I think people are underestimating how bad the Warrior nerfs actually are.

[Beefkow]

On all honestly, i agree 100% with OP, ever since the beginning of cata we have been a really op class, with 100% arp on demand for 6 sec.... but then when the nerf hit, it seemed warriors needed to mass weapon dmg all day and just try and wreck face. I liked the system back in wrath when you needed to ARP gem and try to obtain ARP gear/trinkets/weps to pull off dmg. The only bad part was the fact the you needed DBW (deathbringer's will) in order to be viable in pvp. But with the CS system and all of that, its just total BS and there can be billions of arguments bouncing off the walls about how 50% arp works out.

Honestly, i would rather choose to be a S5-S8 getting my butt kicked by dks rather than just being a bugged up class in MOP and not even worth playing. The stance dancing was what made warriors "warriors"...... OMG i miss intercept very much. Now its just no skill sit in defensive stance warriors only getting 1 rage every 3 secs in combat (10 rage from MS/enrage procs). And back in wotlk, you could actually kill people without popping bladestorm or popping cds, now its like you have to crit 24/7 if you want to bring down a person to 20% to finish them off with an unbalanced execute.

I also miss overelenting assault (overpower on cast to reduce heals/dmg by 50%) and the fact that overpower was a 1.0 GCD, now its a weak ability that is an on demand crit and total slows down our class. I miss wotlk big time, although dks were dominating and kicking out butts, but we had something special... we had to switch to berserker stance to pummel a cast time or we had to stance dance for this spell... etc etc. We charged back and forth stance to stance bouncing off of walls and throwing out dmg. It was fun and all, but apparently its time for a change.... The stances actually meant something to us, if you wanted ARP or to cast rend you would go battle. If you wanted to take dmg and gain more crit, go berserker and whirlwind to oblivion and intercept. Our current stances we have right now are completely boring and bring no meaning... i mean we get rage regen? thats all? There is a reason we go defensive stance 24/7, well for one we definitely get trained and for 2nd you still get rage but not as much.

To talk about this patch change.... i like some of the changes that are occuring but the most one that bothered me was the rage cost to overpower... i mean WTF? The ability is very weak, very slow and the crit just doesn't help, nor does the rage cost.... i mean ok thats fine now we have to sit in a worthless stance and take a beating or just get little rage (berserker stance doesn't give us alot of rage, even if were getting focused). Shockwave nerf is needed, we used the ability 24/7 and it really bothered people, i wish it was given to prots and a different talent was taken place. With warbringer taking place... i don't see why i should get this ability, ok... back to juggernaut? Our healing tier needed alot of help, 30 rage requirement on enraged regen does not help AT ALL. Impending victory is still not viable, and 2nd wind is still the clear choice. I ask of blizzard.... change 2nd wind back to the original weak heal instead of a stupid heal. I'd rather i heal 5% of my health over 10 sec rather than regenerating hp at a close execute range.

To summarize, our current play style is complete crap, its not balanced at all, our damage is WEAK outside of cooldowns and our stances bring no meaning to our class anymore, without defensive stance we will be just as squishy as dks, if not worse. I loved warriors, i mained as a warrior who was named Beefkow since BC, but now this class is very "unfun" and not even worth playing, i will probably just stick to dks.

[Deleted]

This forum is seriously fucking shit, people cry then you respond with stop crying and you get account infractions for "stop crying" when its fact warriors have been op all season long and now warriors are crying because next season they might actually need to have skill to get high, my account will get banned for this guarenteed so seriously stop whining everything that is op gets nerfed the hunter QQ stopped a few days after nerf...

[Malgru]

Let me digest this from a DK POV.

Second Wind Nerf/Defensive Stance nerf - This nerf is downright absurd and I'll explain why because I've seen so much ignorance floating around from people who've never played a Warrior. Warriors in Cataclysm originally had Second Wind and an ability named Blood Craze. Without going into details Blood Craze had a 10% chance of healing the Warrior when he received any damage source. Second Wind would only heal through a stun. Basically, these two talents healed for such a minimal amount, that it only made Warrior more resilient against bleeds and dots over DK's who have no passive healing. Old Battle Stance gave the Warrior 5% damage reduction and 5% damage bonus. The only heal that Warriors had that mattered was Enraged Regeneration, which at the time, healed for 30% of health over 10 seconds... 3 minute cool down. Then there was a talent called Field Dressing that buffed it to 36% I believe, but I forget the actual numbers.

Well, yours wasn't even on the GCD. Ours took two GCDs to heal 40% of our hp, and it took 40% of our RP.

5.2 Warrior doesn't have any passive healing outside of Second Wind and only gets a 0% reduction from Battle Stance. Yeah I said "Battle Stance" because Defensive Stance isn't viable with 5.2 Arms thanks to Blizzards ingenious Taste for Blood change. Overpower costs 10 rage and Defensive Stance offers only 10 rage per mortal strike with a small 1 rage bonus per 3 seconds. Previously, 5.0 -5.1 Warriors would just sit in defensive stance and really only use Mortal Strike, Overpower and Colossus Smash while completely ignoring Slam with the occasional Heroic Strike when having excess extra rage. Slam is just painful to use considering Warriors in pvp have way too many globals to fill and to use one of those globals for Slam is just a waste when it could be used to either re apply mortal strike, hit hamstring, hit shockwave or use a sudden death proc. Slam is basically a terrible burden to Arms considering Arms historically never really used it until season 10. Anyway, Defensive Stance in 5.2 will only be used if the Warrior is going to die because of the rage cost from Overpower that didn't exist in 5.1.

DKs have a 3% passive heal, and it is a chance on auto-attack. So it really doesn't make much of a difference. We're in the same boat. And guess what? In 5.2, Defensive stance will be nearly the exact same as Blood Presence. You guys camped Dstance and could still pump out insane damage, while if we went into blood presence our damage went to shit.

Back to healing, Rallying Cry is basically the only "heal" Warriors have but its mostly used as a utility ability to stack with shaman spirit link. Enraged Regeneration is now a talent that has to be chosen over Second Wind but its now a 10% heal on a 1 minute cool down. In other words, it sucks. 5.2 Second Wind is still affected by battle fatigue, and currently doesn't heal through stuns. That basically means once the Warrior is caught in a stun, he could go from 100-0 without a trinket. Before DK's and Ret Paladins go ape shit and explain to me "Well too bad, that's what we have to deal with" let me explain that Warriors have no jail cards out of stuns besides a trinket.

Actually, it's 20%. Second Wind DOES heal through stuns, it just doesn't go up while you're stunned. It's funny, because no other class can heal while stunned except classes with HoTs. You won't go 100-0, you're a plate wearing class. You have a 40% shield wall, and DKs have a 20%. Same CD. Same duration. Sure, ours breaks stuns, but what stun is on a super-long CD anymore?

Warriors are also the only melee in the game that moves at 100% movement speed against most classes who can run up to 115% or even up to 125%. Warriors are basically turtles and hamstring is joke considering its only a 50% movement debuff that requires melee range and 10 rage and is also easily dispelled. Compare that to Ret paladin Burden of Guilt which is basically a free ranged 50% movement slow that gives the Ret paladin one charge of holy power and if the ret is specced into long arm of the law can run up to 45% movement speed for 3 seconds. Judgement is only on a 6 second cool down and that cool down can be lowered through haste stacking.

Charge. Heroic Leap. Banner Intervene. Hamstring can't be dispelled unless you use BoP or Freedom. No ret uses Burden of Guilt, most use Fist of Justice.

Basically what I'm trying to explain is that Warriors can't kite melee. They have no tools outside of safeguard to break snares and mainly rely on team mates to dispell for them. Warriors don't have stealth, nor do they any type of fade or absorb type abilities. They have fear immunity every 30 seconds, which is great but not useful if the Warrior is the target getting trained. All they have is damage reduction abilities such as Shield Wall and Demoralizing Banner which only delay the inevitable due to their long cool downs. Heroic Leap, safeguard is really the only "escape" a Warrior has, but a defensive Warrior is a dead Warrior. Warriors are only doing well when they are maintaining pressure. If they're constantly being trained into the ground, they're more of a burden to the team healer than an actual asset. This is why I believe 5.1 Second Wind with 25% Defensive stance was not only fine, but necessary if you have a 40 second Shockwave. Warriors are Warriors, they're meant to have high passive defense for their complete lack of being able to avoid damage and slow ass movement speed.

They can't kite them now. What do the nerfs have anything to do with this? Your fear immunity is the single best fear-breaker in the game, save maybe Tremor. You have Die by the Sword. 40s shockwave is going to be nearly equivalent to Hammer of Justice. If you can't manage to hit 2 people with shockwave with the number of pets in this game, you're doing something wrong.

Season 11 Warriors weren't bad because they did no damage. In fact, season 11 Arms did great sustained damage but lacked in the defense department. However, Rogue could basically sit on a Warrior all game and slowed/stunned to the point where the damage didn't matter. This is exactly what is going to happen in 5.2. Its almost as if Warriors are going to become Season 12 Frost DK's without the ridiculous sustained pressure that Frost can deal but every 5 minutes can trounce someone that is stupid enough to sit in Avatar/Reck which by the way thanks to 5.1 nerfs, can be kited.

meanwhile Veev 100-0s a feral in 2 globals

This thread is about my opinion on the future of 5.2 Warriors. I don't care if you play an Elemental Shaman, Enhancement Shaman, Ret Paladin, WW Monk, Rogue, DK, Balance Druid, and cry on the forums with the "Pity me" attitude by constantly attacking people who play classes such as Warriors and Mages that had a good season. If you're going to make stupid statements like "Well now you know how US RETS FEEL" or "After season 12, I don't have any sympathy for Warriors" just get out, I won't reply to such stupid nonsense. Some people seriously need to get their head of of their asses and stop having so much blind loyalty to a certain class like its some sort of sports team.

I main DK by the way. I have no real sympathy towards Warriors but I want them to be actually viable and not dogshit for another 8 months until Blizzard decides to add a patch. No class deserves to be terrible for a season just because they had a good season. But this is the land of Blizzard and as much as they don't say it, they sure seem to balance this game for some classes around that philosophy.[/QUOTE]


So you want your anus to be assaulted in every single arena match above 2k?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Shockwave DR-ing with warbringer is probably where they are going too far

Stuns shouldn't be on the same DR?

"Warrior's being strong ? no no no! Nerf them to the ground and turn them into punching bags." ~Blizzard's Logic of Class Balance

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html

You don't think this is ridiculous?

[Gangresnake]

Stuns shouldn't be on the same DR?

Not in the case of charge stun.
This will just make warbringer a no-choice and force every warrior into double charge, not a great design and I dont see it necessary when Shockwave is put back at 40s CD.

[kosechi]

P.S. I'll say it a million and first time: warrior mobility sucks ass. Just because we can get to our target for 1.5 seconds at a time doesn't mean we're better off that literally every other melee who is able to stick to it's targets for an exceptionally longer amount of time while also moving flat out faster than the warrior.

wat. warrior mobility is fine, only ferals have better sticking power and mobility, they have no problems sticking to targets. and they don't run any faster then dks or rets either.

[Reith]

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html

You don't think this is ridiculous?

Not very relevant. This is more relevant:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-0-0.html

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Not very relevant. This is more relevant:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-0-0.html

Thanks for the correction!

Not in the case of charge stun.
This will just make warbringer a no-choice and force every warrior into double charge, not a great design and I dont see it necessary when Shockwave is put back at 40s CD.

I'm not sure I agree, and I'm not sure it would force them to use anything else either. Besides, its kind of against Blizzards design/desires to have a MUST HAVE talent.

[Deleted]

Just watch biggest pvp tourney yaspresents - 8/10 teams got warrior, 3/4 teams for war in a finals.

[Crunkosaurus]

lam is just painful to use considering Warriors in pvp have way too many globals to fill and to use one of those globals for Slam is just a waste when it could be used to either re apply mortal strike, hit hamstring, hit shockwave or use a sudden death proc. Slam is basically a terrible burden to Arms considering Arms historically never really used it until season 10

This really confuses me... How long have you even been playing a warrior? Slam was crucial for burst for the first 3 seasons of this game for warriors.

[Gangresnake]

Thanks for the correction!



I'm not sure I agree, and I'm not sure it would force them to use anything else either. Besides, its kind of against Blizzards design/desires to have a MUST HAVE talent.

Well that's the point, making warbringer on the stun DR would make double charge mandatory and the only choice. Right now is a pretty good mix between warbringer and double time, I dont think this is a good design and balance change. Shockwave being put on 40s CD might be enough

[kleinlax21]

lmfao boy you sure left out alot in your post right?are you really trying to justify all these warrior nerfs?

Nope, not at all! I would like to assert the fact that I know nothing, only that my math is correct(I hope!). I was just providing a baseline comparison to compare the scale of these nerfs to As I said earlier, I was only using DK's as the example comparison in order to juxtapose the defenses a DK (often considered one of the most viable melee train targets currently) has when compared to a Warrior. I never made an assertion that Second Wind or Warriors are currently/will be OP or UP. I was just disagreeing with the notion that these nerfs are the end of Warrior survivability as we know it. You are coming off as incredibly hostile, and I'm not sure why. I'm trying to re-assure you that your class will be fine Also, in my subsequent replies, I will try to clean up as much of your mediocre grammar as possible in order to avoid making you look like you forgot how to use the spacebar and shift button.

A dk can heal if his attack lands or not,correct, and at any health level right? Why are you comparing that to 2nd wind that only kicks in at 35%?

Yes, that is absolutely correct! However, as I mentioned earlier, Warriors can achieve about 3x the healing per second of a DK, while its only active for about 1/3 of the time. Balanced, I would consider that!

Compare your heal to VR, that's a better comparison.

We can go back and forth, with you listing some DK cooldown and saying how it offsets this disparity, and I can respond by saying "nuh uh!!" and listing your defensive cooldowns, knowing full well that it will just degenerate into a non-constructive ability-listing-fest the likes of which gets threads locked. OR, you can look at some math that took me a damn long time to type on this iPad and admire me for my hand strength and resistance to cramps.

I'm still on my iPad. Don't test me.

2nd wind no longer heals while stunned, in the game today there is more cc and stuns they ever before. Warriors will die to class like rogues without getting any heals from 2nd wind.

Yes, you are now more suceptible to dieing within a stun due to this nerf. However, Every other class cannot heal themselves under the effects of a stun, unless they have HoT's already rolling on them. An elegant nerf to Second Wind that promotes the smart usage of CC to score kills? I'm pretty sure every class is vulnerable to stuns when they are low on health, so to be honest I don't see a problem with this weakness being added to the talent.

Think about that a minute, a class not getting one self heal in todays game, lmfao. Dont say its not going to happen because it going to and we all know it. Why not do some math on that, without any heals from 2nd wind. Bang kidney shot = dead, bang pally stun = dead.

Yes, it most defimitely will happen! I'm sure Mages will have a much easier time taking you from 35%-0% after this nerf, especially if they put you in a Deep Freeze with Icy Veins, trinkets, etc. all active. And ok, I'd be happy to do some math around that scenario! Let me know if it isn't exhaustive enough for your purposes.

So, in your hypothetical situation, lets say you are sitting at 30% health in 2s and you are with another healer who is CC'ed for the whole duration of this scenario with his trinket down. In other words, he's not gonna be able to use a single heal on you. You are facing a Rogue and a Hpally(or a Ret, I'll do math for both scenarios, I just know Hpallies are more common), who are about to line up a stun on you. Lets assume you are moderately geared, with 65% Resilience and 380k total health. Your health in this scenario is (380,000 x .30) = 114,000. Your effective health, with 65% Resil, is (114,000 x (1 / (1 - .65) ) ) = 325,714 Damage. So, including gains from PvP Power, the Rogue (and maybe Ret) have to do 325k damage to you in the period of a stun, where you get no gain from Second Wind, to kill you.

So, Second Wind is active, but the Rogue lands a 5-combo point Kidney on you, which lasts 6 Seconds. As soon as the stun wears off, the Pally uses his 6-second stun, Fist of Justice. But, since stun is now on DR for you, it only lasts 3 Seconds. For the sake of the argument, let's say the Rogue uses Marked for Death on you, and uses another 5-combo point stun on you as soon as the Pally's stun is over. Due to DR, this stun only lasts 1.5 seconds. In total, this scenario would result in a 10.5 second stun, during which you get no benefit from Second Wind. For this example, I'll assume you're stuck in Battle Stance, and will not be getting any of Defensive Stance's benefits. A worst-case scenario, if I do say so myself.

So, they have to do 325k damage to you in 10.5 seconds. In terms of damage per second, they must achieve a team dps value of (325,714 / 10.5) = 31,020 or greater. Keep in mind, this is before PvP Power gets taken into account. Now, lets assume the Rogue (and, possibly, a Ret) is moderately geared with 55% PvP Power. So, taking PvP Power into account, they must be able to do (31,020 / 1.55) = 20,013 damage per second. If we are talking about a Rogue and a Ret together, they must each be able to contribute (20,013 / 2) = 10,007 damage per second in order to kill you within this 10 seconds.

All in all, I'd say this scenario is a very realistic one, with a Pally having access to Blinding Light and Repentance to keep the healer locked down, as well as the Rogue's Blind/Garrote if needed. I'd say that a kill is very easily possible under this scenario.

BUT, let's take a look at what happens currently, pre-Second Wind nerf. Now, you guys heal for 2.1% of health per second (taken from the post you quoted). So, in this 10.5 second stun you are in, you will heal for (.021 x 10.5) = 22.05% of your health. 22% of your health value of 380k is (380,000 x .2205) = 83,709 health that must be damaged through before Resil and Power are taken into account. Adding this to your current health value of 114,000 is (114,000 + 83,709) = 197,790. I'm just going to continue through my past steps taken without an explanation, as the exact same logic is used as the first example with the Second Wind nerf taken into account. Let me know if you have any questions about any of this math used.

(197,790 x (1 / (1 - .65) ) ) = 565,114 Effective Health
(565,114 / 10.5) = 53,820 Damage per Second Needed before PvP Power
(53,820 / 1.55) = 34,722 Team Damage Per Second Needed.

So, let's take a look at these numbers, which are quite interesting! The damage per second required when you are facing just a rogue is increased by 1 - (34,722 / 20,013) = 73% when you simply add Second Wind, a seemingly measely 3% max health healing per second, into the equation(I honestly did not expect a factor this large!). This 73% increase in Dps required is most likely the reason for this change. Whether its warranted or not is for you to decide, but at least now you know the numbers behind what this nerf is going to cause

What's that you say game balanced around 3's. Ok drop warrior to 35% then cc his healer, stun warrior once or twice, and hes dead without a heal. You act like its hard to cc/stun in todays game.

A couple things here: First, I think PvP should be balanced for RBG's, as Arenas are for sissy babies that can't figure out how to keep track of 19 other people instead of 5 ( /sarcasm off). Second, it is not hard to stun in today's game. It is actually quite easy, just doing it at the right time is what takes skill. Third, yes, I actually do expect the most viable way to kill a Warrior is to chain stun him and dps him when Second Wind isn't active. Why make yourself do 73% more damage when you can just stun the Warrior? Seems like a no-brainer to me, and it's what I do to other classes as well

2nd- why are you trying to tell warriors what stance we have to sit in for pvp? There is no pvp stance any more, there is no fury or arms stance any more.nIf a warrior sit in d-stance we get less rage and we do less damage then sitting in battle stance. We can do more damage in battle stance then we can do in d-stance. There nothing wrong with warrior sitting in d-stance, it does what it supposed to do, reduce damage at the cost of rage. Wtf dont you get about that? You said it yourself you can go blood stance but you do less damage, well so does a warrior in d-stance because the rage is better in battle. You act like warriors are supposed to be in battle stance. Do you even remember when berserker stance was the pvp stance? Games change and warrior did too.

I never attempted to say which stance Warriors should be in, I only commented on it because I used the 15% defensive stance in my math calculations, as it is my understanding that, because defensive stance is so good, Warriors sit in it and gain the benefits almost all of the time. Thus, I felt obligated to comment on it as it was a healthy part of my nerf analysis.

I hope I answered your questions, good day to you sir and don't despair! Warriors will still be viable

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Well that's the point, making warbringer on the stun DR would make double charge mandatory and the only choice. Right now is a pretty good mix between warbringer and double time, I dont think this is a good design and balance change. Shockwave being put on 40s CD might be enough

I think cleaning up DR's will fix a lot of things. Maybe they should compensate them somehow. I don't know, I have not played a Warrior on the PTR for these changes.

[kosechi]

Well that's the point, making warbringer on the stun DR would make double charge mandatory and the only choice. Right now is a pretty good mix between warbringer and double time, I dont think this is a good design and balance change. Shockwave being put on 40s CD might be enough

there are already plenty of mandatory pvp talents. blizz failed in their attempt to get rid of cookie cutter specs.

[Flaks]

wat. warrior mobility is fine, only ferals have better sticking power and mobility, they have no problems sticking to targets. and they don't run any faster then dks or rets either.

Really? Warrior sticking power is fine? You think a warrior can do anything whatsoever when every single other melee moves faster and has snare/root removal on low cds while warriors only get maximum uptime of 4 or 6 seconds every 40 or 90 seconds depending on shockwave or bladestorm.

Warriors, with boot enchant, run at 107% speed with 3 charges that are hard countered by roots and soft countered by slows. Rets, baseline, run at 115% speed and have snare/root immunity AND removal. UH dk's (the more potent 5.2 dk spec) runs at 126% baseline movement speed which might be improved by taking death's advance. They also have immunity against magical roots/snares in ams. And I failed to mention that both these other classes are also have low cd reliable ranged attacks unlike warriors.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 09:56 PM ----------

there are already plenty of mandatory pvp talents. blizz failed in their attempt to get rid of cookie cutter specs.

This. Their abomination of an attempt to "equalize" talents by nerfing the only VIABLE options should tell you everything about how out of touch they are with their own game.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You guys are just going to have a hard time getting sympathy for a Warrior nerf considering 19% of class/specs OVER 2200 in 3v3 are Arms Warriors..... Almost 1/5th of all characters over 2200 are Arms Warriors........ thats 1/33 specs are taking up 19% .....

[Flaks]

You guys are just going to have a hard time getting sympathy for a Warrior nerf considering 19% of class/specs OVER 2200 in 3v3 are Arms Warriors..... Almost 1/5th of all characters over 2200 are Arms Warriors........ thats 1/33 specs are taking up 19% .....

You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone with half a brain that those stats matter when people have been sitting on their ratings since October.

If 5.1 ended up being a new season, we'd see warrior representation plummet and likely equalize with rets, dk's and even ww monks (who were perfectly fine and competitive with 5.1 changes) while feral reprsentation would have sky rocketed.

[kosechi]

Really? Warrior sticking power is fine? You think a warrior can do anything whatsoever when every single other melee moves faster and has snare/root removal on low cds while warriors only get maximum uptime of 4 or 6 seconds every 40 or 90 seconds depending on shockwave or bladestorm.

Warriors, with boot enchant, run at 107% speed with 3 charges that are hard countered by roots and soft countered by slows. Rets, baseline, run at 115% speed and have snare/root immunity AND removal. UH dk's (the more potent 5.2 dk spec) runs at 126% baseline movement speed which might be improved by taking death's advance. They also have immunity against magical roots/snares in ams. And I failed to mention that both these other classes are also have low cd reliable ranged attacks unlike warriors.

rets only run at 115% with the PoJ talent which is almost universally not taken in pvp. dks run at 115% in unholy presence, but most dks are frost sitting in blood pres. both run at the same speed as warriors do. warriors have a short cd snare and root break, and three gap closers, the vast majority also play with either paladins or shamans, which gives them further snare and root immunity. that combined with the ranged snares of either a hunter or the sticking power of a feral makes warriors very hard to escape.



ret's and dks have reliable ranged attacks more to support their tendency to defensively kite since neither is designed to be as tanky as warriors.

[Flaks]

rets only run at 115% with the PoJ talent which is almost universally not taken in pvp. dks run at 115% in unholy presence, but most dks are frost sitting in blood pres. both run at the same speed as warriors do. warriors have a short cd snare and root break, and three gap closers, the vast majority also play with either paladins or shamans, which gives them further snare and root immunity. that combined with the ranged snares of either a hunter or the sticking power of a feral makes warriors very hard to escape.



ret's and dks have reliable ranged attacks more to support their tendency to defensively kite since neither is designed to be as tanky as warriors.

Like I said, expect frost to be replaced by UH next patch. All ret first tier talents yield massive movement speed gains. They have exceptionally short cd/no cd root/snare removers. Unlike warriors, both these classes have the option to talent into abilities that make them have more grip. And my bad, death's advance leads to the 126% movement speed in uh presence.

Also, 115% movement speed =/= 107% movement speed. Warriors do not move at the same speed as rets, dks, enh shammies, rogues, ferals or ww monks. Warriors ARE the slowest melee in the game. And yes, that 8% makes a significant difference especially when in the time the warrior gets hamstring on, the other class can use one of their low cd abilities to remove the snare already.

I have no idea where you're getting that warriors have a low cd root/snare remover. They only ever had one for the brief period where heroic leap with pvp 4 piece broke roots IN BETA.

[Reith]

Like I said, expect frost to be replaced by UH next patch. All ret first tier talents yield massive movement speed gains. They have exceptionally short cd/no cd root/snare removers. Unlike warriors, both these classes have the option to talent into abilities that make them have more grip. And my bad, death's advance leads to the 126% movement speed in uh presence.

Also, 115% movement speed =/= 107% movement speed. Warriors do not move at the same speed as rets, dks, enh shammies, rogues, ferals or ww monks. Warriors ARE the slowest melee in the game. And yes, that 8% makes a significant difference especially when in the time the warrior gets hamstring on, the other class can use one of their low cd abilities to remove the snare already.

I have no idea where you're getting that warriors have a low cd root/snare remover. They only ever had one for the brief period where heroic leap with pvp 4 piece broke roots IN BETA.

You can't just compare mobility like that when Warriors have more utility and stuns.