Why does socialized medicine suck again?

[Catta]

Having such a system run by the government is not such a great idea. Government run organizations are brutally inefficient and slow, cough USPS.

Says who? Just because you are doing it wrong doesn't mean that it is wrong.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 03:36 AM ----------

I know anecdotal evidence is just that, but, I think socialized medicine, if done right, would greatly benefit the U.S. My mother has an almost $100,000 dollar hospital bill for when my father was on life support for 6 1/2 days. The insurance company they had paid around $15,000 I think, leaving her an adjusted bill of about $80-85,000 dollars. She is on a fixed income of approximately 1100/month. When she dies that bill will still not be paid and we will have to sell her house/property to cover it.

Plain ludicrous that something as important as health care is governed as a for profit business.

That. That is an inexcusable system.

[yurano]

I don't understand how our insurance model relates to our level of technology though. Its not like its insurance companies developing that stuff.

One way hospitals are ranked is through research standing.

The requirements for a Level 1 Trauma Center include "an education program" and "a program of research".

I know anecdotal evidence is just that, but, I think socialized medicine, if done right, would greatly benefit the U.S. My mother has an almost $100,000 dollar hospital bill for when my father was on life support for 6 1/2 days. The insurance company they had paid around $15,000 I think, leaving her an adjusted bill of about $80-85,000 dollars. She is on a fixed income of approximately 1100/month. When she dies that bill will still not be paid and we will have to sell her house/property to cover it.

Plain ludicrous that something as important as health care is governed as a for profit business.

On socialized medicine, you may not have had the option for life support.

I would think that increased demand for high end medical technologies would drive demand for them far more than a few rich consumers.

Not if no one is willing to pay for it. Expensive private insurance is more willing to pay for expensive technologies than Medicaid/Medicare is. Mainly because expensive private insurance has a larger budget per person.

[Annapolis]

I know anecdotal evidence is just that, but, I think socialized medicine, if done right, would greatly benefit the U.S. My mother has an almost $100,000 dollar hospital bill for when my father was on life support for 6 1/2 days. The insurance company they had paid around $15,000 I think, leaving her an adjusted bill of about $80-85,000 dollars. She is on a fixed income of approximately 1100/month. When she dies that bill will still not be paid and we will have to sell her house/property to cover it.

Plain ludicrous that something as important as health care is governed as a for profit business.

First of all, I'm sorry to hear about your father's health.

However you must consider that in the United States we can keep people alive who might otherwise have been let go in other countries. Treatments and costs for socialized medicine are dictated by government policy and not by demand. So your father's life support may not have been covered at all in another country because it might be deemed too expensive for the potential outcomes. In the United States much more is available, but it just comes out of pocket when your insurance company decides it wont' cover a treatment fully.

I'm not trying to say this is directly applicable to your case and I'm sorry about the situation your family has been left in.

[geewhiz80]

One way hospitals are ranked is through research standing.

The requirements for a Level 1 Trauma Center include "an education program" and "a program of research".



On socialized medicine, you may not have had the option for life support.



Not if no one is willing to pay for it. Expensive private insurance is more willing to pay for expensive technologies than Medicaid/Medicare is.

To be quite blunt, honestly the life support wouldn't have made a difference. My father's heart and kidneys were failing, as well as a massive tumor in his lung.

Edit: should've said that this was almost 2 years ago, and he passed as soon as life support was terminated.

One more edit: I understand that if it is a situation where they've tried everything and the situation keeps deteriorating that life support could be denied. In a way I understand that, but, at the same time I would expect everything that can be tried would be tried before that point.

[yurano]

To be quite blunt, honestly the life support wouldn't have made a difference. My father's heart and kidneys were failing, as well as a massive tumor in his lung.

Even in that case, some people with very deep pockets may have been willing to shell that kind of money for slightly prolonged life. Under socialized medicine, that service may not even be available. Insurance policies largely dictate which treatments are available to the consumer.

[geewhiz80]

Even in that case, some people with very deep pockets may have been willing to shell that kind of money for slightly prolonged life. Under socialized medicine, that service may not even be available. Insurance policies largely dictate which treatments are available to the consumer.

I honestly feel that if I were in a persistent vegetative state or, like in my father's situation, unconscious slowly dying, that I wouldn't want things to be prolonged. It's just unnatural if you ask me.

[DEATHETERNAL]

I just had non-essential surgery and it left me with a bill of around 15 USD. This procedure would've cost around 6000 dollars if I had funded it privately....

You showed why it is bad right in your own post if that cost reduction is due to socialized medicine. You get to have non-essential surgeries and force the rest of us to pay for your unneeded expense.

Why force those who work to keep themselves healthy to pay for those who willfully allow themselves to become unhealthy (yes, some don' choose to be unhealthy but the vast majority of the unhealthy choose to live unhealthy lifestyles that crate the situation in the first place and those are the people that would be subsidized) or for those who want unneeded procedures?

That is nothing more than theft. I want a nice car and can’t afford it. I don’t really need it, but the government should force society to give me money for it anyway. That would be theft and is no different than getting the government to take money to fund your unneeded surgery.

If the cost reduction of the procedure is from private insurance rather than socialized medicine, that’s the free market benefiting you, not socialized medicine.

[namelessone]

Someone had to pay for it.. Free stuff is only awesome for the one getting it. Isn't it obvious that those who had to paid for it complain and don't want it..

No one specifically has to pay for it. Everyone chips in, and it's available to everyone. So when you are paying for socialized medicine, you aren't really paying for some guy's surgery, you are paying for the betterment of your entire nation. It comes down to social responsibility. If I am a member of a society that allows people to die hungry or sick on the streets, it reflects poorly on me, and it affects me.

[geewhiz80]

You showed why it is bad right in your own post if that cost reduction is due to socialized medicine. You get to have non-essential surgeries and force the rest of us to pay for your unneeded expense.

Why force those who work to keep themselves healthy to pay for those who willfully allow themselves to become unhealthy (yes, some don' choose to be unhealthy but the vast majority of the unhealthy choose to live unhealthy lifestyles that crate the situation in the first place and those are the people that would be subsidized) or for those who want unneeded procedures?

That is nothing more than theft. I want a nice car and can’t afford it. I don’t really need it, but the government should force society to give me money for it anyway. That would be theft and is no different than getting the government to take money to fund your unneeded surgery.

If the cost reduction of the procedure is from private insurance rather than socialized medicine, that’s the free market benefiting you, not socialized medicine.

So private insurers that charge hundreds of dollars per month to cover 1 person should be able to say "Oh we're not gonna cover that cause you went to this doctor instead of the doctor we told you to go to"? Healthcare should be something that no one should ever have bankrupt them. Greed is the problem more than anything else if you ask me.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 09:02 PM ----------

No one specifically has to pay for it. Everyone chips in, and it's available to everyone. So when you are paying for socialized medicine, you aren't really paying for some guy's surgery, you are paying for the betterment of your entire nation. It comes down to social responsibility. If I am a member of a society that allows people to die hungry or sick on the streets, it reflects poorly on me, and it affects me.

That just has too much logic in it, it must be heresy!

[yurano]

No one specifically has to pay for it. Everyone chips in, and it's available to everyone. So when you are paying for socialized medicine, you aren't really paying for some guy's surgery, you are paying for the betterment of your entire nation. It comes down to social responsibility. If I am a member of a society that allows people to die hungry or sick on the streets, it reflects poorly on me, and it affects me.

As with most taxes, the rich pay more. The first part of your logic is flawed.

There is a strong opinion in the US that many are hungry/sick due to their own actions. Plus, American are more upset with welfare abuse than pretty much anything else.

[namelessone]

As with most taxes, the rich pay more. The first part of your logic is flawed.

There is a strong opinion in the US that many are hungry/sick due to their own actions. Plus, American are more upset with welfare abuse than pretty much anything else.

"The rich" have more power due to lobbying and unfair political influence. I don't see it as unfair that their share would be bigger. As for welfare abuse - I understand that it's a concern, but frankly, when you get the real numbers, you may find that it costs more to investigate every single case and add up the bureaucracy instead of just leaving it as it is. It's like with "voter fraud", when measures to prevent it affect more legitimate voters than fraud cases.

[geewhiz80]

As with most taxes, the rich pay more. The first part of your logic is flawed.

There is a strong opinion in the US that many are hungry/sick due to their own actions. Plus, American are more upset with welfare abuse than pretty much anything else.

The rich should be paying more in taxes, ONLY based on the fact that 1% of 1,000,000 is more than 1% of 10,000. Everyone should be required to pay the same percentage of their earnings as a tax liability. The problem with that is the U.S. tax code allows way too many exemptions from tax liabilities.

[Nuke1096]

Having such a system run by the government is not such a great idea. Government run organizations are brutally inefficient and slow, cough USPS.

Way off the mark. Medicare operates at around 2-3% overhead, where as your average private insurance company is around 11-13%. Medicare is much more efficient. Even with all the things going against it that wouldn't be there in a Single Payer System. The restriction that prevents Medicare from negotiating drug prices for example.

[DEATHETERNAL]

So private insurers that charge hundreds of dollars per month to cover 1 person should be able to say "Oh we're not gonna cover that cause you went to this doctor instead of the doctor we told you to go to"? Healthcare should be something that no one should ever have bankrupt them. Greed is the problem more than anything else if you ask me.

If you agreed to the conditions of an insurance policy and violate them, why would you expect to have something covered? You are the one clearly in the wrong.

Greed is the problem. Greed of those who want something unneeded they can't pay for and would have it paid for by theft. Greed of those who wasted what was given to them such that in their dire need, they must have funding stolen from others to support them. Greed of those who willfully abused and disabled their own bodies and then expect the more sensible people to pick up the tab to fix their bodies or subsidize their living.

If you really want a system devoid of greed, eliminate government interference in the health care industry entirely and have charity be responsible for those who cannot afford what they need. Socialized medicine is simply the total fulfillment of the greed of set of people, not its elimination.

That just has too much logic in it, it must be heresy!

It has no logic in it as its premise is false. Yes, you are paying for that guy’s unneeded surgery.

[Deleted]

If I need surgery to keep me alive... I'm not going to give a damn who does it, so long as he's trained well and knows what they're doing. Also, private surgeons have waiting lists too, you know. It's not like I can call my doctor up tonight and get some surgery done in a few hours.

If you want to see my Father you have to wait upwards of 4 months. This is a private only surgeon.

[yurano]

Way off the mark. Medicare operates at around 2-3% overhead, where as your average private insurance company is around 11-13%. Medicare is much more efficient. Even with all the things going against it that wouldn't be there in a Single Payer System. The restriction that prevents Medicare from negotiating drug prices for example.

Source? 10char

If you want to see my Father you have to wait upwards of 4 months. This is a private only surgeon.

Maybe its because he's an excellent surgeon.

If I was looking for a surgeon for a non-life threatening treatment (eg. total knee replacement), I would be willing to wait and pay more for a better surgeon.

Maybe your father provides service at a very competitive price. People might be willing to wait to pay less for surgery.

For anything life threatening, I doubt you have to wait. The fees are probably so exorbitant that those surgeons don't have full rosters. Maybe those surgeons will push down non-life threatening surgeries for a life threatening surgery.

[mjolnir1122]

Ya like the production of our food, oh wait thats already been privatized and we have no control over it whats so ever

There is so much processed junk these days, im thinking about going freaking vegetarian

It's probably just as unhealthy to go vegetarian will all of the freakin pesticides they use. Never in a million years did I ever think I would say this, but nowadays it seems more beneficial to your health to buy meats, fruits, and veggies that are....organic *shivers*

[geewhiz80]

If you agreed to the conditions of an insurance policy and violate them, why would you expect to have something covered? You are the one clearly in the wrong.

Greed is the problem. Greed of those who want something unneeded they can't pay for and would have it paid for by theft. Greed of those who wasted what was given to them such that in their dire need, they must have funding stolen from others to support them. Greed of those who willfully abused and disabled their own bodies and then expect the more sensible people to pick up the tab to fix their bodies or subsidize their living.

If you really want a system devoid of greed, eliminate government interference in the health care industry entirely and have charity be responsible for those who cannot afford what they need. Socialized medicine is simply the total fulfillment of the greed of set of people, not its elimination.


It has no logic in it as its premise is false. Yes, you are paying for that guy’s unneeded surgery.

Maybe I should have stated that differently. Do you think that it is right that a company that accepts hundreds of dollars a month from tens of thousands of people every month, should be allowed to say that they won't cover something simply because it's not good for their profit margins?

Also, when you need surgery under socialized medicine, guess what, now he's paying for your surgery.

Why is everyone so against making the world better off for the less fortunate?

[Wells]

If you agreed to the conditions of an insurance policy and violate them, why would you expect to have something covered? You are the one clearly in the wrong.

Greed is the problem. Greed of those who want something unneeded they can't pay for and would have it paid for by theft. Greed of those who wasted what was given to them such that in their dire need, they must have funding stolen from others to support them. Greed of those who willfully abused and disabled their own bodies and then expect the more sensible people to pick up the tab to fix their bodies or subsidize their living.

If you really want a system devoid of greed, eliminate government interference in the health care industry entirely and have charity be responsible for those who cannot afford what they need. Socialized medicine is simply the total fulfillment of the greed of set of people, not its elimination.


It has no logic in it as its premise is false. Yes, you are paying for that guy’s unneeded surgery.

Yeah never mind that these systems perform better and cost less! Better to just get hung up on rhetoric.

[yurano]

Maybe I should have stated that differently. Do you think that it is right that a company that accepts hundreds of dollars a month from tens of thousands of people every month, should be allowed to say that they won't cover something simply because it's not good for their profit margins?

Yeah why not? Private insurances don't exactly have the largest profit margins.

Why is everyone so against making the world better off for the less fortunate?

Because no one wants to pay for it.

Yeah never mind that these systems perform better and cost less! Better to just get hung up on rhetoric.

Prove it. The fact that Medicare/Medicaid are efficient has been tossed around a lot but I haven't seen a legitimate source that demonstrates this. No, pro-Single Payer/Socialized Medicine websites don't count.