Why Guild Applications are becoming a thing of the past

[Deleted]

I run a guild (with my wife) who's sole purpose is to teach new raiders how to raid, getting them the experience they need to progress further.

We also have a progression side that does relatively well. (36th on the realm isn't a bad achievement for what is labelled a guild for newbies.)

And we DO have an application process, which has been there for a very good reason.

As to those who claim "if you don't do well in raids you get kicked", bullshit. We don't kick someone for performing badly, sure they may not get as many raid spots as some people who perform perfectly but we try to take them aside and teach them, show them where they are/were going wrong. Doing that has gotten us some kickass raiders who stay loyal because we got them to where they are. Some who progress to the point where we can't offer the progression they need so they leave for better, more experienced guilds.

Do we mind that? Hell no, it's why we do what we do!

nice read!! Some people really are patient and love to explain and teach others. I wish I had the patience. If required I can be straight to the point, courteous. However, I do not have the required patience, because I lose all my positiveness when people repeat the same mistakes.

Guilds like yours allow new players to pick up the game. It is also a very good way to slowly but surely build up a good guild from the ground, and creating friendship in a positive atmosphere. But like I said you do need the required patience, as well as staying positive even when frustrated, with the knowledge they can leave or not show up any time they want to.

Its like EVE University. I think at some point in WoW, a few months ago even, Blizzard did introduce "newbie-friendly" guilds on realms via a pilot.

[Deleted]

The reason why we have guild applications is mostly because we want to know more about the person that want's to join the guild. He can get in without making an application but most of the time they just want to talk to you at the most annoying times. Also it's a hell of a lot easyer to have something with a nice overview then some chat log.

Also I think our application is fun to fill out

http://divium.eu/apply.html

[Deleted]

As a raid lead for my middle of the pack 10m team, I try and avoid using application forms at all costs. Not only are they annoying but anyone can manipulate a form to make themselves look good and is never a good representation of their playing ability. Some things though which people ask for on those forms are quite helpful, like providing logs of fights they've done, even it's only on LFR mode you can still get an understanding of how well they know and can play their class.

But the main way I usually recruit people for my team is actually just via pugging. As typically if you're down a member of your team in 10m you're never going to perform as well as you did, so i find picking up a random and if they turn out decent hit em up at the end of the raid and offer them a spot. Usually still implement some kind of trial period but only ever lasts a couple of weeks, by that time you know whether they are going to be dedicated and a quality raider.

As a 10m yes that is a great but for 25 you simply have to keep application forms up...I don't have time to talk to 10 people each night that are interested in joining. And from all the good applications I have had in my WoW "carreer" 1 not failed...I think your view is really wrong on app forms. A bad player won't even put effort in copy/pasting someone else his form.

It also allows other officers to see who is interested insted of 1 guy handling it through /w...the pugging things stays the same as obviously you always try to get good people in. In 10m the recruitment process is a lot easier as you don't have to think about the other 15 people around mixed with that 10m guilds often have only 1-2 leaders.

I run a guild (with my wife) who's sole purpose is to teach new raiders how to raid, getting them the experience they need to progress further.

We also have a progression side that does relatively well. (36th on the realm isn't a bad achievement for what is labelled a guild for newbies.)

And we DO have an application process, which has been there for a very good reason.

As to those who claim "if you don't do well in raids you get kicked", bullshit. We don't kick someone for performing badly, sure they may not get as many raid spots as some people who perform perfectly but we try to take them aside and teach them, show them where they are/were going wrong. Doing that has gotten us some kickass raiders who stay loyal because we got them to where they are. Some who progress to the point where we can't offer the progression they need so they leave for better, more experienced guilds.

Do we mind that? Hell no, it's why we do what we do!

I'm sorry, but if you did this back in TBC or maybe even Wrath I'd have applaud what you are doing. But at this point in the game where there tons of websites + ingame tools to help you get going in raiding I find it rather laughable. You can't teach a person to move out of a puddle, and if they can't visit Icy-veins, Noxxic, EJ, etc for 5 mins to sort out the rotation than they aren't worth your time in the first place.

As I sad, back in TBC when information about raiding wasn't so widely spread I would have supported you, now you are supporting a brainless mouthbreather community.

[Granyala]

Casual guild that does raids or a guild dedicated to progressive raiding specifically?

I think the guild exists since TBC. I'm in it since 4.0 cata.
We raid 25man as far as we can, our current progress is 16/16normal and 3/6 HC-MV.

We cleared Firelands25 HC up to Rag and completed DS25 HC with the 25% nerf. (obv. only due to the nerfs)
Judge for yourself if we are a raiding guild or not.

[TreezusSaves]

Here is how you don't handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: You elitist jerks! You're just making the bar too high! I can show you I'm so much more than my application, but you won't give me a chance!
Guild: lolthreadlock

Here is how you handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, I have made significant changes in my itemization and rotation and achieved a much higher DPS (55k). Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We appreciate your updated application, and we see that your DPS is now 55k (which is definitely an improvement), but that is still insufficient for our needs. We do not have room for you at this time.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, based on my current DPS of 72.1k, I am pushing the limits imposed upon me by my item level and delay from internet lag. I have been using every resource available to me to increase my output both in terms of skill and itemization. Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We see that your DPS, while still lower than our average, is adequate to handle the heroic progression we are attempting. Furthermore, based on your impressive improvement, it stands to reason that your DPS will increase as your item level also increases through gear that you do not have access to. On that note, we are pleased to offer you a trial membership.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

[Deleted]

Nothing like it an application shows who the person really is like along with the history of the person, Experience is pretty big on top tier guilds. Trial periods last long simply because they want to see if you are perfect to be on their roster if not obviously fail you and be replaced It's as simple as that.

You want to be in a good guild? Show them how much you want to be in it; Show them how good you truly are instead of JUST CAN I JOIN YOUR GUILD I HAS THIS EXPERIENCE IN PUGS which well is actually rude mind you and the most important of them all are WOL logs like literally that's like a #1 requiment in most top tier guilds to see wtf your doing if your doing stupid stuff like standing in Breathe of fear or some other dumb stuff.

Analysis is what makes an application and that's why top guilds and even mid tier guilds want to analyze the best they can of you.

Very much this. If the person can make a good application there is a good chance that he actually got some sort of brain capacity and know how to play this game.

[Deleted]

Here is how you don't handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: You elitist jerks! You're just making the bar too high! I can show you I'm so much more than my application, but you won't give me a chance!
Guild: lolthreadlock

Here is how you handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, I have made significant changes in my itemization and rotation and achieved a much higher DPS (55k). Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We appreciate your updated application, and we see that your DPS is now 55k (which is definitely an improvement), but that is still insufficient for our needs. We do not have room for you at this time.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, based on my current DPS of 72.1k, I am pushing the limits imposed upon me by my item level and delay from internet lag. I have been using every resource available to me to increase my output both in terms of skill and itemization. Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We see that your DPS, while still lower than our average, is adequate to handle the heroic progression we are attempting. Furthermore, based on your impressive improvement, it stands to reason that your DPS will increase as your item level also increases through gear that you do not have access to. On that note, we are pleased to offer you a trial membership.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

This is rare in this time of the game though, you are describing how I got in one of my first raiding guilds in TBC in the second option...but I don't think applicants come back after they have improved (if they even bother getting better).

[MarizzaDraenor]

This is rare in this time of the game though, you are describing how I got in one of my first raiding guilds in TBC in the second option...but I don't think applicants come back after they have improved (if they even bother getting better).

Depends on how you handle their applications. A well written application will get a detailed and extremely polite reply as to the reasons they got declined. If status changes i dont see why they wouldn't apply again. If you insult and make them feel bad ofc they wont.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Here is how you don't handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: You elitist jerks! You're just making the bar too high! I can show you I'm so much more than my application, but you won't give me a chance!
Guild: lolthreadlock

Here is how you handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, I have made significant changes in my itemization and rotation and achieved a much higher DPS (55k). Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We appreciate your updated application, and we see that your DPS is now 55k (which is definitely an improvement), but that is still insufficient for our needs. We do not have room for you at this time.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, based on my current DPS of 72.1k, I am pushing the limits imposed upon me by my item level and delay from internet lag. I have been using every resource available to me to increase my output both in terms of skill and itemization. Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We see that your DPS, while still lower than our average, is adequate to handle the heroic progression we are attempting. Furthermore, based on your impressive improvement, it stands to reason that your DPS will increase as your item level also increases through gear that you do not have access to. On that note, we are pleased to offer you a trial membership.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

Lmao the latter reminds me of me in Vanilla. The former reminds me of what I had to deal with as a recruiter/class officer in BC.

[Beebeey]

Here is how you don't handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: You elitist jerks! You're just making the bar too high! I can show you I'm so much more than my application, but you won't give me a chance!
Guild: lolthreadlock

Here is how you handle rejected applications:

Applicant: Here is my application. My DPS is currently 40k.
Guild: We appreciate your application but considering your 40k DPS we do not have room for you right now.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, I have made significant changes in my itemization and rotation and achieved a much higher DPS (55k). Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We appreciate your updated application, and we see that your DPS is now 55k (which is definitely an improvement), but that is still insufficient for our needs. We do not have room for you at this time.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

*Some time later*

Applicant (same): Here is my updated application. As you can see, based on my current DPS of 72.1k, I am pushing the limits imposed upon me by my item level and delay from internet lag. I have been using every resource available to me to increase my output both in terms of skill and itemization. Please reconsider me for the position.
Guild: We see that your DPS, while still lower than our average, is adequate to handle the heroic progression we are attempting. Furthermore, based on your impressive improvement, it stands to reason that your DPS will increase as your item level also increases through gear that you do not have access to. On that note, we are pleased to offer you a trial membership.
Applicant: Thanks for your consideration.

I have done this believe it or not.

[TreezusSaves]

This is rare in this time of the game though, you are describing how I got in one of my first raiding guilds in TBC in the second option...but I don't think applicants come back after they have improved (if they even bother getting better).

I agree, it's not something you see very often anymore. That being said, when it does happen (and there is an actual trajectory of improvement), that person almost never gets turned down if the position is still open.

[Deleted]

I think the guild exists since TBC. I'm in it since 4.0 cata.
We raid 25man as far as we can, our current progress is 16/16normal and 3/6 HC-MV.

We cleared Firelands25 HC up to Rag and completed DS25 HC with the 25% nerf. (obv. only due to the nerfs)
Judge for yourself if we are a raiding guild or not.

It's an exception then. The majority of other raid focused guilds have strict policies on not keeping people around if they feel that they underperform.
On this backwater realm they even care more about ridiculous things like trade chat conduct and Lfd dungeon conduct than anything else, even if the person in question is a top performing player. A former guild officer of my guild was declined by another guild on the sole basis of trade chat incidents alone.

[Gilian]

If you are not willing to put into some minor effort to fill out some fort of application, why should I waste my time on someone too lazy to put forth a legible, decent app? It is a screening process for me, if you can't even be bothered to fill out everything in its entirety my guild is not going to waste time carrying you.

Indeed. If someone is not bothered to answer some questions in 15 minutes time then I know enough.

[Beebeey]

I have done this believe it or not.

z
Actually I've done this with three guilds in particular now.

[Granyala]

It's an exception then. The majority of other raid focused guilds have strict policies on not keeping people around if they feel that they underperform.

So do we (but they have to be pretty resistant to learning so it's rare). But we offer them a Whelpling status, they can stay in the guild but won't raid with us.

[MarizzaDraenor]

It's an exception then. The majority of other raid focused guilds have strict policies on not keeping people around if they feel that they underperform.
On this backwater realm they even care more about ridiculous things like trade chat conduct and Lfd dungeon conduct than anything else, even if the person in question is a top performing player. A former guild officer of my guild was declined by another guild on the sole basis of trade chat incidents alone.

We do also. We aren't by any means Saints but your general attitude is a reflection on the guild and therefore you have to be cautious.

[TreezusSaves]

z
Actually I've done this with three guilds in particular now.

If you were not accepted, then I would ask them why they declined to choose you after you meet adequate progression standards and show a clear commitment to the guild. Most of the time that position has been filled by a competing applicant. If that is the case, then the problem was not the application itself, but the people who are also competing for the job.

[Beefhammer]

A lot of guilds are in a bad place these days and from what I've read here and there don't really seem to understand why. Overly strict requirements are a part of it; keeping your place in the raid more by fear and performance than anything else is another. This is pretty much what a lot of guild culture has become among the wannabe progression guilds. It's a tough system and it wasn't a huge surprise to me that those that enjoy raiding for what it is--beating bosses in large groups--migrated to the less-than-optimal fields of LFR once it was available.

Guilds in general need to rethink their culture a bit. It should be more about teamwork, teamwork implying a game and fun, instead of some military-style dictatorship in which you get ruthlessly cut if you don't measure up. Helping people get better is usually easier than constantly recruiting. That gets to guild applications and overly strenuous requirements where an alternate approach of expansion into multiple teams with an emphasis on improving people and perhaps starting some friendly progression competition in the guild itself would be more helpful and likely more fun. This is not to say that guild applications are not useful; they are. But the stringent requirements to be able to be raid-ready on day 1 or you suck probably filters out a lot of decent players that could use some help up.

I don't know that this could ever happen because it's really a culture that can only work in a mature, adult, drama-free environment. Nonetheless this is how a lot of real-life companies work: investing in your team is always better than constantly replacing it.

Just my two cents on it. I did the progression thing during Wrath, dropped out of it for Cataclysm and am not really all that interested in going back into that system as it stands now.

I understand that feeling wholeheartedly, that is why my wife and I pursued a progression guild that was about fun. All it took was some realm forum posts and a vent chat to get in to one of the best guilds on our server (she had only been playing for a few months and had never raided). There are plenty of fun minded, teamwork oriented, progression guilds out there. They may not be world first or server first guilds, but they focus on downing content while it is relevant and can get the job done without all the crap that usually around.

In Vanilla I was part of and lead one of those strict guilds, and it was fun for a while when learning MC, BWL, and the rest up to Naxx since online guides and strats really were not that common. You really needed to focus to figure out how to beat them, even though they were simple raids compared to now. But today attitudes are different, and guilds need to recognize this. If they did they would not be on forums complaining about how Blizzard needs to do something to save them from themselves.

[Granyala]

We do also. We aren't by any means Saints but your general attitude is a reflection on the guild and therefore you have to be cautious.

Agreed. If our members appear insulting and rude -> less people interested in us -> harder to replace people that leave.

[Deleted]

We do also. We aren't by any means Saints but your general attitude is a reflection on the guild and therefore you have to be cautious.

How so? Considering the person in question wasn't even in their guild when he fought against the trolls, it was hardly a valid reason to decline him. He's of the opinion that he doesn't have to take crap from anyone, and fights back.