Is warcraft better of with mediocre or weakened ellves?

[Mace]

Tolkein elves are a bit mary suish and too perfect. While I would love to see the night elves given some love, I think making them 'super humans' that are always wise would be boring.

i must respectfully disagree, anyone who thinks perfect is boring, hasn't met with people who are far closer to the ideal in actual practice, it is anything but boring. and although all are entitlted to their opinions, i find it incredibly hard to believe that you have read Tolkein's works and will conclude that the elves in his realm are boring. They are not flawless either, altho compared to the standards of others they might as well be perfect.

maybe it is modern day genres that really don't portray perfect or just and righteous as anything exciting, all the exciting stuff is thrown into the evil looking monsters, older works paint quite a different story, and meeting some amazing peple in real life that are very rare but very real would very quickly open your eyes. if i spent too much time watching these types of vids and playing these types of games only exposed to most of modern day entertainment as my education on humanity, i would probably feel as you do, tv shows tend to paint the perfect or near perfect guy as either very boring or hiding some deep dark secret, my experience has been quite different.

suffice it to say, perfect or near perfect certainly doesn't have to be boring, as a writer you determine whether it is or not. Maybe that's how the blizz writers swing

[Skytotem]

Mace, tolkien-style just won't work with the night elves or high elves because they have no reason to be anywhere near as passive as their Lotr counterparts do, also, I'm gonna have to disagree with the 'perfect' thing, I mean hell, I read some of the books and all I felt was contempt for the elves inaction, I don't really give a care how awesome they are if they don't do anything.

I'll agree the night elves need some love and repair from the devs, but they shouldn't automatically be superior to everyone in everything by virtue of their age

[Mace]

The vision of elves, so different to Tolkien, is what makes me like Warcraft above other games. I like the more egalitarian outlook of the races, they are pretty much in the same playfield.

I'm not really a fan of Tolkien elves, they were just too removed from the world, content with keeping their secrets and awaiting the end. It wasn't until warcraft III that I started liking elves, the kaldorei fascinated me, and Sylvanas had sass; and then the blood elves in the expansion, they where really different to the elves I had seen.

that was not how i recall the Tolkein elves, and actually, Tolkein seems to be the only one that has done a dcent job of portraying an immortal , excelling humans race of people. I think most of the copy cats havent really delved into his works, they've watched or read lotr then jumped to conclusions about the elves and portrayed them like that.

there are certain things that go along with having loads of experience living increidbly long, and certian things that don't fit that model, you don't expect the level of ineptitude blizz are showing night elves to be.

Anyway, Tolkein's Elves were not removed from the world at all, the dwarves were a lot closer to that, more content to stick to their mountains and find more treasure than engage or help anyone. You look at Tolkein's further works, adn the ELves were very proactive in middle earth affairs for 2 ages, they carreid the brunt of the work and force needed to keep the jaws of evil from strangling and destroying middle earth. Lord of the Rings set in the 3rd age, sees the Elves or more a remnatn of the Elves, most of them already left middle earth before itw as fully realized that by the guardians that it was Sauron indeed that had returned. And when that happened, we see it was largely Men and Elves. the few that remained didn't just sit by, they go on to assist the men of Rohan, and then later the assault on Mordor. and again we see not all show benevolence and that level of nobility, Cos not all the Elven kingdoms rallied for the 3rd age struggle, Humans had not been invited to the west, , they were stuck in middle earth, they would have to deal with it, itwas their problem now, after having fought and one two potential world ending ages, the elves would have every right to stick to their guns and say, this is no longer our fight, Middle Earth no longer our homes, but many do go help anyway, even though it may mean death. And death for an Elf in tolkein's universe means something different to death for a human, if you read the extended universe, it is far more final for them. But still they came.

and yet some didn't. So, by just watching Lord of the Rings, you may think tolkein's elves were removed form tehworld, but he doesn't write them like that when you read the book and when you delve into the full scale of the middle earth saga and his whole world not at all.

And you can be diminishing in the world as a power without being made to look like a fool. Like Tolkein's Elves, the night elves' great feats are in the past, they interfere little now what's going on, but they are not diminished. he writes them well, and sure i understand that Warcarft is a video game, and because NElves are playable well they can't be ultimate.. butas others have stated, you don't have to give them super stats in order to write them as wise , beautiful, power and long lived. you just have to write them well, or in this instance, i'll settle for better

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 06:17 AM ----------

Mace, tolkien-style just won't work with the night elves or high elves because they have no reason to be anywhere near as passive as their Lotr counterparts do, also, I'm gonna have to disagree with the 'perfect' thing, I mean hell, I read some of the books and all I felt was contempt for the elves inaction, I don't really give a care how awesome they are if they don't do anything.

I'll agree the night elves need some love and repair from the devs, but they shouldn't automatically be superior to everyone in everything by virtue of their age

read my post above, i will just add also, that after so much loss of life in the 2nd age, Isildur could have ended evil once and for all by throwing the ring away into the fire of mount doom, his failure is what causes the near disastrous events at the end of the 3rd age where the Lord of the Rings trilogy is set - ofc a lot of elves who were there would still be alive, if they hadn't already left for greyhaven by the time Sauron was re-discovered, would they be wrong to tell humans, "not my business" your mess, you fix it - but that's not what happened was it. most of the elves have long since left middle earth by the time they find out Sauron indeed has returned, and it is clear that those that are still there definitely care. ou don't send armies out to a war you don't have to fight if you didn't.

anyway Tolkein's elves are not flawless, they don't without question always do acts out of goodness. Thandruil turns his elven forces away from Erebor when Smaug attacks the mountian, the good thing would have been to help anyway. Sure his arguments are the dwarves brought this on themselves, too greedily delving for treasure, too self consumed, , their forefathers doing very little to protect the world when Elves were been slaughteredt o save it in the first age, and elves and the men of Numenor in the second age. now his army has arrived, it is too late, and not worth the cost to lives to attmept to remove Smaug, so he turns ihis forces back. Now some of you would say he did the right thing by his people, others would disagree. Elf - dwarf relations detriorate rapidly again after that point.

what is clear, is that not all elves think or act alike, they don't alwyas do the good thing, the good thing would have been to help the dwarves, the right thing for their men would have been to turn back. and yet only the Elves showed up to help the dwarves, where were the humans? They showed up to fight, but arrived to late, and wouldn't recklessly commit to a fight, so the dwarves resent them for turning back.

[Justignoreme]

Bring back the matriarchal society and the amazon warriors that are the true night elves.

Night Elves aren't really a matriarchal society. Male surnames are the family names, women do a majority of the grunt work, which includes civil defense and waging war. No, not matriarchal, more like a pride of lions, with a big, maned male sleeping 23 hours out of 24 hours in a day, then spending one hour roars, stretching, chasing off hyenas and mating while females hunt, rear young, defend their territory and so on.

Mace, Night Elves were not written, even in their inception, as infinitely wise beings. They were written as tough, skilled, martial people, bringing incredibly well made, professionally-wielded blades and bows to bear, and if necessary calling down the fury of Nature and the channeling the power of their Goddess to lay waste to their enemies. True, they had a lot of experience within their long lives with dealing with major threats, but they also come about from a different perspective, one only they (and perhaps the Draenei) can understand which is, in 1000 years after the actions of some human/orc have been long forgotten, and even the great grandchildren of the actor are dead and gone, they'll have to deal with the consequences, arguably alone, which is why they can come off, wrongfully so, as "arrogant" since they really don't want to have to deal with it.

Outside the battlefield they have rather normal lives, with identifiable cultural cues and traditions. The only ones who fancied themselves supreme were elves like Maiev and those of her ilk or the otherside of the coin, the Highborne whom also considered themselves better than the average Kal'dorei. We know what that mindset lead to. Humans are good at what they do, Night Elves *should* be good at what they do and what the two races do, while there is overlap, is largely different. In WoW Night Elves are no longer good at what they used to do, short of Druid crap. Humans show up and show they are better at doing everything Night Elves used to do and their experience, memories, and so on, are rendered wrong and meaningless, time and again, which is the problem. Not that humans do everything better, it's that they do it better cause Night Elves are shown to be doing it so clearly wrong. Analogy: Blizz would write Night Elves as making square wheels then a human crudely mashes it into a circle and it works properly...

[TheDangerZone]

that was not how i recall the Tolkein elves, and actually, Tolkein seems to be the only one that has done a dcent job of portraying an immortal , excelling humans race of people. I think most of the copy cats havent really delved into his works, they've watched or read lotr then jumped to conclusions about the elves and portrayed them like that.

there are certain things that go along with having loads of experience living increidbly long, and certian things that don't fit that model, you don't expect the level of ineptitude blizz are showing night elves to be.

Anyway, Tolkein's Elves were not removed from the world at all, the dwarves were a lot closer to that, more content to stick to their mountains and find more treasure than engage or help anyone. You look at Tolkein's further works, adn the ELves were very proactive in middle earth affairs for 2 ages, they carreid the brunt of the work and force needed to keep the jaws of evil from strangling and destroying middle earth. Lord of the Rings set in the 3rd age, sees the Elves or more a remnatn of the Elves, most of them already left middle earth before itw as fully realized that by the guardians that it was Sauron indeed that had returned. And when that happened, we see it was largely Men and Elves. the few that remained didn't just sit by, they go on to assist the men of Rohan, and then later the assault on Mordor. and again we see not all show benevolence and that level of nobility, Cos not all the Elven kingdoms rallied for the 3rd age struggle, Humans had not been invited to the west, , they were stuck in middle earth, they would have to deal with it, itwas their problem now, after having fought and one two potential world ending ages, the elves would have every right to stick to their guns and say, this is no longer our fight, Middle Earth no longer our homes, but many do go help anyway, even though it may mean death. And death for an Elf in tolkein's universe means something different to death for a human, if you read the extended universe, it is far more final for them. But still they came.

and yet some didn't. So, by just watching Lord of the Rings, you may think tolkein's elves were removed form tehworld, but he doesn't write them like that when you read the book and when you delve into the full scale of the middle earth saga and his whole world not at all.

And you can be diminishing in the world as a power without being made to look like a fool. Like Tolkein's Elves, the night elves' great feats are in the past, they interfere little now what's going on, but they are not diminished. he writes them well, and sure i understand that Warcarft is a video game, and because NElves are playable well they can't be ultimate.. butas others have stated, you don't have to give them super stats in order to write them as wise , beautiful, power and long lived. you just have to write them well, or in this instance, i'll settle for better

You express yourself very eloquently, but you are more than slightly biased on your posture.

As I don't intend on change your opinions, we'll leave it at that. Let's just say that different people have different interpretations of what Tolkien elves are and that I consider's yours too favorably.

And I'm too one of the ones that consider perfect boring. It is our flaws what impulse us to be better.

[Mace]

so why do blizzard struggle so in writing about night elves? why are they so rubbishy and fumbling? They've demonstrated they can write a race in well, i mean they did so with the same very night elves in wc3, and seem to be doing so with blood elves, humans and orcs.

you may disagree with my view on tolkein elves, i do hold to them, their character and nature is extensively covered in the less popular works of Tolkein, where the attractiveness of their near perfect character and bearing is far more prominent, the backstory in there also quite readily sets up their behaviour and reactions in the Lord of the Rings which would put them in a far more favourable light than most haters or non-lovers view them.

Still the model is different, which you would expect, between the two elves, there are fumbling elves, but do night elves have to be it? and what is the future of high elves now, they seem indistinguishable from blood elves who have just become horde high elves. But i suppose that is what a lot of people who play blood elves, they want to be high elves but not necessarily in the alliance. Given how non-human alliance races are been written though, it's actually a blessing in disguise isn't it.

[Wildmoon]

I think Malfurion sum it up what's wrong with NE people and Tyrande in general well with this sentence. "If pride gives us pause, my love, then perhaps we have lived long enough already." I like Mal's attitude.