken if they continue to use the plague.
    The Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle or Knights of the Ebon Blade will not stand idle and watch how the Forsaken destroy anything with the Plague.

    Sylvanas enforced Varimathras under her will, he helped to create the plague and in the end it backfired with the Battle for the Undercity.

    Sylvanas ressurected Godfrey, to use him against the Worgen, he thanked her with a bullet in the back.

    Now Sylvanas is using the Plague (A product of someone who betrayed her) and doesn't even think of the potential consequences.


    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    Well she have never acted as a dictator, the only time she did something agaisnt someone that was against her was when that person do something to harm her or her people (For example that guy at the forsaken starting zone that becames the boss of the rottenbrain group, they got targeted cause they were planning to attack brill)
    So this whole "Those who do not stand with the Forsaken, stand against the Forsaken" is just hot air in the end?
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-01-14 at 06:46 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle or Knights of the Ebon Blade will not stand idle and watch how the Forsaken destroy anything with the Plague.
    Argent Crusade is idealistic and weak, Cenarion Circle is too far and Ebon Blade doesnt care, as long as Arthas is dead.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No, she refers to them as a bulwark; a bastion, a fortress!
    That can refer to them becoming a Faction that will stand for thousands of years.
    She refers to them as both. However isn't it funny that she very rarely (if ever) calls them a people.

    Against the Infinite
    It's pretty obvious what is implied by "infinite" - the afterlife.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Which is typical behaviour for someone who just committed suicide.

    As in: She doesn't want him to throw away their lives.
    I'm not sure what your first response is meant to imply. But your second point here is again countered by the same quote. She doesn't care for her people, at least not as a people which is what we're discussing.

    The quote about her saying she doesn't care if they die pretty much leaves your arguments as moot. This is the problem I've stated before with Sylvanas and the Forsaken, I can understand why people may enjoy playing the villains or bad guys etc etc, but I cannot understand why people feel they need to white wash their actions when they are so clearly selfish and/or wrong. As in this case where she pretty boldly says she doesn't care for her people.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-01-14 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And that is countered by panic when she finds out what is about to happen to her people.
    What panic!? She does not panic or care at all when she see's what will befall her people. This isn't something that's up to interpretation and you have yet to actually show me a piece of the story that shows her genuinely concerned for her people as your last one was quickly followed by her openly dismissing her people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    She is at such an emotional point that she doesn't even care about her own life.
    If she is in such a state that she would kill herself, what gives you the idea that her words have any meaning?
    What hogwash. In that case everything she said in the story isn't true which you know is BS. At that point it's not a story but a bunch of pointless emotional ramblings.
    If that's also the case the same can be applied to every quote you've given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Descriptions given by the writer are stronger and more trustworthy than the ramblings of an emotionally unstable Banshee.
    And the writer says she does care about them.
    Opinion of the all-knowing-writer overrules direct quotes from Sylvanas. That's basic literature.
    When did Kosak say she cared for the Forsaken as a people?
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-01-14 at 09:08 PM.

  5. #105
    Why does it matter if she cares a bit about forsaken?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    Why does it matter if she cares a bit about forsaken?
    Because she's their leader?
    It's also showing one of her recent highlighted negatives that being selfishness.

  7. #107
    I mean how does this help her reputation acroos Azeroth. She still commits the same crimes that we killed Scourge for.

    You know Nurgle loves his children,too.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Well, that won't take long if it takes THREE Val'Kyr tor resurrect her.
    According to the lore, there are only 4 Val'Kyr left and the lesser ones aren't strong enough to resurrect Sylvanas.
    It took 1 val'kyr the first time. I think it only took so many the second time because Godfrey shot her in the head. And what? You don't think she'd sacrifice hundreds of the lesser val'kyr if that's what it took? Or god forbid try to create more herself from human women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

    "This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.

    That's Sylvanas.. She is caring.
    There is no other way to describe those lines except for a woman that sees something she cares about being destroyed.
    I can think of a way. A greedy little girl seeing her works torn down now that she's gone. A child throwing a fit that someone else isn't playing with her pieces the right way after she's quit the game, so now she wan'ts back in because not playing(i.e. going to hell) isn't fun.
    Last edited by Dybia; 2013-01-14 at 09:25 PM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

    "This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.

    That's Sylvanas.. She is caring.
    There is no other way to describe those lines except for a woman that sees something she cares about being destroyed.
    Or is simply shock, seeing your toolshed getting destroyed has to be a bummer. Her first reaction is that if the Forsaken are that weak. So she doesn't exactly start off as sympathetic. On top of this were she to care about them in this context how do you know it's of them as a people and not simply as a tool she stated they were?
    Or as Dybia pointed out her own shock about her work being undone.

    But as I continue to mention in the same part of the story we dip into her stating she doesn't care for their fate.

    The reason this is getting annoying for myself is that you are providing sources that don't indicate she actually cares for them as a people, meanwhile the paragraph I keep referring specifically says that she doesn't care.

    So even if you were to believe what you've quoted as showing she cares (Which is doesn't) it directly conflicts with a later quote, of which you cannot argue in it's context because it's pretty clear. So at this point we have ourselves a horribly written character who contradicts herself in less than a minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Do you know depressed people?
    Do you know people who are suicidal?
    Those people are depressed and frustrated, stuff like that is what they yell all the time.
    Myself, up until recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's not my problem that you want to believe that the crying of a woman that just killed herself is a well thought and rational response.
    This might be a social breakthrough for some people, but upset people often yell things that they don't mean.
    That's often combined with fear, panic or crying.
    Again with this. If what you're saying is truly the case then everything in the story isn't true, which as I said you must know to be hogwash, as otherwise all we have are the emotional ramblings of an Undead Elf. You cannot be serious. It's also great that you can apply the "but she's emotional" card on my arguments and quotes, but not your own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    "This isn't real!" - Why is she refusing to believe that it's real if she doesn't even care about them?
    "Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns." - Why is she yelling 'No No' when she doesn't care?
    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!" - Why is she crying if she doesn't care?

    All those responses, all that yelling and crying is caused by emotions.
    Emotions she has when she thinks of her people.
    Ah I thought you meant Kosak actually said that.
    In either case with this refer to the first response with this quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You're trying to attack her by denying the feelings that ARE presented in the story.
    "She cared nothing for their fate.
    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!""


    You can't get much clearer than that. The only person here forcing emotions into the story is yourself. As I've pointed out numerous times this quote debunks your entire argument. It's clear and to the point. It doesn't need any false interpretations like the rest of your quotes, it's short and to the point.
    If you're only argument against this is that she's emotional then you haven't debunked the quote at all but entire story itself along with your own arguments.
    None of your quotes even hint at her caring for them as a people, meanwhile this completely says that she doesn't.

  10. #110
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    Interesting observation:

    How did Sylvanas feel when her nemesis, Arthas, killed and then reanimated her as an undead? She was pretty miserable no?
    So what kind of person does that make her, when she kills and then raises as many humans as she possibly can only in order to swell the ranks of her army?
    What does that tell you about those she raises? Are their wills free? Sylvanas hated Arthas with a burning fury for what he did to her, why don't those she has raised feel the same about her? I don't think their minds are free after all. Indeed, the Forsaken as a people are evidence of the huge discrepancy here, they shared Sylvanas'feelings about Arthas to such a degree that they chose her to lead them in their hunt for vengeance.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Good. So one headshot and one throw of a huge tower and she isn't immortal anymore!


    1. We have no proof that lesser Val'Kyr can do that.
    2. She has no "immortality-deal" with them.
    3. We have no proof that she would actually kill hundreds of them.
    4. They don't even know how to make Val'Kyr! But it's allright if she wants to test it on humans, they are the enemy anyway.


    That a good way of how a guy would look at it.
    We have no proof they can't. If it just takes more to revive her when her brains get blown out, why wouldn't it just take more of the lessers for any other death?

    Then why do they serve her at all? It wasn't just a "Make me immortal" deal she had with them. It was a total obedience deal. They wanted a master whose absolute orders they could follow. Whether that included sacrificing themselves for her or raising hundreds of undead for her.

    No way to make more val'kyr? There were dozens in Andorhal. Doesn't matter if they were lesser val'kyr. The nine that originally made the deal with Sylvanas said they were the LAST val'kyr.

    Also, what does me being a guy have to do with observing Sylvanas acting like a brat when she sees Garrosh breaking her possessions after she just killed herself? She has no emotional connection to these people in the forsaken. The only one that we're supposed to believe she has a real connection to is Nathanos who I don't think we've actually seen with her once. They are THINGS to her. HER things. And she doesn't like Garrosh breaking her things.

  12. #112
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    Would you guys give it a break? I understand your passion about the character, but you are going all-out on each other to prove your point and are, in turn, ignorant enough to not take the opposing opinion any thoughts. Try to think what purpose this whole thread will serve tomorrow? You are pissing one another off, wasting your time trying to convince each other to change their minds when you know that won't happen. Say what you want about Sylvanas, good or bad, and leave it at that. No need to defend your opinion because it is just that, YOUR opinion. Don't force your opinions on other people.
    I. Like. To. Kill. Things.
    For Pony!

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisholina View Post
    Would you guys give it a break? I understand your passion about the character, but you are going all-out on each other to prove your point and are, in turn, ignorant enough to not take the opposing opinion any thoughts. Try to think what purpose this whole thread will serve tomorrow? You are pissing one another off, wasting your time trying to convince each other to change their minds when you know that won't happen. Say what you want about Sylvanas, good or bad, and leave it at that. No need to defend your opinion because it is just that, YOUR opinion. Don't force your opinions on other people.
    If that's how you want things, then do that and get out while the rest of us have fun arguing trying to prove points about the character. Because just saying what you think and leaving sounds stupid and boring, and you're being a little dramatic with the "Forcing you views on others" crap. We're discussing lore here. This isn't a face book image of Sylvanas we're supposed to comment on and leave it at that.

  14. #114
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisholina View Post
    passion about the character
    And that is why she's an interesting character. No one in Warcraft was disputed so much, and with such passion, for such a lng time. Wrynn's time in the spotlight is gone, he is just another NPC now, Garrosh changed jobs to another boss, Thrall is green superman in retirement. But Sylvanas still ignites the forums.

  15. #115
    She HAD a good story. Everything up till cataclysm was very good, the older the better really, as in warcraft 3 and frozen throne. Cataclysm got really silly, cliched and just generally lazy in its writing; MoP utterly and thoroughly raped whatever was left of warcraft lore.

  16. #116
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    She HAD a good story. Everything up till cataclysm was very good, the older the better really, as in warcraft 3 and frozen throne. Cataclysm got really silly, cliched and just generally lazy in its writing; MoP utterly and thoroughly raped whatever was left of warcraft lore.
    IMO, it's the opposite. Up to the end of WotLK it was just a vengeance story, quite obvious and simple. "I'll get you next time, Arthas!" (x10). But the most interesting things happen after the credits. "I won, now what?" - it's the question writers almost never make their characters face. But she faced it. And the outcome was interesting. Some say she's a villain and scream with foam at their mouths that she's shallow and bland (simply because these words are supposed to be insulting), yet the part of playerbase that plays Forsaken understands her choices.
    Last edited by Haven; 2013-01-15 at 12:45 AM.

  17. #117
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    When Alleria gets back she's gonna team up with Vereesa and kill Sylvanas.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    IMO, it's the opposite. Up to the end of WotLK it was just a vengeance story, quite obvious and simple. But the most interesting things happen after the credits. "I won, now what?" - it's the question writers almost never make their characters face. But she faced it. And it was interesting.
    Totally agree. I think they've taken her in an interesting direction, still keeping the dark charm alive.

  19. #119
    I am really just hoping for the windrunner sister reunion blizz promised back at blizzcon before cataclsym was released.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    When Alleria gets back she's gonna team up with Vereesa and kill Sylvanas.
    Doubt it not during a burning legion invasion, we don't know what circumstances in which the reunion is going to take place. I seriously doubt blizz is going to kill off Sylvanas if they wanted to they could have killed her off in her short story when she jumped off the cliff. The only way I see Sylvanas dieing is if she started attacking the horde like how Garrosh is doing which she is not going to do because she sees the horde as a safety net. Also she doesn't have a suitable replacement if she was going to die don't you think blizzard would be developing a forsaken with leadership attributes. Besides all these points she share a symbiotic relationship with the forsaken if she goes so do the forsaken as shown in her short story. To think Alleria and Vereesa is going to team up and kill Sylvanas sounds like some serious fan wank. We also don't know how the loss of the sunwell has effected Alleria she could come back as a blood elf after all this time fighting demons.

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