Free Will

[Dezerte]

We still don't fully understand how or why people make decisions. There are chemical and environmental influences to people, but on a molecular or even fully cellular level we have very little idea what signals in the brain even mean. Consider this the "agnostic" theory, but for all we know there's a magic genie in everyone's brain not bound by reality making decisions for us.

Ehm, we actually do know quite a bit. We know that genes play a small part, but more importantly that the environmental factors play a huge part. We can accurately show correlations between certain environmental conditions to certain behaviors.

[nameuser]

That nano second chemical reaction in your brain that led to the electrical signal to pulse through your nervous system to your muscles was controlled by one thing and one thing alone... your mind.

But where do you think that idea came from? I assume you're talking about doing "random" stuff to "prove" that we have free will. But you're doing it exactly because of that, so it's also logical. Again you are having the illusion of free will.

[Dezerte]

People are indeed the products of their surroundings and environmental factors, but that is a very large spectrum to look at and you moulded by much more intricate things that that. Someone in Alaska would grow up differently with their surroundings than someone in florida.

Likewise there would still be very subtle differences between you and the kid at the end of the street, not as diverse as florida and alaska but not the same.

I don't see where you're disagreeing with me.

[Hiricine]

Ehm, we actually do know quite a bit. We know that genes play a small part, but more importantly that the environmental factors play a huge part. We can accurately show correlations between certain environmental conditions to certain behaviors.

You're absolutely right, we do know quite a bit about why people make decisions, but what we know is basically just statistics and correlations, like you said. Ultimately though, there are probably a great many more things we don't know, though they might only play a small part in decision making. Correlation is not causation, and until we know much more than we do currently we have no idea what actually causes people to behave the way they do.

[Deleted]

I don't see where you're disagreeing with me.

I agree with one part (the fact that your decisions and life are shaped by your surroundings) but I am disagreeing that this would cause everyone to be the same, surroundings differ with location, even if its just down the street.

[Deleted]

I have a bottle of water at my table. You tell me if I should take a sip or not and I will do so. Then it won't be my brain making decisions for me, but me choosing to do what you suggest.

[Dezerte]

You're absolutely right, we do know quite a bit about why people make decisions, but what we know is basically just statistics and correlations, like you said. Ultimately though, there are probably a great many more things we don't know, though they might only play a small part in decision making. Correlation is not causation, and until we know much more than we do currently we have no idea what actually causes people to behave the way they do.

We know about causes as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

Also relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

We can also now use genetics to map our DNA (but DNA plays a much smaller part in the shaping of our personalities).

[Mayhem]

I agree with one part (the fact that your decisions and life are shaped by your surroundings) but I am disagreeing that this would cause everyone to be the same, surroundings differ with location, even if its just down the street.

you should reread what he wrote

[Dezerte]

I agree with one part (the fact that your decisions and life are shaped by your surroundings) but I am disagreeing that this would cause everyone to be the same, surroundings differ with location, even if its just down the street.

That's not what I said though, I said if free will existed we would all be the same.

[Deleted]

But where do you think that idea came from? I assume you're talking about doing "random" stuff to "prove" that we have free will. But you're doing it exactly because of that, so it's also logical. Again you are having the illusion of free will.

Nope a random decision is a random decision, if someone made that decision on the basis of proving the point I made it wouldn't be random and therefore would not prove the point. People make random decisions every day for no reason or cause at all. Its these random choices alone that I believe are free will as there is no controlling factors for making them. Of course this means that for every other decision we make in life that has a logical reason, free will does not apply as it is controlled by a need, so I agree with you there.



---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 02:45 PM ----------

That's not what I said though, I said if free will existed we would all be the same.

I apologise, I misread what you wrote :P

[Mayhem]

Nope a random decision is a random decision, if someone made that decision on the basis of proving the point I made it wouldn't be random and therefore would not prove the point. People make random decisions every day for no reason or cause at all. Its these random choices alone that I believe are free will as there is no controlling factors for making them.

yeah you can´t explain free will by free will... decisions aren´t random, that´s the whole point

[Dezerte]

Another question to those who believe in free will, and forgive me it might sound rude but I'm just trying to make you realize something;

If you believe in free will, how can you have empathy? (everyone has a different level of empathy, but we all have it (except psychopaths possibly))

[nameuser]

Nope a random decision is a random decision, if someone made that decision on the basis of proving the point I made it wouldn't be random and therefore would not prove the point. People make random decisions every day for no reason or cause at all. Its these random choices alone that I believe are free will as there is no controlling factors for making them. Of course this means that for every other decision we make in life that has a logical reason, free will does not apply as it is controlled by a need, so I agree with you there.

So you're saying sometimes we have free will and sometimes we don't? How can that be possible? There's no way our decisions are random, even a decision like "pick a random city anywhere in the world". We don't understand how we make that decision, so it gives us the illusion of free will.

[Deleted]

yeah you can´t explain free will by free will... decisions aren´t random, that´s the whole point

And you can't tell me that you know 100% that every decision, every thought, every concious action that the entirety of the human race over the thousands of years that we have been on this planet has had a reason behind doing it.

Most of them if not almost all of them do, and they are controlled by the laws that we ourselves can not control.

[Mayhem]

And you can't tell me that you know 100% that every decision, every thought, every concious action that the entirety of the human race over the thousands of years that we have been on this planet has had a reason behind doing it.

Most of them if not almost all of them do, and they are controlled by the laws that we ourselves can not control.

well define for absolut certainty a random decision that is not based on anything else but randomness