I think people are underestimating how bad the Warrior nerfs actually are.

[Dristereau]

Right, I currently play Rogue, Mage, Paladin and Warrior in PVP at the moment, so I have some experience with a few characters. Warriors are definitely the most powerful melee character I have, with Second Wind and Defensive Stance meaning they have better healing that a Ret in 5.0/5.1, but the buffs to Ret Healing in PVP Should fix that. Rogues are becoming godmode now, Cloak and Dagger is insane IMO, they aren't a great class now but they get the job done with gear, I don't think they need all the buffs they do for PVP. Mage has a nerf or two, so slightly more normal now, having also had the Frost Bomb and other nerfs since 5.0.

In terms of Warriors, the Defensive Stance for Arms/Fury is justified. It was the combination of Defensive Stance and Second Wind that gave Warriors such suvivability. Same with the Shockwave nerf, which made that Talent Tier mandatory for PVP generally. In terms of the changes to TFB and Overpower in 5.2, I think that's pretty odd personally. The overpower rage cost is pretty cruel, but I can't judge it in too much detail the changes to Slam, Heroic Strike and Overpower. The obnly issue Warrior have IMO is cooldown stacking. As a Warrior, you pop things and things die. That sums up how stupid I think Avatar/Recklessness/Skull Banner/Trinket are together. I like the Cooldowns, but stacking them is fairly OP IMO. Removing recklessness and increasing MS damage could be an idea which would improve sustained, which I would like.

[Hand Banana]

I pretty much agree with all of this. Everyone keeps saying how good warriors are right now but arent even attempting to look into the future of 5.2. WE GET THEY ARE STRONG NOW, but they arent going to be in 5.2.

Blizzard either needs to scrap warrior stances (make battle give 10% passive DR) or make them more meaningful. Im so tired of all these random stance changes that arent making an sense. Either give us a a point in switching stances in a meaningful way, or make us sit in battle stance permanently and essentially remove D stance, do one or the other.

[Illiterate]

They deserve to be dogshit after being so OP since the beginning of mop. Shockwave should not even be an arms/fury ability, even with the nerfs.

[Deleted]

Cata times are rolling in. I thought you warriors got used to being nerfed over and over.

Besides, dks, rets, ferals and rogues have shit survivability without a healer so what makes warriors think they should have much better survivability with passive 25% damage reduction at very little penalty AND passive very strong self heal hot ?! I wish my old dk had some shit like that.

[Hallu]

Basically what I'm trying to explain is that Warriors can't kite melee.

Question. Why do you feel the need to be able to kite melee while playing a Warrior?

[Yvaelle]

Warriors are horrendously overpowered right now, in 3's, it would take 66-75% of warriors suddenly falling below 2200 to bring them down to a 'balanced' representation. They currently make up 20% of all players above 2200, despite being just 3% of the population - the only time a class has had more disproportionate representation is season 5 DKs. Nothing short of Colossal nerfs will bring warriors back down from the stratosphere to which they currently belong. So - I have to disagree with the OP on this one - warriors are receiving huge nerfs - but they will still probably be one of the best represented melee specs in 3s after the nerfs.

[Reith]

You're overreacting. If anything, Blizzard has to nerf them not just for the sake of balance, but to deter the FOTM rerollers. If they end up being overly nerfed, I don't think they'd stay that way for very long.

[Deleted]

Only thing over the top is the no second wind while stunned everything else was warranted nerfs. You shouldn't be able to just have passive 25% dmg reduction that barely does anything to your dmg. On top the best passive healing and some of the best active cd's.

So if I understanding you want to trade 12sec charge for 115% movement? Rogues get 115% but can only get 24sec gap closer. The only melee with a "spammable" snare over 50% is dk's and thats not very spammable.

This is what happens when you have a class that was given the answer to everything in 5.0. They spread the nerfs over months but most of the things warriors have should have never made it out of beta.

One of things I hear from warriors is "I just get trained to death without being able to sit in defensive stance and do dmg now". Welcome to what everyone else has had to deal with all mop. Once active cd's are down you are dead just like everyone else. Now that they've brought warrior defense inline hopefully we can get a buff to res going to lower everyone's dmg.

this one speaks true. And I'm getting kinda sick of meeting 3-4 arms warriors on the enemy team every single battleground that just take forever to kill due to brainless passive defenses on top of shockwave/disarm/fear or instantgib you when they activate their swifty oneshot macro because you just used your stun in hopes of landing a kill and failed. And if everything else fails, heroic leap out of range of any gap closer. It's just tiresome right now

[savvasp]

Wall of text.

And no Warriors will still be top tier melee in arena in 5.2.

Wasn't a wall of text, and thank you for your amazing input on why Warriors will be the best melee in 5.2

OT: The nerfs are way too harsh, overpower and second wind mostly. Lets not forget all the buffs other classes are getting

[Hand Banana]

WE GET THEY ARE STRONG NOW.

I hate quoting myself but people are too stuck on the idea of wars being overpowered right now to look ahead.

Think about it: Second wind nerfed, defensive stance nerfed, shockwave nerfed, TfB and in turn HS nerfed, overpower nerfed, heroic leap damage nerfed, and no real buffs to talk about.

Now think about this: Rogues buffed massively, monks buffed massively, rets buffed, dks buffed, hybrids buffed, and im sure im missing someone else who is getting buffed in 5.2.

You cant say that multiple nerfs to a single class while numerous other classes getting buffed wont kill wars. At the very best wars will be slightly underpowered is my prediction.

[Softbottom]

I wish alot of the warrior stuff was fixed in mop beta when they were actually testing this stuff. The warrior I played when MOP launched vs the warrior I'm going to play is going to be completely different. From 5.0 to 5.1 it was already different when all the patches to their abilities happened. This isn't a defend warriors to the death post on my sake I love my warrior and some of the nerfs were needed. What bugs me is why couldn't they have figured this shit out in beta? Isn't that what beta is for? To not release broken shit? The nerfs overall don't bug me it's the fact that the way the class plays will have changed entirely over 2 patches spanning 4 months or so. That seems kinda retarded.

[meathead]

I hate quoting myself but people are too stuck on the idea of wars being overpowered right now to look ahead.

Think about it: Second wind nerfed, defensive stance nerfed, shockwave nerfed, TfB and in turn HS nerfed, overpower nerfed, heroic leap damage nerfed, and no real buffs to talk about.

Now think about this: Rogues buffed massively, monks buffed massively, rets buffed, dks buffed, hybrids buffed, and im sure im missing someone else who is getting buffed in 5.2.

You cant say that multiple nerfs to a single class while numerous other classes getting buffed wont kill wars. At the very best wars will be slightly underpowered is my prediction.

more warrior nerfs on the main page of mmo.blizz reverted the buffs to haste and mastery and nerfed op,again.now if ms misses we do not get an op proc,lmfao.warriors one bad nerf away from cata style!

and to add to the rogue buffs-there pvp glove bon add +%1 to recup.

[MORGATH99]

warriors were born broken in wow so no surprise hope blizz ever realize what are they doing to one of the most iconic class the rgp have the one were all the others melee classes are born to

[Orbitus]

I think all hunters would like to have a word with you. We had 1 good spec this season until they overnerfed stampede. A bug was fixed so it didn't go through resilience then they nerfed the damage. Want to cry about healing? At least you have some sort of heal besides second wind. IE: Bloodthirst and Victory rush. Hunters have a 30% heal on a 2 min cd or 2% regen every 2 seconds or Chimera shot. But who plays marks? Yeah thats right no one cuz the damage from marks is basically a mosquito to everyone not just plate wearers. When you can sit in defensive stance and still kill people its not that hard to pvp as a warrior.

[Deleted]

Warriors are known to be a whiny commnity to say the least. Statistically warriors have been a top pvp class trough out the history of wow.

Warriors needs to be tuned down in order to balance the game and make it for everyone. The nerfs will only bring the warriors down a little but they will still be "an above avarage" pvp class.

Alot of the people playing warrior are FOTM rerollers that basicly only plays the class to be overpowered. These people will whine the most when nerfs are coming.

It all makes sense.

[Hallu]

Warriors are known to be a whiny commnity to say the least.
Alot of the people playing warrior are FOTM rerollers -snip-. These people will whine the most when nerfs are coming.

It all makes sense.

This however, doesnt.

[Deleted]

You will be fine, I know getting nerfed and everyone else buffed sucks, but just deal with it, you will still be fucking annoying bursty stunningly strong in 5.2

[kleinlax21]

Anyway, Defensive Stance in 5.2 will only be used if the Warrior is going to die because of the rage cost from Overpower that didn't exist in 5.1.

And all was right in the world.

Seriously, can't believe you are even complaining about Defensive Stance moving to situational defensive usage instead the primary stance in PvP. Kind of boggles my mind how you don't think such a change is good for the class and makes sense.

As far as the general nerfs go, Second Wind still heals for the same. Now, you're just a more susceptible target for a stun to be used on. And a loss in ten percent damage reduction, while a heavy nerf, will be offset by the increased damage dealing capability you have when using Battle Stance. Y'all were a difficult kill target as it stands, now you're a viable one. I still don't think you guys will be as delicate as DK's are currently. The following is why I think that is the case:

Blood Presense provides additional armor (the equivalent of a shield) and 8% damage reduction. A DK can cast about 6-8 Death Strikes a minute that heal 7% of max health. (.07 x 8) / 60 = .0093 percent of max healing done per second. Taking Battle Fatigue into account, that's a total healing per second amount of (.0093 x .70) = .0065 percent.

Keep in mind, a DK has to sacrifice 1 Obliterate per 1 Death Strike used, as both attacks have the same resource cost. Obliterate's damage is 230% weapon damage plus 12.5 % damage per disease on target (Frost uses 2 diseases at all times for a total of 25% damage increase, thus 287.5% damage is expected). Death Strike's damage is 185% plus 499.

In short, we sacrifice about 100% weapon damage for every Death Strike we use, which is approximately 2 Mastery procs as Arms at 55% weapon damage apiece. So, consider this fact that we sacrifice this damage to sit in a defensive stance that completely neuters our damage through reduced Runic Power generated, increased Runic Power cost of Frost Strike, and removes the benefit of a lessened CC duration we get from Frost Presence, all for .65% healing done per second.

Warriors, however, have 3% healing per second from Second Wind. With Battle Fatigue, this number drops to (.70 x .03) = .021 percent of life healed per second. However, Second Wind got nerfed to not be active during stuns. So, how long would a Warrior who is constantly below 35% life (full uptime on Second Wind) need to be stunned in order for the 2.1% number to drop down to a DK's HPS of .65%? (.065 x 60) = 39% healed over 1 min. for a DK. (.39 / .021) = 18.66 seconds of Second Wind uptime per minute as a result of stuns. You need to be stunned for a full 41 seconds per minute in order to have the same healing per second done from a passive talent, when compared to a DK's active healing that requires a great deal of damage sacrificed and constant uptime on target.

At the same time, Warriors will be benefitting from 15% damage reduction, compared to 8% damage reduction as a DK. Assuming both a Warrior and a DK will have around 70-73% damage reduction from Resilience come 5.2, a both will have (100 - 71.5) = 28.5% damage taken from all attacks. A Warrior will have (28.5 x (1 - .15)) = 24.22% damage taken come 5.2, whereas without the 10% stance nerf, they would have (28.5 x (1 - .25) = 21.38% damage reduction, for a difference in (24.22 - 21.38) = 2.84% damage taken increase. A 10% nerf, because of Resilience, is actually only 2.84%. Just for reference purposes, a DK will take (28.5 x (1 - .08)) = 26.22% damage taken in Blood Presence, which is less damage reduction.

I'm not saying DK's are UP or OP, nor am I saying that Warriors will be OP or UP come 5.2. However, I am saying that this myth of warrior survivability going belly-up is complete garbage if you look at the numbers behind the situation.

[Gatsu]

Kinda agree on the fact we are OP on live (not that much some ppl is trying to say btw, many teams over 2300 did their way before 5.1 nerfs and now they're just sitting there).
Shockwave is annoying (for others ofc :P), 20s CD is really dumb.
Charge stunning for 3s with Warbringer was dumb too, but now the talent is completely useless.
Defensive stance granting 25% damage reduction was too much, 15% is a better number.
Second wind not healing through stuns is kinda VERY bad, but they buffed the other 2 talents, so maybe Impending Victory could become the way to go against Rogue/Mage teams.

All those nerfs are acceptable, even though Warriors will lose a lot of control, and I would like to see 1min CD to Intimidating shout back at this point...

BUT

what really makes me sad, is the 10 rage cost on Overpower.
Really, guys, if you don't play a warrior, you can't understand how this change will fuck up our rage management.
Basically, you will have to stay in battle stance to generate enough rage to put pressure (that is ok), making Def stance a huge damage loss.
So, in the end, everything will be like: Train the warrior, force him defensive, let him do 0 pressure, s10-11 style.

[Softbottom]

BUT

what really makes me sad, is the 10 rage cost on Overpower.
Really, guys, if you don't play a warrior, you can't understand how this change will fuck up our rage management.
Basically, you will have to stay in battle stance to generate enough rage to put pressure (that is ok), making Def stance a huge damage loss.
So, in the end, everything will be like: Train the warrior, force him defensive, let him do 0 pressure, s10-11 style.

^ this. I guess we just have to wait until it's out to see how bad it really is.