Why are the orcs and draenei still at war?

[Deleted]

Why are orcs and draenei at war ?! Good question. Here's another good question: WHY ARE PANDAREN IN A STATE OF CIVIL WAR ALL OF A SUDDEN ?!

[Enosh]

Doomhammer didn't agree with the war against the Draenei and never trusted Gul'dan. I'm not sure why he continued to fight the Humans after he learned of Gul'dan's machinations, destroyed the Shadow Council, and took over the Horde. Perhaps he succumbed to the madness and blood lust that surrounded him.

or he was just doing what orcs tend to do with or without demon blood, kill and murder

see: garrosh and all the orcs happy following him

[The Madgod]

or he was just doing what orcs tend to do with or without demon blood, kill and murder

see: garrosh and all the orcs happy following him

You obviously don't know orcs and you obviously don't understand the politics of the Horde and why the fourth war (which is essentially what this is) occurred in the first place.

[mistuhbull]

You obviously don't know orcs and you obviously don't understand the politics of the Horde and why the fourth war (which is essentially what this is) occurred in the first place.

The Twilight's Hammer started fucking with shit in order to cause Chaos and neither side could swallow their pride enough to prevent it from escalating

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 11:54 AM ----------

Doomhammer didn't agree with the war against the Draenei and never trusted Gul'dan. I'm not sure why he continued to fight the Humans after he learned of Gul'dan's machinations, destroyed the Shadow Council, and took over the Horde. Perhaps he succumbed to the madness and blood lust that surrounded him.

Because Doomhammer aint no quitter. The War's been started, gotta see it to the end

[Aquamonkey]

Because Doomhammer aint no quitter. The War's been started, gotta see it to the end

I can understand finishing the 1st War when he took over, but they had won when the Humans fled Stormwind. I don't see why he continued and started the 2nd War.

[Deleted]

I can understand finishing the 1st War when he took over, but they had won when the Humans fled Stormwind. I don't see why he continued and started the 2nd War.

I hate to be THAT guy who posts this, but he did it because Blizzard wanted a new warcraft game.

[Skorpe]

Doomhammer didn't agree with the war against the Draenei and never trusted Gul'dan. I'm not sure why he continued to fight the Humans after he learned of Gul'dan's machinations, destroyed the Shadow Council, and took over the Horde. Perhaps he succumbed to the madness and blood lust that surrounded him.

That or his homeworld was ravaged and destroyed and his people needed a new home. The second war was to ensure that the horde was the top dogs of the world. They simply wanted to conquer Azeroth and then settle their world. Unfortunately they lost.


The orcs, while demon crazed, ravaged the peaceful draenei. Despite the draenei's attempt to make peace, the orcs kept killing them. The orcs are definitely the guilty party and now they are alligned with the Alliance. Old wounds such as slaughtering 80% of your population don't heal well. I don't see the Blood Elves forgiving the scourge...

[Aquamonkey]

That or his homeworld was ravaged and destroyed and his people needed a new home. The second war was to ensure that the horde was the top dogs of the world. They simply wanted to conquer Azeroth and then settle their world. Unfortunately they lost.

The orcs, while demon crazed, ravaged the peaceful draenei. Despite the draenei's attempt to make peace, the orcs kept killing them. The orcs are definitely the guilty party and now they are alligned with the Alliance. Old wounds such as slaughtering 80% of your population don't heal well. I don't see the Blood Elves forgiving the scourge...

There was nothing wrong with the Orc world until it was torn apart at the end of WC2X.

The Orcs weren't demon crazed when they went to war with the Draenei. They were tricked into believing the Draenei were going to destroy them. The Draenei attempted to make peace was by speaking blasphemy against the Orcs' religion.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 03:46 PM ----------

I hate to be THAT guy who posts this, but he did it because Blizzard wanted a new warcraft game.

It probably made a lot more sense before more of the Orc/Legion backstory was retconned into the universe.

[mistuhbull]

There was nothing wrong with the Orc world until it was torn apart at the end of WC2X.

The Orcs weren't demon crazed when they went to war with the Draenei. They were tricked into believing the Draenei were going to destroy them. The Draenei attempted to make peace was by speaking blasphemy against the Orcs' religion.

IIRC the demon magic being used was beginning to corrupt the world already. Especially places like HFP which was decently livable before.

And yeah, Velen has a really bad case of FootInMouthitis when it comes to the Naaru and other races

[Deleted]

If the Draenei had simply told the Orcs about Kil'jaeden then things would have been different. Lets also not forget the Velen sent most of his own people to be slaughtered in Shattrath to save his own ass. Hundreds of worlds have been fed to the Legion thanks to the Draenei. They are hardly innocent little lambs in all of this.

There was probably not much room to talk to them while they were hacking down on them.

[mistuhbull]

There was probably not much room to talk to them while they were hacking down on them.

he had a perfectly amicable conversation with Durotan where he proceeded to shit on the Orc's entire religion

[Deleted]

The Orcs had so much blood lust that they peacefully coexisted with the Draenei for almost 1000 years. There were also Orcs who questioned their war with the Draenei.

The Orcs drank the Blood because they thought it was steroids. They didn't know it would warp their minds. Only Gul'dan knew this when he offered it to them. Without the Blood, the Legion could only use the Orcs by impersonating their ancestors and spirits.



Doomhammer didn't agree with the war against the Draenei and never trusted Gul'dan. I'm not sure why he continued to fight the Humans after he learned of Gul'dan's machinations, destroyed the Shadow Council, and took over the Horde. Perhaps he succumbed to the madness and blood lust that surrounded him.

And like I said none of that frees them of their guilt. Being tricked into something is tragic, but they were not mind-controlled. They are responsible for their actions.

Doomhammer kept fighting because he wanted to take Azeroth for the Horde. That's your typical orc.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 06:53 AM ----------

he had a perfectly amicable conversation with Durotan where he proceeded to shit on the Orc's entire religion

Without recalling the conversation, I'm still pretty sure Velen would never "shit" on someone else's religion, and what he offered was probably only the truth. I don't know why he never talked to them about KJ and the Legion. But the little bit I remember about this scene was Velen being captured by Durotan when the orcs were already corrupted by the Legion. It was probably too late then anyway and Velen was surely glad he was able to get out of this alive. The orcs were at a point where the Draenei probably didn't trust them anymore. Before that they coexisted peacefully for 1000 years with no Burning Legion in sight. Probably never saw the need to talk about them. And I guess he had no idea that KJ had contact to Ner'zhul, or else he probably would've stepped in.

[Aquamonkey]

There was probably not much room to talk to them while they were hacking down on them.

Plenty of time to educate the Orcs about the Legion during the 1000 years they peacefully coexisted. IDk when Velen had his vision, but he should have been actively recruiting races to fight the Legion.

And like I said none of that frees them of their guilt. Being tricked into something is tragic, but they were not mind-controlled. They are responsible for their actions.

Doomhammer kept fighting because he wanted to take Azeroth for the Horde. That's your typical orc.

They were tricked into attacking the Draenei. This, they are responsible for. "Just following orders" is not an excuse.

However, Orcs are not responsible for the things they did under the effects of the Blood Curse. Yes, they willingly drank the Blood, but they didn't know it had mental effects. Their steroids were spiked with a psychoactive drug without their knowledge. IRL, you cannot give consent when you are drugged in this way. That's why date rape is a type of statutory rape.

I mentioned Doomhammer because he started the 2nd War despite being Blood-free. It's inconsistent with his motivation. He disagreed with the war on the Draenei because he didn't think it was a just war. He believed Gul'dan and the warlocks were taking the Orcs down the wrong path. But when he deposed them, he continued their war.

If the Orcs were so blood thirsty and hellbent on conquest, why didn't they attack the Draenei sooner? They had 1000 years to start a war with the Draenei on their own.


Back to the original topic: I noticed this part of the epilogue for Rise of the Horde. After Thrall finishes recounting the events of the book:

Thrall stared. The draenei? The Prophet Velen? Here?
He sank slowly in his chair as the full significance struck him.
The worst enemy the orcs had ever known had come to Azcroth. Had been welcomed into the Alliance.
How could there possibly be peace between Horde and Alliance now?
"Ancestors save us," Thrall whispered.

Even Thrall, knowing the full story between the Orcs, Legion, and Draenei, still considers them the worst enemy the Orcs had ever known. The Draenei are worse than the Legion or Gul'dan in Thrall's mind.

[RyanEX]

Plenty of time to educate the Orcs about the Legion during the 1000 years they peacefully coexisted. IDk when Velen had his vision, but he should have been actively recruiting races to fight the Legion.


They were tricked into attacking the Draenei. This, they are responsible for. "Just following orders" is not an excuse.

However, Orcs are not responsible for the things they did under the effects of the Blood Curse. Yes, they willingly drank the Blood, but they didn't know it had mental effects. Their steroids were spiked with a psychoactive drug without their knowledge. IRL, you cannot give consent when you are drugged in this way. That's why date rape is a type of statutory rape.

I mentioned Doomhammer because he started the 2nd War despite being Blood-free. It's inconsistent with his motivation. He disagreed with the war on the Draenei because he didn't think it was a just war. He believed Gul'dan and the warlocks were taking the Orcs down the wrong path. But when he deposed them, he continued their war.

If the Orcs were so blood thirsty and hellbent on conquest, why didn't they attack the Draenei sooner? They had 1000 years to start a war with the Draenei on their own.


Back to the original topic: I noticed this part of the epilogue for Rise of the Horde. After Thrall finishes recounting the events of the book:

Even Thrall, knowing the full story between the Orcs, Legion, and Draenei, still considers them the worst enemy the Orcs had ever known. The Draenei are worse than the Legion or Gul'dan in Thrall's mind.

They got along amicably. They weren't (waggles fingers) friends. Last I recalled Durotan and Doomhammer were surprised when they saved from the ogre by a Draenei party.

Also, let's not forget that when Velen tried to talk to them about Oshu'Gun they were ready to tear him apart for desecrating their holy mountain. And this before they drank the blood.

And finally maybe Thrall's horror about the Draenei stems from knowing about what his people did to the Draenei back on Draenor, and the thought of a race with a very LEGITIMATE reason to hate the orcs with every fiber of their being in the Alliance telling them of their history...yeah. I think that would scare him.

[Granyala]

I don't know why he never talked to them about KJ and the Legion.

Who would YOU believe:
Your honored spiritual ancestor, who has guided you well for no one knows how long

OR

Some alien from another planet your ancestor told you not to trust.

Thrall stared. The draenei? The Prophet Velen? Here?
He sank slowly in his chair as the full significance struck him.
The worst enemy the orcs had ever known had come to Azcroth. Had been welcomed into the Alliance.
How could there possibly be peace between Horde and Alliance now?
"Ancestors save us," Thrall whispered.

Ouch. But Velen and Thrall met later on and that changed his view, didn't it? oO

[mistuhbull]

Who would YOU believe:
Your honored spiritual ancestor, who has guided you well for no one knows how long

OR

Some alien from another planet your ancestor told you not to trust.



Ouch. But Velen and Thrall met later on and that changed his view, didn't it? oO

Even if they had the conversation before the whole KJ thing, how's that gonna play out.

Look Orcs, we're not bad guys, but there are bad guys chasing us. Now they look exactly like us, only they're red...and bad. But we're not bad at all, OK?

[Deleted]

My guess is that it goes on simply because Draenei sided with Alliance. Besides from the whole Kil'jaeden treachery that drove the orcs against their "draenei invaders", there's actually been pretty few conflicts between the two races, as long as th draenei understand that the orcs were tricked, then "possessed" into slaughtering them.
And if someone can understand this, it's the people who were forced to flee their homeworld because most of their bretheren were turned into power-crazy demon lords imho.

[Deathgoose]

The Legion had the Orcs hopped on psychoactive drugs. IRL laws, people can't give consent when someone slips them psychoactive drugs (statutory rape, aka date rape). It's a mitigating circumstance that should be taken into account when punishment is being decided.

Thrall wasn't born into captivity. He was found as a baby after his parents were killed.

That analogy is a bit off, since the date rape drug implies the one that was slipped the drug was the victim, and you wouldn't punish the victim in any event.

A more proper analogy was for someone to spike your energy drink with PCP, LCD, or whatever, and you go out and shoot up a pre-school and make little ashtrays out of 4 year old skulls for the lulz.

In what country do you think you would walk free with just a "...and don't let it happen again!" stern lecture?

[Aquamonkey]

That analogy is a bit off, since the date rape drug implies the one that was slipped the drug was the victim, and you wouldn't punish the victim in any event.

A more proper analogy was for someone to spike your energy drink with PCP, LCD, or whatever, and you go out and shoot up a pre-school and make little ashtrays out of 4 year old skulls for the lulz.

In what country do you think you would walk free with just a "...and don't let it happen again!" stern lecture?

The difference is that they were ordered to go on a killing spree while under the effects of the drug. You can't give legal consent in those situations.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 11:25 AM ----------

Also, let's not forget that when Velen tried to talk to them about Oshu'Gun they were ready to tear him apart for desecrating their holy mountain. And this before they drank the blood.

Because people are always amicable when you insult their religion... For most of human history, even minor blasphemy was met with intense hostility, regardless of religion.

And finally maybe Thrall's horror about the Draenei stems from knowing about what his people did to the Draenei back on Draenor, and the thought of a race with a very LEGITIMATE reason to hate the orcs with every fiber of their being in the Alliance telling them of their history...yeah. I think that would scare him.

While this is true, the language suggests that the Orcs hate the Draenei just as much. It doesn't say "the worst enemy of the orcs."

[RyanEX]

The difference is that they were ordered to go on a killing spree while under the effects of the drug. You can't give legal consent in those situations.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 11:25 AM ----------


Because people are always amicable when you insult their religion... For most of human history, even minor blasphemy was met with intense hostility, regardless of religion.


While this is true, the language suggests that the Orcs hate the Draenei just as much. It doesn't say "the worst enemy of the orcs."

I don't recall him insulting their religion, just in a nutshell stating that Oshu'gun was theirs and they needed it back. Just another case of the orcs having a tendency to take what belongs to others and turn it to something of their own.

I can buy that, since Thrall's knowledge of the Draenei was based on second hand information that was given to him by other orcs that had taken part in the slaughter. Orcs that believed, and probably still believe that the Draenei were secretly plotting to kill them all. Because we all know that the orcs HAVE NEVER started anything. It was all just misunderstandings.