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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agile Emily View Post
    No, I'm talking personal preference. My first ever character was a warlock, but I lost interest due to not really liking pet classes. To this day, I've never gotten a hunter above level 14.

    With Sacrifice, I can play a warlock to my heart's content, not having to bother with minions.
    You should be picking sacrifice because you don't want to handle pet management, not because it yields the highest damage.

    In terms of "difficulty" in getting optimal DPS from the 3 talents it is clear that the difficulty goes: Service > Supremacy > Sacrifice.

    Then it obviously makes the most sense that the DPS gain awarded for playing properly should follow the above list. Of course if you are unable to use that extra cooldown optimally, or not controling your pet properly, you should be penalized more than someone who picked sacrifice.

    The DPS difference should only be marginal i.e 2-5%, but still enough to reward skillful play.

  2. #22
    Sac is fine, I hate when people say "you're a warlock you HAVE to use a pet". Lorewise if a warlock could sacrifice a minion for more power they'd do it in a second. In a perfect world all grimoires would come out equal, I still think it makes sense to have one spec that benefits from sac most. One spec that curves towards supremacy and another service.. I know that steers away from preference a bit.

    If anything sac needs to be pushed away from two specs using it. I think it adds more flavor to demo being THE pet spec, afflic not so much.. if anything i'd like to see destro use fel imp maybe, I never minded a ranged pet so much. I like how service is bursty, I think that makes it a bit more situational. Supremacy needs a little love thats all.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    You should be picking sacrifice because you don't want to handle pet management, not because it yields the highest damage.

    In terms of "difficulty" in getting optimal DPS from the 3 talents it is clear that the difficulty goes: Service > Supremacy > Sacrifice.

    Then it obviously makes the most sense that the DPS gain awarded for playing properly should follow the above list. Of course if you are unable to use that extra cooldown optimally, or not controling your pet properly, you should be penalized more than someone who picked sacrifice.

    The DPS difference should only be marginal i.e 2-5%, but still enough to reward skillful play.
    You think hitting a button on a burn phase is harder gameplay than maximizing MG uptime? Sac rewards player skill more than the other two by a significant margin.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    You think hitting a button on a burn phase is harder gameplay than maximizing MG uptime? Sac rewards player skill more than the other two by a significant margin.
    But wouldn't you be casting MG anyway? I would.

  5. #25
    I like supremacy because I'm such a pig, so I use it to stare at the shivarra's posteriors.

    nah, just kidding

    I like both supremacy and service, because I've always enjoyed the summoner archetype, so being able to choose between summoning more or summoning better sounds cool to me. I don't care about sims, I play what I want

    but I tend to have some bias towards supremacy because the wrathguard sounds really cool

    sacrifice is too mean for me. I mean, I summon the guy, than I kill him to make myself stronger, isn't that sort of a jerk move? lol
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-01-18 at 11:42 PM.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  6. #26
    The only thing I want to say is that when someone wants to play petless Warlock and another responds with " Then play a mage" is a pathetic and pointless argument. The talents promised the power of choice and it has to be that way in order to be fine. Switch between grimoires whenever I want with only situational exceptions.

    I am personally a sacrifice guy, thats it.

    I would be more in favor of pets if enslave worked as hunter's tame and we could enslave abberations as well.

  7. #27
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortune Cookie View Post
    I agree that 'default vs situational' is poor design and I expect Blizzard would agree too. But I don't think the idea of situational talents as such is flawed.

    To my mind, there are 2 basic ways of making a talent tier interesting (which is of course the declared design goal): a choice based on 'pure preference' and a choice based on 'non-obvious performance'. These concepts correspond to the two basic questions: "what do you like better?" and "what do you think works better?"

    'Pure preference' is about the mode of execution without having a significant impact on output: e.g. different rotational abilities that all contribute the same overall dps (harder said than done, I know) or proactive style (cooldown stacking) vs reactive style (reacting to procs and appropriate use/pooling of resources).

    In contrast, a choice based on 'non-obvious perfomance' is one where the aim is simple to state (minimising expected time to kill boss) but the 'correct' answer is hard to figure out. This is essentially the 'situational' tier, but imo this can be an interesting choice provided that the best talent depends on player skill, raid comp and allocation of tasks within the raid as well as the encounter. (Otherwise you can just look up the correct answer, removing the fun of working it out for yourself.)

    The key point is not to mix these two ideas: e.g. if one talent in a 'preference' tier is just plain better, players will complain that they can't pick the talent that makes gameplay more fun for them. Likewise, if one talent in a 'performance' tier has a profound impact on gameplay (different rotation, pet/no pet ...) players may want to pick it because of that and then get annoyed that they lose out in situations when other talents would (for them) be better.

    IMO that explains the problems with the Grimoires. Sacrifice has a fundamental impact on gameplay: is affects how the class feels and plays and triggers emotive responses ("I dig this" vs "locks without demons are just emo mages"). This makes it a 'preference' talent and should be picked because a players likes playing petless and not because it does more dps. However, it's paired with a talent that is more situational and has much less of an impact on how the class plays/feels (people love or hate pets, but I can't imagine anyone saying that the ability to have a second demon every once in a while totally changed the way they see locks, wow and life in general). Players who love the pet-less style will get annoyed if they have to pick Service for a Spine-type fight where burst-dps is of paramount importance.

    Supremacy is just a plain bad talent imo: "do you want cooler demons?" is not an interesting question. The baseline demons should be as cool as Blizzard can make them. Supremacy is indirectly interesting because of Sacrifice, but that's not enough to make it an overall good tier.
    Sorry your post got caught in the spam filter. It sometimes happens with long posts on accounts with low post counts.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I actually think Service was mostly intended to be utility-based, rather than burst. Aside from Demonology's Felguard the Service pets really don't offer much damage, at least not any more than the other two Grimoires do.

    Unfortunately that means it ends up only really being used in PVP, but even then most people seem to prefer the passive damage from Supremacy & Sacrifice, which to be honest is far superior.
    What? Supremecy isn't "far superior" than service for Demo. And having 2 pets is a dps cooldown.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 03:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    The only thing I want to say is that when someone wants to play petless Warlock and another responds with " Then play a mage" is a pathetic and pointless argument. The talents promised the power of choice and it has to be that way in order to be fine. Switch between grimoires whenever I want with only situational exceptions.

    I am personally a sacrifice guy, thats it.

    I would be more in favor of pets if enslave worked as hunter's tame and we could enslave abberations as well.
    Saying that an argument is "pathetic" is pathetic. Learn to not use hyperbole. "Pathetic" the newest internet buzzword.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
    I use Sacrifice, always, because I play Destro (and ONLY Destro) and it's very liberating to not have to deal with a pet. Couple that with Kil'jaeden's Cunning and hory shet locks are actually fun again!
    how can it be fun to be at the bottom of the meters? :S

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Saying that an argument is "pathetic" is pathetic. Learn to not use hyperbole. "Pathetic" the newest internet buzzword.
    Ah okay, just because you are not in good terms with the wording means that everyone who likes to have a choice should quit raiding or if he like sacrifice to go play a Mage. Logic disagrees and I can see no hyperbole. Just because some players prefer a specific aspect of a class does not make them players of another class.

    It is like saying that a Druid who like a specific spec more over others should play class dedicated to that. (eg. feral->rogue or balance->mage)

  11. #31
    Pit Lord Ferg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    how can it be fun to be at the bottom of the meters? :S
    Normally I'm in the top 5 or so in LFR which is all I care about this tier. I'm done with raiding on a schedule for a while, did enough of that with Heroic progression in Cataclysm, sorta taking a break. Also Destruction might be lowest dps but it's definitely the most fun spec to play, at least for me (I tend to play specs / classes with high burst mechanics, go fig)
    ill probably be infracted for this post

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    (I have a sneaking suspicion from reading the forums extensively since beta that players actually balk a little if there is no choice between certain things and they have to choose themselves. The community has brain washed itsself into thinking there's always a best choice and you should keep asking till someone better then you tells you what it is)
    Strongly agree with you here. If Sac provided a theoretical simulated 5 DPS increase compared to Serv/Sup, this info would eventually make its way through the game as "Take Sac, it's higher DPS." Most locks without it would be berated for needing to "L2P." Yes, I prefer Sac just for its simplicity, but I switch when appropriate, such as for our HM WotE attempts.

    To their credit, Blizzard took away the cookie-cutter talent system and tried to give us real choices. I think it's revealed that a lot of players liked having their hand held and being told what to do.

    Service does seem a little weak, though I can't say what the actual numbers are. Just can't think of a spot where I've thought "Man, I really wish I had that extra 2min burst CD." Also, KJC works very strongly with Sac for allowing so much more MG and Haunt time.

    Side question, are there spawn problems with pets on Gara'jal? Figure Serv/Sup would be preferable, unless the pets despawn when I go to Spirit Realm.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I mean, "situational" is quite nebulous, and could be applied to any of the three Grimoires to justify perceived or genuine weakness:
    - Supremacy could be for high movement/high RNG fights with high player downtime on bosses or where cooldown management is awkward.
    - Service could be for the "Spine", high burst requirement encounters
    - Sacrifice could be for the the Alysrazor or Valithria type encounters where pets are problematic (despawning) or need to move too much to be effective.
    That's the way I'd like to see it play out, unfortunately pets often end up being pretty problematic compared to a static damage boost, either via heavy movement / add switching, poor pathing or encounter design.

    Not sure how happy I am with the default pets only being tied to the "burst" talent, I miss my old pets.

    I do wish sacrifice wasn't the go-to talent though. Warlocks are a pet class, yes - sacrifice was around in the past, but outside of TBC destro, which I think we can all agree was a terrible design, warlocks have prettymuch always used a pet. At the moment sacrifice is both top dps, easiest to use AND bypasses any pet penalties.

  14. #34
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    how can it be fun to be at the bottom of the meters? :S
    Destro isn't bottom of the meters though, it's pretty average but has plenty of tools to exploit to bring it up, especially where cleaving is concerned. Mostly it appears low because Affliction (with Sac) is so much higher.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    That's the way I'd like to see it play out, unfortunately pets often end up being pretty problematic compared to a static damage boost, either via heavy movement / add switching, poor pathing or encounter design.

    Not sure how happy I am with the default pets only being tied to the "burst" talent, I miss my old pets.

    I do wish sacrifice wasn't the go-to talent though. Warlocks are a pet class, yes - sacrifice was around in the past, but outside of TBC destro, which I think we can all agree was a terrible design, warlocks have prettymuch always used a pet. At the moment sacrifice is both top dps, easiest to use AND bypasses any pet penalties.
    The real problem when everything is situational is, as I said that situational to the extremes of switching talents around isn't actually that common - certainly more common than switching specialisation - but switching every encounter isn't something they're shooting for and that's why there's a nominal cost in the form of a reagent. Your baseline talents are therefore intended to be to an extent a commitment, and therefore a preference, and preference is of course emotive. If one talent is therefore under most circumstances significantly and noticably 'better' than the one 'you like', then it sucks, but on the other hand if it's demonstrably 'the best' then I understand defending it so you don't get nerfed/other buffed and feel compelled to switch.

    As demonstrated below...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    You think hitting a button on a burn phase is harder gameplay than maximizing MG uptime? Sac rewards player skill more than the other two by a significant margin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    But wouldn't you be casting MG anyway? I would.
    The argument from both sides of Sac is essentially thus:
    - Pets make it easy because they offer 'autoattack' baseline damage that will reduce the impact of errors.
    - Pets are hard because they require additional management.

    I think it works out pretty even because without pet management you're less likely to make mistakes in the first place.

  15. #35
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    the problem is that blizz wanted the grimoire talents to be chosen depending on the fights and then they failed to make them equal, so GoSac ended up being mandatory for destro and afflic with demo being the only spec with an actual choice. this seems to change a bit in 5.2 with nerfs to GoSac and buffs to GoSup(if we are to believe ghostcrawler) which is nice, as ive always had the opinion that certain specs should be using pets and certain specs shouldnt. ive always thought that destro should mainly be saccing their spec for more power, afflic should be using GoSup and demo should be using mainly GoServ or GoSup, as i think those grimoire talents fits best to the specs but atm afflic is basically forced into GoSac bcoz it is simply better than anything else for them and the same goes for destro. i dont like the idea of picking a talent based on the situation, i prefer picking my talents based on what i think fits the spec better or preferance.

  16. #36
    Most of the imbalance with these grimoire talents often circles back to one key point - Demonology's minions scale with mastery, while Affliction and Destruction's do not.
    Back when dot snapshotting was a thing, I wrote this piece of junk.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Keldion View Post
    Most of the imbalance with these grimoire talents often circles back to one key point - Demonology's minions scale with mastery, while Affliction and Destruction's do not.
    This! Simply let Mastery: Potent Afflictions and Mastery: Emberstorm increase pet damage as Mastery: Master Demonologist already does and everything will be fine.

    Edit: Demonology will still have Felguards higher pet damage to distinguish itself from the Afflitction and Destruction.
    Last edited by luckydevours; 2013-01-20 at 01:08 AM.

  18. #38
    Deleted
    I just use whatever suits the boss I'm fighting. Like, GoSac on Elegon HC for some Fire and Brimstone Immolate and incinerates on the sparks etc.
    I love using the GoSup with a Shivara on Blade Lord or any other single target fights because I find her to do great damage and I love that her Bladedance is 20 yards.

    All grimoires are good I recon, just use whatever one you find the most fun. Having really fun often increases the DPS substantially I've found.

    EDIT: I play destruction on like 9/10 fights because it's great!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    This! Simply let Mastery: Potent Afflictions and Mastery: Emberstorm increase pet damage as Mastery: Master Demonologist already does and everything will be fine.

    Edit: Demonology will still have Felguards higher pet damage to distinguish itself from the Afflitction and Destruction.
    you cant really do that tho, bcoz if you do that then they would have to make all the mastery for each spec the same. Master demonologist is as unique to demonology as potent afflictions is unique to afflic and changing that would make mastery utterly pointless and just for the record, if you actually did this, GoSup would be as mandatory for any spec as GoSac is for afflic and destro, even more so, and you'll be right back where you started and nothing would have changed. Blizz' intention with the grimoire talents is to make them equal, so that you can take them by preference or which is best situationally based on the encounter. doing what you mention luckydevours, would seriously hinder this, just as GoSac does now. in hindsight, it might have been better to have made each grimoire unique to a spec.
    Last edited by mmoca748dddcc2; 2013-01-21 at 10:50 AM.

  20. #40
    A more simplified fix would be to make Demonology Mastery scale with GoSac.

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