Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Raiju]

Last I checked the mother can do that once she's been "abandoned" by the father.

People keep asserting the only options an "abandoned" mother has is abortion or to raise the child herself in a life of poverty and squalor, when that isn't so.

Except that's entirely unrelated if one parent is attempting to keep the child, like in *EVERY CASE MENTIONED*

[mistuhbull]

Except that's entirely unrelated if one parent is attempting to keep the child, like in *EVERY CASE MENTIONED*

If they want to keep it, they can deal with their own decisions. The discussion is being framed that a man severing himself from the child is forcing a woman to abort or have to take care of the baby on her own, which is just plain not true

[Cybran]

you are confusing "rights" with "the same surgeries". the right is to decide what you can do with your body. everyone can decide what to do with their penises or vaginas.

they get choices regarding their vaginas.

Like arguing with a brick wall. Women have all the options and all the legal leverages. Men have nothing at the moment, only responsibilities.

[starlord]

If they want to keep it, they can deal with their own decisions. The discussion is being framed that a man severing himself from the child is forcing a woman to abort or have to take care of the baby on her own, which is just plain not true

im arguing from the perspective that she would like to keep it.

[Grizzly Willy]

im arguing from the perspective that she would like to keep it.

She can keep it. Just not with help from the (former) male partner. Whether or not she can provide for it isn't his concern.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

you are confusing "rights" with "the same surgeries". the right is to decide what you can do with your body. everyone can decide what to do with their penises or vaginas.

they get choices regarding their vaginas.

You are over simplifying what an abortion is even about. They get to kill the child, because they don't feel like raising it. A man has no option equal to this.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 05:19 PM ----------

im arguing from the perspective that she would like to keep it.

This is where its fucked up and sexist. Her wanting to keep it takes precedence over the man. Her wants supersedes his. Its gender bias, which is sexism.

[starlord]

Like arguing with a brick wall. Women have all the options and all the legal leverages. Men have nothing at the moment, only responsibilities.

idk, keep arguing that its unfair women carry babies and men dont. if we were like seahorses im sure you would complain how you have to do all the work & be at the mercy of deadbeat females.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

idk, keep arguing that its unfair women carry babies and men dont. if we were like seahorses im sure you would complain how you have to do all the work & be at the mercy of deadbeat females.

No, I wouldn't. I would have the option to abort if I felt l like it. Carrying the child would be 100% my choice.

[starlord]

She can keep it. Just not with help from the male partner. Whether or not she can provide for it isn't his concern.

which then puts pressure on her to abort or struggle to provide for it.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

which then puts pressure on her to abort or struggle to provide for it.

Sorry, i will use your logic. She willingly had sex, and knew the risk.

At least she has a choice in the matter.

[starlord]

You are over simplifying what an abortion is even about. They get to kill the child, because they don't feel like raising it. A man has no option equal to this.

because theres no way to provide an equal option.

This is where its fucked up and sexist. Her wanting to keep it takes precedence over the man. Her wants supersedes his. Its gender bias, which is sexism.

her control over her body supersedes his, yes. likewise she cant tell him what to do with his.

[Grizzly Willy]

which then puts pressure on her to abort or struggle to provide for it.

She knew the risks going into it before having sex, right?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Yes she can. Choosing to keep the baby and demanding child support = demanding he work to pay for her and her child.


Again, her choice supersedes his desire, which is sexism.

[starlord]

Sorry, i will use your logic. She willingly had sex, and knew the risk.

At least she has a choice in the matter.

yeah, if the day ever comes that men can walk out on their kids without making up for it, it would be on her for her choice to risk it.

[Grizzly Willy]

Nobody's taking my contract thing seriously. It would eliminate any confusion on this topic by having the couple define the terms before getting involved. If you don't you're subject to standard laws regarding child support.

[Kurioxan]

because theres no way to provide an equal option.
her control over her body supersedes his, yes. likewise she cant tell him what to do with his.

True, however, regardless of who carries the child, the child is of both's parents, and it should be the decision of both.
But i do think the guy needs to be careful, so many contraceptives and considering female cycles it is actually fairly hard to get pregnant.

If she forces the pregnancy (ie, faking taking the pill, puncturing condoms) its all on her tbh, if it was an accident i believe its up to both, sadly this is where it becomes hard.

If the guy wants the kid but she doesnt, he has to provide care for it, but then one can argue that its her who go through 9 months.
If the guy doesnt want it but she does, well he is screwed, i do believe he should have the option to opt-out of support if he clearly states he does NOT want the child but she wants it, then its up to who wants the kid to support it.

Anyway you are having quite a lot of fun arent ya? ya have been fighting people for the past 2, 3...? days?

[starlord]

Yes she can. Choosing to keep the baby and demanding child support = demanding he work to pay for her and her child.

its not her demanding, its the government saying he has parental responsibilities.

Again, her choice supersedes his desire, which is sexism.

he chose to put it in her and potentially impregnate her. he consented, if you will.

[Forfax]

yeah, if the day ever comes that men can walk out on their kids without making up for it, it would be on her for her choice to risk it.

You seem to negligate the first option.
She has the choice to keep the child or not to begin with , right there the man as no choice in the matter , it ENTIRELY HER choice.
Why should the man pay 18years of child support to a child that he did not want to begin with?

Why should it be HER choice and the man does not have a SINGLE words in the matter?
for a mistake that BOTH parties has done.

[starlord]

Nobody's taking my contract thing seriously. It would eliminate any confusion on this topic by having the couple define the terms before getting involved. If you don't you're subject to standard laws regarding child support.

well because that would indicate that both parties bear responsibility for their actions. it would also require a significant time investment, which would put a damper on heat of the moment things (i think those are the main concern).

add to that many women would simply not accept such a contract and find someone who wouldnt use it. it doesnt speak very highly of ones relationship to say "i wont help you if you get pregnant."

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

its not her demanding, its the government saying he has parental responsibilities.

he chose to put it in her and potentially impregnate her. he consented, if you will.

No, you do not have to ask for child support at all.

Yes, and she chose to let him, they both consent, and both should consent to raise a child. If she would not want to raise it alone, she can abort the child.