Free Will

[Gheld]

Correct, and since it is predetermined, we never really had a choice in the matter did we?

You are both ignoring Quantum Mechanics. Determinism is an illusion. There exists equations which could be used to calculate the likelihood that I will fall through my chair as though it weren't even there. The very same equations are used to allow the gates in the CPU on your computer to compensate to the probability that electrons might randomly appear on the wrong side of it.

In fact an upcoming piece of technology (potentiative touch screens) takes advantage of quantum tunneling in order to react differently to varying levels of manual pressure. Very few pieces of modern technology would actually work in a predictable and deterministic universe (because they are designed to function in the opposite).

[Hraklea]

Correct, and since it is predetermined, we never really had a choice in the matter did we?

First, it doesn't mean it is 100% predetermined.

Second, you're excluding the "bounds" from the "self". (sorry, bad english)
How do you define a person excluding its brain, its conscious? I'm not a victim of the chemistry in my brain, I am the chemistry in my brain.

[Gamdwelf]

Take some chemistry courses and tell me how reactants are sentient.

I don't know but you are telling me that chemicals make decisions not people.

I am claiming that the aggregate of chemical reactions and electrical impulses make up decisions and it is possible to make different decisions. Therefore having free will.

[Pull My Finger]

If we gonna go down to basics lets do it seriously. Why are you here on MMO-Champion? You want entertainment right? Why? Because you are bored? Is being bored a conscious decision you made? Is being horny,hungry,tired,depressed also a conscious decision to you people?

You are here because of something you have no control over. Your brain told you *Hey, I'm understimulated! You lazy bum do something about it!* So you did and here you are. Nothing you do on here is really a free will choice then. You are just trying to make your master(brain) happy. In fact it's this process of emotions and feelings that drive every action we do and you have no control over it!

Maybe that's the way you function.

[Rukentuts]

I don't know but you are telling me that chemicals make decisions not people.

No, I'm saying there's no such thing.

You are claiming that lifeless "dumb" chemicals are capable of decision-making.

[Dezerte]

I'm wondering if my earlier posts were ignored either because; a) they made too much sense or b) they made no sense.

Free will is a illusion, but that's really just a tl;dr.

[Hraklea]

Your brain told you *Hey, I'm understimulated! You lazy bum do something about it!* So you did and here you are.

But I decided to enter in this particular website, in this particular thread. Also, who am "I" if I'm not my brain?

[Deleted]

Maybe that's the way you function.

Oh, you function differently? Please, do tell.

[Mayhem]

Just because I love philosophical arguments:

Free will implies that your conscious decisions determine your course of action. Studies have been done showing that the brain makes the decision after you already are acting - in other words the brain justifies your actions rather than determining them.http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind...ore-you-decide

This tends to indicate that free will is an illusion or that the common conception of free will is false (or at least incomplete), at least if we assume a temporally anchored consciousness.

thanks, but i fear the people in this thread moved on to ignoring this and repeating themselves ^^

[Gamdwelf]

No, I'm saying there's no such thing.

You are claiming that lifeless "dumb" chemicals are capable of decision-making.

I'm not Chemicals don't make decisions, I make decisions, *click click* with chemicals.

[Rukentuts]

I'm wondering if my earlier posts were ignored either because; a) they made too much sense or b) they made no sense.

Free will is a illusion, but that's really just a tl;dr.

Of course it is. The only people that claim it is not, are the ones seemingly convinced that lifeless chemicals are capable of making decisions.

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 01:05 PM ----------

I'm not Chemicals don't make decisions, I make decisions, *click click* with chemicals.

You are nothing but a giant bag of chemical reactions. It's a pretty accurate description of the human body.

[Gheld]

thanks, but i fear the people in this thread moved on to ignoring this and repeating themselves ^^

Like how nobody is acknowledging these simple postulates:
#1. Our entire experience is electromagnetic in nature.
#2. Electromagnetism is governed by Quantum Mechanics
#3. Quantum Mechanics (which is based on proven, empirical science) suggests that causality is an illusion. And if causality is an illusion then nothing is actually pre-determined.

[Deleted]

Two things really.

1) If free will isn't available and the world is fully deterministic, then our entire justice system is very hypocritical. As how can you punish someone for committing a crime they never had any choice but to do.

2) Reading this thread shows how egotistical human beings really are. It's always MY choice, stop and think for a moment how much of your life is actually determined by you.

Are you eating your dinner because it's what you wanted or because of what was on offer at the supermarket?
What car are you driving? Is it the one you want, or the one you can afford?
What job are you in? Is it the one you want, or the best that you could find?
Is your spouse/partner your one true love or simply a person who's life coincided with yours and someone who shares similar values?
The list is pretty endless, everything in your entire life depended on the decisions of other people at some point in time.

Which leads me to believe in either
a) all of this is predictable in accordance with physical laws and we are in a deterministic world. see above re: justice system

b) Much more enjoyable would be that we have free will, but it is not one of the individual but that of our collective choices. Everything everyone does matters, and as such that force can be controlled. Potentially for the benefit of whole humankind, but as evidenced by dehydration, starvation, poverty, illness, death and general misery, it seems as a race we feel its much more beneficial for ~0-1% of humanity to reap the benefits of what millions have sown.

[Gamdwelf]

Of course it is. The only people that claim it is not, are the ones seemingly convinced that lifeless chemicals are capable of making decisions.

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 01:05 PM ----------

You are nothing but a giant bag of chemical reactions. It's a pretty accurate description of the human body.

And I as a aggregated Bag of chemicals tell those chemicals what to do, by choice, free will choice, and so do you with your chemical bag.

[Xenofreak]

If we gonna go down to basics lets do it seriously. Why are you here on MMO-Champion? You want entertainment right? Why? Because you are bored? Is being bored a conscious decision you made? Is being horny,hungry,tired,depressed also a conscious decision to you people?

You are here because of something you have no control over. Your brain told you *Hey, I'm understimulated! You lazy bum do something about it!* So you did and here you are. Nothing you do on here is really a free will choice then. You are just trying to make your master(brain) happy. In fact it's this process of emotions and feelings that drive every action we do and you have no control over it!

Yeah, and I could have played any number of games on my steam account or come here due to being bored. Why did I come here? Why did I choose this topic to post in? There being a reason for a choice does not mean there was no choice.

Take some chemistry courses and tell me how reactants are sentient.

So following your logic, we aren't even sentient?

[Rukentuts]

And I as a aggregated Bag of chemicals tell those chemicals what to do, by choice, free will choice, and so do you with your chemical bag.

Yeah, you're incapable of understanding basic chemistry; therefore there's no further point wasting my time.

[Deleted]

But I decided to enter in this particular website, in this particular thread. Also, who am "I" if I'm not my brain?

Yeah, and I could have played any number of games on my steam account or come here due to being bored. Why did I come here? Why did I choose this topic to post in? There being a reason for a choice does not mean there was no choice.

Yes, sure you get to choose which medium you would like to stimulate your brain with, but you can't free will yourself to not be bored in the first place, can you?

[nameuser]

hell if I went back 10 years... I certainly would make some different choices based off what I know now.

No because if everything was the same you wouldn't have any memory of having lived 10 years later. You would be the exact same person as you were.

[Hraklea]

...you can't free will yourself to not be bored in the first place.

And that's not the definition of free will either.

[Dezerte]

Two things really.

1) If free will isn't available and the world is fully deterministic, then our entire justice system is very hypocritical. As how can you punish someone for committing a crime they never had any choice but to do.

2) Reading this thread shows how egotistical human beings really are. It's always MY choice, stop and think for a moment how much of your life is actually determined by you.

Are you eating your dinner because it's what you wanted or because of what was on offer at the supermarket?
What car are you driving? Is it the one you want, or the one you can afford?
What job are you in? Is it the one you want, or the best that you could find?
Is your spouse/partner your one true love or simply a person who's life coincided with yours and someone who shares similar values?
The list is pretty endless, everything in your entire life depended on the decisions of other people at some point in time.

Which leads me to believe in either
a) all of this is predictable in accordance with physical laws and we are in a deterministic world. see above re: justice system

b) Much more enjoyable would be that we have free will, but it is not one of the individual but that of our collective choices. Everything everyone does matters, and as such that force can be controlled. Potentially for the benefit of whole humankind, but as evidenced by dehydration, starvation, poverty, illness, death and general misery, it seems as a race we feel its much more beneficial for ~0-1% of humanity to reap the benefits of what millions have sown.

Free will is a illusion. Not realizing that it is so is not odd, and realizing it is so doesn't break the illusion either. But, understanding that free will does not exist gives you a better understanding of why people are different from you. Or did everyone else just choose to be stupid, while you chose to be intelligent?

Go read my post history, last 5-6 posts in this thread. It's all explained there.