[Frost/Unholy PvP] What is REALLY up with these specs?

[Terahertz]

I've been hearing a lot lately that unholy/frost dks generally have quite low survivability. Especially in arena.

I'm planning on rerolling from druid to either DK/Hunter (no this is not a thread revolving around me asking what class to roll, just want some clarification). But I'm not completely sure whether the DK playstyle is mine.

Do DKs get globalled? Like versus mage/rogue or any other melee cleave? Or should I simply go frost for 2s? (I enjoy Unholy more than frost, but I don't hate frost completely)

How are DKs in BGs? The times I fought DKs on my feral I got so incredibly frustrated seeing as how one of the DKs literally SPAM rooted me, and 20k howling blasts into my face. And everytime I went face to face.. I basically got my face melted.

Also how are DKs in 2s/3s? I'm including 2s with this seeing as that's the bracket I cap my CP in. Should I go frost if I want to cleave stuff with let's say... a warrior? And Unholy if I won't to play with a healer? (reckoning this is even viable)

Another thing; are DKs the anti caster class? I know in wotlk they were. Also, how are they against melee?

Now about duels (lolduels), are there any classes I CAN beat IF I manage to play it right? Or are DKs basically doggyshitty without a partner?

I also know frost dk is the more glass cannony spec, while unholy "supposedly" has better survivability. I'm wondering WHY Unholy supposedly has better survivability. Is this because you can kite and still do some decent damage?

Reason I'm asking these questions are of course because I'm wishing to reroll, and I want to know if I get globalled a lot as DK, else I will most likely go hunter simply because of deterrence xD. I enjoyed my DK end cataclysm in PvE, but didn't have any PVP gear to see how they were really like in PvP.

One last thing.. are there ANY fancy things I can pull off as DK? I know as hunter you can do fancy stuff with explosive shot, deterrence and stuff. But as DK the only thing I can see being fancy is triple gripping stuff and stealing stuff with dark simulacrum. Is Dark Simulacrum actually able to steal spells like Thunderstorm/Typhoon? ;>

[Darsithis]

I'm not 2200 rated, but I also don't experience that same squishyness that everyone says we have. Do we die easier? Yeah we definitely take more damage but a DK in arena should be gemming for defense once you've gotten your Malevolent weapon. We do well in 2's with an arms warrior and great in 3's with arms or mage + healer.

Frost is the burst and SMASH YOUR FACE spec but isn't amazing against plate if 2H or casters if DW. Unholy is the slower-magic dealing & stun spec with pet control.

You can win against anyone in a duel if you play well. There is not a single class or spec I haven't managed to kill alone or with help.

Battlegrounds are...battlegrounds. Most of the time your failures are because the team as a whole isn't working well (I love it when people leave me as disc on my alt all alone to defend). You're superb, however, with roots and stuns to keep enemies off of your healers.

As far as I know, DS cannot steal Thunderstorm...at least I've never managed to pick it up.

[Lirina]

I personally play Unholy. The ammount of damage you can put out through DnD and Disease spread makes frost looks useless. Against casters I fell like I have more survivability by having the pet stuns and having the Garg / ghoul stay on the Caster when I am unable to. Against mele the DnD Glyph allows me to kite and pool runes to maximize my damage when I have to get into the fight. Frost feels clunky and KM relient. I've seen frost DKs burst people down in 4 globals because they got great KM procs but, I've seen Frost not do any damage becuase they never got a KM proc. I prefer Unholy becuase it's a spec that forces you to control the battle. Unholy DKs that force other classes to dance by their rules typically win. You can survive and kite anyone. Also w/ the new Converson and 0RP cost of Garg in 5.2 UH will be harder to kill, we won't have to sacrafice a massive ammount of RP to summon the Garg, pop conversion and stay in the fight spamming SS/Necros.

[Tyrannica]

How are DKs in BGs? The times I fought DKs on my feral I got so incredibly frustrated seeing as how one of the DKs literally SPAM rooted me, and 20k howling blasts into my face. And everytime I went face to face.. I basically got my face melted.

Your kidding or trolling. Anyways thats retarded to write, because i play both: dk and feral with full glad gear and pvp weapons. How can you say 20k howling blast will melt your face, when a feral can kill any dk spec, with the exception of blood, in a few globals and can't escape without external help? Do you never use incarnation as feral, do you play with green gear, forge to mastery and use bleeds? wtf....? Everytime when i am in in a bg or in arena on my feral and see a deekay i get a bright smile, cause the outcome is fixed. Don't be confused with high single target burst vs meaningless cleave dmg. Spamming ravage with cd stacking simply kills anything that got no spamable cc or super def cds. the warrior is also a victim to feral burst, but at least is still much, much better than a dk with his def stance and with second wind, stuns and fears. Stuns and fears will affect a feral, dk silence and roots/snares won't not even remorseless winter its totally useless. Reroll hunter for god's sake, better pet, better offensivly cds, better survival, and good cc/kiting, you can even fear ferals lol made my morning.....

[Terahertz]

Your kidding or trolling. Anyways thats retarded to write, because i play both: dk and feral with full glad gear and pvp weapons. How can you say 20k howling blast will melt your face, when a feral can kill any dk spec, with the exception of blood, in a few globals and can't escape without external help? Do you never use incarnation as feral, do you play with green gear, forge to mastery and use bleeds? wtf....? Everytime when i am in in a bg or in arena on my feral and see a deekay i get a bright smile, cause the outcome is fixed. Don't be confused with high single target burst vs meaningless cleave dmg. Spamming ravage with cd stacking simply kills anything that got no spamable cc or super def cds. the warrior is also a victim to feral burst, but at least is still much, much better than a dk with his def stance and with second wind, stuns and fears. Stuns and fears will affect a feral, dk silence and roots/snares won't not even remorseless winter its totally useless. Reroll hunter for god's sake, better pet, better offensivly cds, better survival, and good cc/kiting, you can even fear ferals lol made my morning.....

I'm neither kidding nor trolling. I've met multiple frost DKs who kept spamming chains of ice root on me, which gave them the oppertunity to run so far away from me (I shapeshifted his root every single time). It's also not that easy (at least not for me) to kill a frost dk who has better gear than me and hitting 100k oblits on me :/.
Also, I know I can burst someone down from 100 to 0 by facerolling my face on the keyboard with ravage bound to every key, but I've NEVER liked that playstyle. If I wanted to global people in one stun with all my CDs, I wouldn't of played feral in wotlk/cataclysm. I would've played ret paladin instead ya know :/

Thanks to the others giving me some clarification about both frost and unholy DKs. I'll be playing some DK untill I get bored/frustrated with them.

Again, the reason I'm not really into hunter is because of their boring sustained damage. I remember in cataclysm that MM burst was extremely RNG and their sustained damage was laughable.

[liljc711]

What would you say is your playstyle in game?

[kleinlax21]

I always try to Dark Sim fun utility stuff like Blink, Divine Shield, Hand of Freedom, Psychic Horror, etc. You can also use Death Grip as a charge if you target a Warrior who has Spell Reflect up, and also to pull Ele Shaman, Hunters, and Druids to you if they knock you off a ledge or cliff like the one at LM in Arathi Basin.

If you dark sim, for example, a Blink, you can grip an enemy to you, turn 180 degrees, use Blink, and use Death Grip again on the same enemy if you need to move him a great distance, upwards of 60 yards. You can also use this combo and then tack on a Gorefiend's Grasp at the end of it to increase your potential pull distance up to around 100 yards if you can time everything correctly.

A lot of the crazy tricks we can pull off include some awesome spell we steal using Dark Sim. Hand of Freedom is possibly the easiest spell to steal of all time; just use Chains on a Pally and Dark Sim him/her in the same GCD, then profit. Since they can't dispel Chains, Holy Paladins can only use Freedom to get away from you so they are the best spec to try this on. Ret's will sometimes use Emancipate which isn't a terrible steal, but you really want that Hand of Freedom.

Blink is just as easy to steal, just Death Grip the Mage to you, and Chains + Dark Sim him/her at the same time. If he blinks away before your 2nd charge of Death Grip becomes available, grip him back to you and save the stolen Blink and use it whenever you need it beyond that.

Those are some of your basic Dark Sim steals that you want to be setting up whenever you find yourself against a Hpally or a Mage. They take a bit of practice to get down though, and I recommend finding a willing punching bag to try it out on.

As far as your concerns about survivability go, our sustained healing/defense outside of cooldowns is quite paltry, and this is the source for the feedback you hear regarding our defensive capabilities. We aren't Warriors with passive 25% damage reduction and 10k HPS below 35%. However, we do have some great cooldowns that can really save your life. A 1.5 minute cd stun breaker/20% damage reduction CD, a 45-second cd Anti-Magic Shield, a 2-minute cd Fear breaker that acts as a self-heal, and our 2 minute cd heal for 50% of our max health. So, while we are healthily endowed in the defensive cooldown department, we most certainly are lacking in the sustained self-healing one. Because of this, expect to be the consistent focus target in your Arena matches.

Both Frost and Unholy have very similar survivability, the main differences is that Unholy focuses more on sustained damage, whereas Frost is much more bursty by nature. Both have access to all the same defensive cooldowns and abilities, so I'm not sure where you are hearing about a disparity between the two as far as survivability is concerned.

DK's are most definitely the premiere anti-caster melee. AMS allows us to get up close and personal with our favorite caster buddy and gives us some uninterrupted cuddle time. It also allows us to set up stuns from Remorseless Winter much easier, because very few casters have any tools they can use to peel us once we are next to them with AMS up. Our silence is also getting its cooldown halved, down to 1 minute instead of 2. This, on top of all the nerfs other classes are seeing done to their silence, leaves us and Shadow Priests as the only specs with Silence effects left in the game. In addition, if you're a Blood Elf (yay!) you have access to an additional silence, bringing your total to 1 interrupt and 2 silences (1 silence and 1 stun if talented). Those reasons are why we are known, for good reason, as the anti-caster melee.

As far as defending against melee goes, well, you have Chains of Ice + Chillbains. We have lackluster defenses against melee, but our ability to keep any target at 40% run speed shouldn't be underestimated. Kiting melee is quite easy in MoP and can get you some quick breathing room. We are also great at throwing out peels and keeping melee off our precious healer friends with Death Grip. I always try to use both charges of Death Grip when the need to use 1 arises: one to yank a kill target to me, and another to use at my discretion. I frequently use the second charge as a peel for my healer partner in the arena. Throw in a Chains of Ice to the mix, and that melee player isn't getting back onto his target for a good 5 seconds at least.

I hope that answers your questions, and I bid you good luck in making your decision.

[Terahertz]

I always try to Dark Sim fun utility stuff like Blink, Divine Shield, Hand of Freedom, Psychic Horror, etc. You can also use Death Grip as a charge if you target a Warrior who has Spell Reflect up, and also to pull Ele Shaman, Hunters, and Druids to you if they knock you off a ledge or cliff like the one at LM in Arathi Basin.

If you dark sim, for example, a Blink, you can grip an enemy to you, turn 180 degrees, use Blink, and use Death Grip again on the same enemy if you need to move him a great distance, upwards of 60 yards. You can also use this combo and then tack on a Gorefiend's Grasp at the end of it to increase your potential pull distance up to around 100 yards if you can time everything correctly.

A lot of the crazy tricks we can pull off include some awesome spell we steal using Dark Sim. Hand of Freedom is possibly the easiest spell to steal of all time; just use Chains on a Pally and Dark Sim him/her in the same GCD, then profit. Since they can't dispel Chains, Holy Paladins can only use Freedom to get away from you so they are the best spec to try this on. Ret's will sometimes use Emancipate which isn't a terrible steal, but you really want that Hand of Freedom.

Blink is just as easy to steal, just Death Grip the Mage to you, and Chains + Dark Sim him/her at the same time. If he blinks away before your 2nd charge of Death Grip becomes available, grip him back to you and save the stolen Blink and use it whenever you need it beyond that.

Those are some of your basic Dark Sim steals that you want to be setting up whenever you find yourself against a Hpally or a Mage. They take a bit of practice to get down though, and I recommend finding a willing punching bag to try it out on.

As far as your concerns about survivability go, our sustained healing/defense outside of cooldowns is quite paltry, and this is the source for the feedback you hear regarding our defensive capabilities. We aren't Warriors with passive 25% damage reduction and 10k HPS below 35%. However, we do have some great cooldowns that can really save your life. A 1.5 minute cd stun breaker/20% damage reduction CD, a 45-second cd Anti-Magic Shield, a 2-minute cd Fear breaker that acts as a self-heal, and our 2 minute cd heal for 50% of our max health. So, while we are healthily endowed in the defensive cooldown department, we most certainly are lacking in the sustained self-healing one. Because of this, expect to be the consistent focus target in your Arena matches.

Both Frost and Unholy have very similar survivability, the main differences is that Unholy focuses more on sustained damage, whereas Frost is much more bursty by nature. Both have access to all the same defensive cooldowns and abilities, so I'm not sure where you are hearing about a disparity between the two as far as survivability is concerned.

DK's are most definitely the premiere anti-caster melee. AMS allows us to get up close and personal with our favorite caster buddy and gives us some uninterrupted cuddle time. It also allows us to set up stuns from Remorseless Winter much easier, because very few casters have any tools they can use to peel us once we are next to them with AMS up. Our silence is also getting its cooldown halved, down to 1 minute instead of 2. This, on top of all the nerfs other classes are seeing done to their silence, leaves us and Shadow Priests as the only specs with Silence effects left in the game. In addition, if you're a Blood Elf (yay!) you have access to an additional silence, bringing your total to 1 interrupt and 2 silences (1 silence and 1 stun if talented). Those reasons are why we are known, for good reason, as the anti-caster melee.

As far as defending against melee goes, well, you have Chains of Ice + Chillbains. We have lackluster defenses against melee, but our ability to keep any target at 40% run speed shouldn't be underestimated. Kiting melee is quite easy in MoP and can get you some quick breathing room. We are also great at throwing out peels and keeping melee off our precious healer friends with Death Grip. I always try to use both charges of Death Grip when the need to use 1 arises: one to yank a kill target to me, and another to use at my discretion. I frequently use the second charge as a peel for my healer partner in the arena. Throw in a Chains of Ice to the mix, and that melee player isn't getting back onto his target for a good 5 seconds at least.

I hope that answers your questions, and I bid you good luck in making your decision.

This is an awesome reply to my questions. You really clarified things up for me.

I will most definately try out DK again, and I just finished setting up my ideal UI (clear sight on runes, runic power and pet shadow infusion procs). I, myself have been wondering a lot about DK and the fancy stuff they can pull off, which involve Dark Sim (ofc), Death Grips and stuff, which basically sealed the deal for me and made my decision final.

One thing I'm wondering, which glyphs do DKs usually use? Right now this http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/tal...!000000!abXiQn is my choice of build. But seeing as you mentioned 1.5 min stun breaker, you probably took the IBF glyph. You also mentioned DnD slow, which makes me think you also took the DnD glyph.
Should I replace my anti magic shell and strang glyph with those glyphs? Or use whatever I think feels right?

[Tyrannica]

I'm neither kidding nor trolling. I've met multiple frost DKs who kept spamming chains of ice root on me, which gave them the oppertunity to run so far away from me (I shapeshifted his root every single time). It's also not that easy (at least not for me) to kill a frost dk who has better gear than me and hitting 100k oblits on me :/.
Also, I know I can burst someone down from 100 to 0 by facerolling my face on the keyboard with ravage bound to every key, but I've NEVER liked that playstyle. If I wanted to global people in one stun with all my CDs, I wouldn't of played feral in wotlk/cataclysm. I would've played ret paladin instead ya know :/

Thanks to the others giving me some clarification about both frost and unholy DKs. I'll be playing some DK untill I get bored/frustrated with them.

Again, the reason I'm not really into hunter is because of their boring sustained damage. I remember in cataclysm that MM burst was extremely RNG and their sustained damage was laughable.

Dude i play feral and dk on live, with both full glad gear. what you say is just not true! The problem just is you may lack gear and don't know how to play a feral. You have to use your 3 min burst with ravage, your bleeds and Cyclone. Frost dks do not stand a single chance, actually i duelled my fdk arena mate and he always drops dead after a few secs. How will 20k blasts kill a feral? The selfheal can crit for retarded amounts too. Do you take the gylph that gives 20%+ healing in catform? You can kite the dk easily as a druid and make him bleed to death too if your mastery and you ability to kite is high enough.

Either way, learn to play your feral or just play a fdk 2 button spec. I would have understand you if you had problems with an uh dk though. But fdks are just way too easy to burst and kite, its just ridiculous. And makes me think fdk is just designed to be a pve class. Not impressed by cleave dmg that won't contribute to a kill. If you decide to play a fdk, get prepared to be killed by almost all melee specs in the game, if your support from mates is lacking. If you want to be dangerous for everyone play the uh dk, but be warned he is not easier to play than a feral.

Glyphs are situational, you take those that back up your playstyle. In arenas just check the high ladder dks.

[Terahertz]

Dude i play feral and dk on live, with both full glad gear. what you say is just not true! The problem just is you may lack gear and don't know how to play a feral. You have to use your 3 min burst with ravage, your bleeds and Cyclone. Frost dks do not stand a single chance, actually i duelled my fdk arena mate and he always drops dead after a few secs. How will 20k blasts kill a feral? The selfheal can crit for retarded amounts too. Do you take the gylph that gives 20%+ healing in catform? You can kite the dk easily as a druid and make him bleed to death too if your mastery and you ability to kite is high enough.

Either way, learn to play your feral or just play a fdk 2 button spec. I would have understand you if you had problems with an uh dk though. But fdks are just way too easy to burst and kite, its just ridiculous. And makes me think fdk is just designed to be a pve class. Not impressed by cleave dmg that won't contribute to a kill. If you decide to play a fdk, get prepared to be killed by almost all melee specs in the game, if your support from mates is lacking. If you want to be dangerous for everyone play the uh dk, but be warned he is not easier to play than a feral.

Glyphs are situational, you take those that back up your playstyle. In arenas just check the high ladder dks.

Just saying, but I'm not an idiot, okay? I know how to play a feral, and I know how to global someone. And 1v1 versus a fdk I can global him with ease. But so can he with 90k obliterates, which forces me to play defensively. 20k howling blasts DO hurt when you're running away. Also remember that no ranged attack (non-crit ofc) barely hit for more than 15-20k. Oh and yeah, I've been hit for 100k obliterates with 63% resil. Also, the reason I'm not planning on playing my feral anymore, is because of all the nerfs they're introducing to ferals/boomkins/resto. So I decided to roll a class that would actually be somewhat fun in 5.2.

I also know fdks are glass cannons, which will most likely be my spec whenever I feel like not trying at all. But meanwhile I'll most likely be playing unholy.

[Tyrannica]

sry dude but i still greatly doubt you know how to play a feral, nothing you write had convienced me a tiny bit. Iam playing a dk Uh/fdk with full gladi gear and t2 in arena he is my main since S8. I play the Feral her ein S12 as an Arena Twink too, with almost full gladi gear and t1. fdk is a victim if you are not exactly in greens, high oblits and howling blasts won't change anything. Even the feral selfheal is way more powerful than the jokes that a fdk has. And cyclone is still unnerfed, i do not care about 5.2. at all all i care is about live stuff. At live feral is the most op melee class and the hardest counter possible to fdks. those oblits are lucky strikes depending on lucky killing machine procs and require to land a hit too on the high avoid on the cat form. As unholy dk, i can farm ferals. At least you did understand, that uh is the way to go......but never, ever, post shit about fdk and ferals again, kk?

[Noxina]

sry dude but i still greatly doubt you know how to play a feral, nothing you write had convienced me a tiny bit. Iam playing a dk Uh/fdk with full gladi gear and t2 in arena he is my main since S8. I play the Feral her ein S12 as an Arena Twink too, with almost full gladi gear and t1. fdk is a victim if you are not exactly in greens, high oblits and howling blasts won't change anything. Even the feral selfheal is way more powerful than the jokes that a fdk has. And cyclone is still unnerfed, i do not care about 5.2. at all all i care is about live stuff. At live feral is the most op melee class and the hardest counter possible to fdks. those oblits are lucky strikes depending on lucky killing machine procs and require to land a hit too on the high avoid on the cat form. As unholy dk, i can farm ferals. At least you did understand, that uh is the way to go......but never, ever, post shit about fdk and ferals again, kk?

Wow, who took a piss in your cereal this morning? O_o Take a chillpill... He think frosts hit him hard when he play feral, and he feels he get kited by them trowing out 100 Ice Chains. You think you're godlike and thus got the right to bash on others opinion, so yeah - have fun with your feral.

This thread is realy helpfull (Except Tyrannicas posts), as I've just hit 90 on my DK alt and are trying to figure out what spec to go with. Tried Frost so far, and I enjoy it, though I get trampled as I only got Dreadfull gear and play with a IRL friend of mine in arena (at 1.6k mmr)... But I can still put out some great dmg and have good control over the map as frost. Will try UH this weekend I guess ;D

[Tyrannica]

Wow, who took a piss in your cereal this morning? O_o Take a chillpill... He think frosts hit him hard when he play feral, and he feels he get kited by them trowing out 100 Ice Chains. You think you're godlike and thus got the right to bash on others opinion, so yeah - have fun with your feral.

This thread is realy helpfull (Except Tyrannicas posts), as I've just hit 90 on my DK alt and are trying to figure out what spec to go with. Tried Frost so far, and I enjoy it, though I get trampled as I only got Dreadfull gear and play with a IRL friend of mine in arena (at 1.6k mmr)... But I can still put out some great dmg and have good control over the map as frost. Will try UH this weekend I guess ;D

As to whats interesting, i find my own posts 1000times more interesting to read, than baseline stuff that you can find in any dk guide, that bores any seasoned dk player to death. Same goes for low rated casual pvp that just seems bads vs bads, that probably don't even use focus macros and how to react in pvp situations like running away as feral from a dk and get hit into the back and by blasts, thats how you NOT play a feral, running is for healers. Next time just use the search function or go to arenajunkies to get the basics.

So the truth is bashing on opinions for you? Frost can't hit a feral hard, except you completely fail to play him, at live its exactly the other way around, the fdk will be globaled by the feral instantly and there is no way to prevent it.

Yeah met Ferals that don't cd stack and let them get big hits into the back, like the op here, who runs when he shouldn't, and do not find the shift out of roots hotkey. Let them pretend Frost dks global them now. yeah....let us pretend ferals have no shit against that.....

The question here really is, why to refuse to learn to play your class, why reroll for reasions no one can understand with his mind right. Its like saying i reroll rogue, cause my warri gets killed by him, or i reroll mage cause my hunter has trouble vs mages, or i reroll a dk cause a healer will kill my dk....?

Why putting false arguments? Why not saying: i reroll cause i like the playstyle of dk more than a feral? I would accept that. Anyways feral tears cause of frost dk abilities is the most ridiculous thing i saw in a while and i read the blizz forums too......O.o

I wonder if you do any duelling feral vs dk, i did plenty, in both ways.

I really rest my case here, not much worth my time. Btw, my feral is not my main, but arena alt.

[Spiritvs]

Quick response for you:

If you want to do arenas, don't go DK.
If you want to do RBG, Dk is fun and can change the game.


Tyrannica may be a little harsh with his words words but he is right. Feral is better that dk, if ur tired of it, if you enjoy pet classes go with the hunter.

[Tyrean]

To the guy that said there is no difference in Frost vs Unholy survivability, he is just wrong. There is a huge difference.

1.) Blood presence. You have to sit in blood a lot. Frost loses RP generation, CC reduction and reduced frost strike cost. That means they generate runes slower and do less damage (and death strike healing). Unholy can sit in blood the whole game if they choose because all they effectively lose is 10% run speed and a second on rune regeneration.

2.) Kite damage. A frost DK that is kiting is doing zero damage. In order for a frost DK to kite they have to use the very runes they need to do ranged damage. An unholy DK however is generating RP while kiting you that he uses for ranged attacks that empower his ghoul beating on you and his gargoyle.

3.) Healing. A frost DK has to summon a ghoul and then sac it, which sometimes is one GCD too slow. A Frost DK cannot heal as much with lichborne and uses it mostly for a fear break. A frost DK that is spamming deathstrike to stay alive is doing almost no damage (because they are probably in blood pres). An unholy already has a pet up so sac is instant (going to be conversion awesomeness). An unholy gets more out of lichborne heals because of higher strength and lower death coil cost. An unholy DK can spam death strike and still do good damage because of pets.

Just some examples of how Frost is no where near Unholy in terms of survivability. I did not even mention pet utility... The reason why there are so many frost DKs out there is because they burst on command with no buildup. Comps now are about popping CDs and instant CC and gibbing someone. Unholy is a more deliberate and controlled spec that just does not fit into the new arena. When the average arena match goes up from 3 minutes in length to something closer to 10 minutes in length then you will see frost go the way it has always been in arena.

As far as RBG are concerned, unholy can actually put out more damage than frost and have the same tools, they just can't spin flags like frost can. A frost DK can keep a flag contested for a very long time from range, an unholy cannot which is why frost gets taken over unholy.

[Terahertz]

As to whats interesting, i find my own posts 1000times more interesting to read, than baseline stuff that you can find in any dk guide, that bores any seasoned dk player to death. Same goes for low rated casual pvp that just seems bads vs bads, that probably don't even use focus macros and how to react in pvp situations like running away as feral from a dk and get hit into the back and by blasts, thats how you NOT play a feral, running is for healers. Next time just use the search function or go to arenajunkies to get the basics.

So the truth is bashing on opinions for you? Frost can't hit a feral hard, except you completely fail to play him, at live its exactly the other way around, the fdk will be globaled by the feral instantly and there is no way to prevent it.

Yeah met Ferals that don't cd stack and let them get big hits into the back, like the op here, who runs when he shouldn't, and do not find the shift out of roots hotkey. Let them pretend Frost dks global them now. yeah....let us pretend ferals have no shit against that.....

The question here really is, why to refuse to learn to play your class, why reroll for reasions no one can understand with his mind right. Its like saying i reroll rogue, cause my warri gets killed by him, or i reroll mage cause my hunter has trouble vs mages, or i reroll a dk cause a healer will kill my dk....?

Why putting false arguments? Why not saying: i reroll cause i like the playstyle of dk more than a feral? I would accept that. Anyways feral tears cause of frost dk abilities is the most ridiculous thing i saw in a while and i read the blizz forums too......O.o

I wonder if you do any duelling feral vs dk, i did plenty, in both ways.

I really rest my case here, not much worth my time. Btw, my feral is not my main, but arena alt.

I think you COMPLETELY missed the point of my post. This thread isn't about me rerolling because I get globalled as a feral, it's because I'm bored of my feral and seek to play a new class. You're the one starting a feral vs (f)dk scenario here.

Also, like I said earlier. I'm not a freaking idiot, you know? I KNOW HOW TO PLAY AND I KNOW WHEN IM LOSING. Hence why I'm running away. By the time I have 150k hp~, no offensives left and facing a frost dk with full hp, what would you do? Go in, yolo like leeroy jenkins and get your face melted, or run away in an attempt of surviving and coming back later? If you chose the first option, then why even bother posting at all?

I also CD stack, I CD stack A LOT. I cd stack with my tigers fury and my synapse springs and on use trinket.

I'm also not refusing to learn my class/spec. I know enough of both feral and balance not to lose to complete mongloids and win versus equally geared/skilled players ad my gear is full dreadful, resil gemmed + t1.

And you saying frost dks cant hit ferals hard? I beg to differ? I was doing a simple kotmogu bg, fought a dk who basically killed me through my barkskin without ANYTHING I could've done. He hit me with a 67k obliterate, into a 72k oblierate into a 45k frost strike into a 77k obliterate through barkskin. Want to know the funny part? I had all of my offensives up and was hitting him with 25k-50k ravages until I got hit by the final 77k obliterate.

Please read my first post before you start posting yourself about spec X versus spec Y. Telling me I should l2p and ferals aren't squishy is just idiotic to say.

Now I'm gonna copy you on the one thing I have to agree with you about; I also rest my case here.

To the guy that said there is no difference in Frost vs Unholy survivability, he is just wrong. There is a huge difference.

1.) Blood presence. You have to sit in blood a lot. Frost loses RP generation, CC reduction and reduced frost strike cost. That means they generate runes slower and do less damage (and death strike healing). Unholy can sit in blood the whole game if they choose because all they effectively lose is 10% run speed and a second on rune regeneration.

2.) Kite damage. A frost DK that is kiting is doing zero damage. In order for a frost DK to kite they have to use the very runes they need to do ranged damage. An unholy DK however is generating RP while kiting you that he uses for ranged attacks that empower his ghoul beating on you and his gargoyle.

3.) Healing. A frost DK has to summon a ghoul and then sac it, which sometimes is one GCD too slow. A Frost DK cannot heal as much with lichborne and uses it mostly for a fear break. A frost DK that is spamming deathstrike to stay alive is doing almost no damage (because they are probably in blood pres). An unholy already has a pet up so sac is instant (going to be conversion awesomeness). An unholy gets more out of lichborne heals because of higher strength and lower death coil cost. An unholy DK can spam death strike and still do good damage because of pets.

Just some examples of how Frost is no where near Unholy in terms of survivability. I did not even mention pet utility... The reason why there are so many frost DKs out there is because they burst on command with no buildup. Comps now are about popping CDs and instant CC and gibbing someone. Unholy is a more deliberate and controlled spec that just does not fit into the new arena. When the average arena match goes up from 3 minutes in length to something closer to 10 minutes in length then you will see frost go the way it has always been in arena.

As far as RBG are concerned, unholy can actually put out more damage than frost and have the same tools, they just can't spin flags like frost can. A frost DK can keep a flag contested for a very long time from range, an unholy cannot which is why frost gets taken over unholy.

Thanks for those points. I totally forgot about the death coil healing and I didn't know blood presence camping affected unholy less than frost. Also the pet sac thing I was already aware of. How much does Death Strike actually heal for?

And how do frost dks have it easier spinning flags? Because of their low CD burst CDs?

[kleinlax21]

This is an awesome reply to my questions. You really clarified things up for me.

I will most definately try out DK again, and I just finished setting up my ideal UI (clear sight on runes, runic power and pet shadow infusion procs). I, myself have been wondering a lot about DK and the fancy stuff they can pull off, which involve Dark Sim (ofc), Death Grips and stuff, which basically sealed the deal for me and made my decision final.

One thing I'm wondering, which glyphs do DKs usually use? Right now this http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/tal...!000000!abXiQn is my choice of build. But seeing as you mentioned 1.5 min stun breaker, you probably took the IBF glyph. You also mentioned DnD slow, which makes me think you also took the DnD glyph.
Should I replace my anti magic shell and strang glyph with those glyphs? Or use whatever I think feels right?

I definitely recommend the IBF glyph, as its a 1.5 minute trinket for stuns only, and considering the damage reduction is garbage for its cooldown, I use it almost exclusively to break stuns. The DnD glyph, however, only really shines like a place similar to the Yellow Gate on Strand of the Ancients where people are funneled through one path. It's also good for making it harder for enemies to pillar hump, but other than that its useless.

Looking at your glyphs, I recommend you at least try out the IBF Glyph as well as the Icy Touch glyph, as an offensive dispel is quite a valuable addition to our toolkit. Of the glyphs you have now, Dark Sim is the best and you shouldn't ditch it. But as far as glyphed AMS and Strang go, I'd try out other things and see if you like them. Considering I use Strang almost exclusively as a silence due to its uncomfortable rune cost, I dropped it a while back in favor of glyphed Icy Touch. But most importantly, do what you want as far as glyphs are concerned.

Good to hear you will be joining us on the battlefields in 5.2

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 01:21 PM ----------

To the guy that said there is no difference in Frost vs Unholy survivability, he is just wrong. There is a huge difference.

1.) Blood presence. You have to sit in blood a lot. Frost loses RP generation, CC reduction and reduced frost strike cost. That means they generate runes slower and do less damage (and death strike healing). Unholy can sit in blood the whole game if they choose because all they effectively lose is 10% run speed and a second on rune regeneration.

2.) Kite damage. A frost DK that is kiting is doing zero damage. In order for a frost DK to kite they have to use the very runes they need to do ranged damage. An unholy DK however is generating RP while kiting you that he uses for ranged attacks that empower his ghoul beating on you and his gargoyle.

3.) Healing. A frost DK has to summon a ghoul and then sac it, which sometimes is one GCD too slow. A Frost DK cannot heal as much with lichborne and uses it mostly for a fear break. A frost DK that is spamming deathstrike to stay alive is doing almost no damage (because they are probably in blood pres). An unholy already has a pet up so sac is instant (going to be conversion awesomeness). An unholy gets more out of lichborne heals because of higher strength and lower death coil cost. An unholy DK can spam death strike and still do good damage because of pets.

Just some examples of how Frost is no where near Unholy in terms of survivability. I did not even mention pet utility... The reason why there are so many frost DKs out there is because they burst on command with no buildup. Comps now are about popping CDs and instant CC and gibbing someone. Unholy is a more deliberate and controlled spec that just does not fit into the new arena. When the average arena match goes up from 3 minutes in length to something closer to 10 minutes in length then you will see frost go the way it has always been in arena.

As far as RBG are concerned, unholy can actually put out more damage than frost and have the same tools, they just can't spin flags like frost can. A frost DK can keep a flag contested for a very long time from range, an unholy cannot which is why frost gets taken over unholy.

Thanks for correcting my incorrect assertion! I appreciate you clearing up my, admittedly accidental, spreading of false information. I don't play Unholy a lot, if you couldn't already tell

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 01:25 PM ----------

Thanks for those points. I totally forgot about the death coil healing and I didn't know blood presence camping affected unholy less than frost. Also the pet sac thing I was already aware of. How much does Death Strike actually heal for?

And how do frost dks have it easier spinning flags? Because of their low CD burst CDs?

I think he was commenting on Frost's nearly unmatched ability to AoE flags and keep them contested due almost exclusively to Howling Blast.

[Senathor]

I would recommend that all DKs in the entire world go Unholy from time to time if they want to keep their brain working properly.

[Tyrean]

Yeah, it is because of Howling blast. You can howling blast a flag non stop because you have 4 runes with which to do it. Howling blast is a direct AoE which interrupts and it has range and does enough damage to eat through smaller shields. The Unholy DK only option for stopping flag caps is blood boil, which he has to be in melee range to do and you are not always in melee to stop flag caps.

I cannot tell you how many times we have been fighting on flags for 1-2 minutes and I finally go down and I tell my team I am down and the flag gets capped while I sit in the GY. People start to take for granted how easy and effective it is for a frost DK to spin flags and put out pressure.

[Damaros]

To the guy that said there is no difference in Frost vs Unholy survivability, he is just wrong. There is a huge difference.

1.) Blood presence. You have to sit in blood a lot. Frost loses RP generation, CC reduction and reduced frost strike cost. That means they generate runes slower and do less damage (and death strike healing). Unholy can sit in blood the whole game if they choose because all they effectively lose is 10% run speed and a second on rune regeneration.

2.) Kite damage. A frost DK that is kiting is doing zero damage. In order for a frost DK to kite they have to use the very runes they need to do ranged damage. An unholy DK however is generating RP while kiting you that he uses for ranged attacks that empower his ghoul beating on you and his gargoyle.

3.) Healing. A frost DK has to summon a ghoul and then sac it, which sometimes is one GCD too slow. A Frost DK cannot heal as much with lichborne and uses it mostly for a fear break. A frost DK that is spamming deathstrike to stay alive is doing almost no damage (because they are probably in blood pres). An unholy already has a pet up so sac is instant (going to be conversion awesomeness). An unholy gets more out of lichborne heals because of higher strength and lower death coil cost. An unholy DK can spam death strike and still do good damage because of pets.

Just some examples of how Frost is no where near Unholy in terms of survivability. I did not even mention pet utility... The reason why there are so many frost DKs out there is because they burst on command with no buildup. Comps now are about popping CDs and instant CC and gibbing someone. Unholy is a more deliberate and controlled spec that just does not fit into the new arena. When the average arena match goes up from 3 minutes in length to something closer to 10 minutes in length then you will see frost go the way it has always been in arena.

As far as RBG are concerned, unholy can actually put out more damage than frost and have the same tools, they just can't spin flags like frost can. A frost DK can keep a flag contested for a very long time from range, an unholy cannot which is why frost gets taken over unholy.

Dude.. You don't need a 2nd GCD to sac your ghoul, it's off the GCD. Just do a macro and it will be instant, the same as unholy. I know you probably play unholy but don't spread misinformation. 2nd thing, Death Strike spamming. You already use these runes for Obliterate so of course your damage will be lower but it feels much more natural to spam DS as a Frost DK since your unholy/frost rune will often regen at the same time (or like for Obliterate, since you have Death runes instead of Blood runes, any combination of 2 different runes will work). As Unholy, you'll need to have unholy/frost together, but since you use unholy runes on SS and Frost/Blood on FS, if you don't have any death runes coming up, it can mess things up pretty easily.

Also, it is true that as frost you lack the pet utility. But, pet control has always been clunky with awkward use of energy which will sometime leads to your pet abilities not firing up. Frost w/ chillblains bring something similar than what Unholy DKs were bringing in the past with Desecration. Since you'll often use Howling Blast at range, you'll always keep your targets slowed 100% of the time with little to no effort.

And talking about arenas, we need to talk about comps, the class alone isn't enough. And frost DKs bring some great synergy with warriors with your slows and burst damage. TSG (with frost DK) is actually probably one of the only comp you can play at high MMR. But this comp do so much damage you can train the healer all night long all the way to 2.2k lol