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  1. #2161
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    I meant that line as more of an indictment on Kanrethad (in that an encounter where just a snare and waterwalking feels more warlocky than the purposely designed warlock encounter).
    so just because you don't use a pit lord during normal play the encounter is bad? it still tests your pet management somewhat(although it's probably the easiest part). doing anything else besides giving you a pet to tank the boss would change all other mechanics up, it had to be done. is it just that you are bitter that you can't beat the encounter and let it out in this way? keep trying, eventually you'll succeed. that's what challenge is all about.

  2. #2162
    Quote Originally Posted by sayulol View Post
    so just because you don't use a pit lord during normal play the encounter is bad? it still tests your pet management somewhat(although it's probably the easiest part). doing anything else besides giving you a pet to tank the boss would change all other mechanics up, it had to be done. is it just that you are bitter that you can't beat the encounter and let it out in this way? keep trying, eventually you'll succeed. that's what challenge is all about.
    I feel the encounter is inappropriately designed. It's like if you went to get a drivers license and the test involved operating a backhoe.

  3. #2163
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    I feel the encounter is inappropriately designed. It's like if you went to get a drivers license and the test involved operating a backhoe.
    Still have to disagree. This is likely the best designed, class-specific questline/boss in-game. The mere fact that you said what you did about G'nathus makes me think you are either looking for ways to discredit the Kanrethad encounter (because it is just too hard for you), or you may just be a bit delusional. Could be both I guess...

    I will flay your mind.

  4. #2164
    Quote Originally Posted by Reposed View Post
    Still have to disagree. This is likely the best designed, class-specific questline/boss in-game. The mere fact that you said what you did about G'nathus makes me think you are either looking for ways to discredit the Kanrethad encounter (because it is just too hard for you), or you may just be a bit delusional. Could be both I guess...
    How many other class-specific bosses are there? Sure, I guess it's the best by default if it's the only one. There ARE parts of the questline that are well done, particularly the Black Temple run (minus the idiotic "Hey, let's steal gems!" part); we coulda used more of that.

    Why do you feel the encounter is so well done? Mental exercise: if a device was placed to allow Pit Lord control, which classes would not be able to do the encounter?

  5. #2165
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    How many other class-specific bosses are there? Sure, I guess it's the best by default if it's the only one. There ARE parts of the questline that are well done, particularly the Black Temple run (minus the idiotic "Hey, let's steal gems!" part); we coulda used more of that.

    Why do you feel the encounter is so well done? Mental exercise: if a device was placed to allow Pit Lord control, which classes would not be able to do the encounter?
    Priest and Hunter quests back in vanilla, Druid flight form quests in BC, Monk quests.

  6. #2166
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    How many other class-specific bosses are there? Sure, I guess it's the best by default if it's the only one. There ARE parts of the questline that are well done, particularly the Black Temple run (minus the idiotic "Hey, let's steal gems!" part); we coulda used more of that.

    Why do you feel the encounter is so well done? Mental exercise: if a device was placed to allow Pit Lord control, which classes would not be able to do the encounter?
    Let's compare for a moment, using something YOU referenced:

    G'nathus [NOT Warlocky] (DPS + CoEx)

    or

    Kanrethad [VERY Warlocky] (DPS + Enslave Demon + Demon Charge + Demon Siphon Life + Demon FF Breath + Shadowfury + Banish + Fear + Teleport + Gates + whatever survivability CD's you used, etc...)

    That's about as short as I could make it. Anything else would just be repeating what has already been said. You have been weighed. You have been measured. And thus, you have been found lacking.

    /cackle

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Priest and Hunter quests back in vanilla, Druid flight form quests in BC, Monk quests.
    Rogue quest. Also, Warlock Dreadsteed quests back in the day.

    I will flay your mind.

  7. #2167
    You didn't answer the question. Which classes wouldn't be able to do Kanrethad?

    None of the monk quests involve a boss. To my knowledge, the dreadsteed, charger, priest and hunter quests no longer exist. I admittedly have no idea what goes into the rogue quest (least favorite class and I essentially skipped Cata).

  8. #2168
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    You didn't answer the question. Which classes wouldn't be able to do Kanrethad?
    That make ZERO difference to the argument at hand, really...I am at a loss of words. I didn't feel it was worthy of attention in my last post, nor do I in this one either. You are reaching here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    None of the monk quests involve a boss. To my knowledge, the dreadsteed, charger, priest and hunter quests no longer exist. I admittedly have no idea what goes into the rogue quest (least favorite class and I essentially skipped Cata).
    And your point?

    Oh, and since we are on the topic of skimming over responses, I will reiterate my main point from the last:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reposed the Greater
    G'nathus [NOT Warlocky] (DPS + CoEx)

    or

    Kanrethad [VERY Warlocky] (DPS + Enslave Demon + Demon Charge + Demon Siphon Life + Demon FF Breath + Shadowfury + Banish + Fear + Teleport + Gates + whatever survivability CD's you used, etc...)

    I will flay your mind.

  9. #2169
    I would have to agree with my wife.

    I will burn your soul.

  10. #2170
    Quote Originally Posted by Reposed View Post
    That make ZERO difference to the argument at hand, really...I am at a loss of words. I didn't feel it was worthy of attention in my last post, nor do I in this one either. You are reaching here.
    I apologize that the relevance isn't clearer. If all that makes the fight warlock special is the Pit Lord, then.. it isn't very warlock special at all, is it? All of the warlock-specific ancillary abilities used in the encounter are used to address situations that other classes have means to handle in a similar if not better fashion. Even if the Pit Lord were just a minor addition to the encounter (instead of being the whole damn fight as it is), pointing to it via Enslave Demon (a spell that's gone ignored since Burning Crusade and I'm willing to bet still won't have a use aside from being a parlor trick going forward) and saying "see? warlock only fight for you! Feel special and enjoy"" is a pretty cheap out. It would be like if they made a priest encounter, and the entire fight hinged on casting Dominate Mind on an NPC with completely foreign abilities. The encounter is lacking as some type of Warlock Merit Badge because of this and I think it's an inappropriate end to this particular questline. If this were, say, the final step in a quest to gain the spell Summon Pit Lord, it'd be perfect, but it's not.

    And your point?
    Do I have to define what "by default" means?

    Oh, and since we are on the topic of skimming over responses, I will reiterate my main point from the last:
    The G'nathus thing was a throwaway, half-joke line. I apologize for not being funny. I can, however, think of a few classes that would have an easier time with Kanrethad than they would with G'nathus.

  11. #2171
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Reposed View Post
    Also, Warlock Dreadsteed quests back in the day.
    That wasn't a solo quest, and it wasn't that difficult imo. You just needed to relight some candles and DPS a few waves Felhunters if I recall correctly. And then a Dreadlord would need to be tanked and spanked until eventually the Dreadsteed would appear, it would need to be DPSed down for it to be enslaved. Then again, compared to most of the boss fights at that time it could be considered complex.

    Anyway, I just killed Kanrethad yesterday. It was much easier in ilvl 486 gear than when I tried in 470.
    I have to say, the few tries that I got him down to 5% and still wiped made success that much sweeter. I haven't gotten this rush from defeating a boss since my first Ragnaros kill. Indeed well done Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    You didn't answer the question. Which classes wouldn't be able to do Kanrethad?
    I don't know of any other classes that can Enslave Demon and Banish. Though I guess you mean an equivalent like Mind Control and Shackle Undead, sure they could've made a similar fight for another class. But how is that a problem?

    And I don't understand your problem with controlling a Pit Lord either. Blizzard has made more boss fights in the past that required you to use a few new learned mechanics. Razorgore in BWL and Razuvious in Naxx come to mind, but I'm sure there are more. Do you also have a problem with those fights?

  12. #2172
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    And I don't understand your problem with controlling a Pit Lord either. Blizzard has made more boss fights in the past that required you to use a few new learned mechanics. Razorgore in BWL and Razuvious in Naxx come to mind, but I'm sure there are more. Do you also have a problem with those fights?
    I don't recall many people hailing Razorgore and/or Razuvious as examples of the bestest raid encounters ever.

    It's not that people enjoy this type of encounter and I don't.
    It's not that people enjoy the thrill of overcoming something and I would rather enjoy the encounter itself. Some people like games like Irritating Maze for that very reason, and that's totally not my thing.

    It's that people are calling this the best warlock fight ever, and to me that's like someone saying water is dry, then branding me a heretic when I protest.

  13. #2173
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    It's that people are calling this the best warlock fight ever, and to me that's like someone saying water is dry, then branding me a heretic when I protest.
    Which event/fight/boss/whatever (that is somewhat similar in case) have you done that you like better? This is the only PvE content that even remotely felt thrilling, everything else, from questing to raiding feels comparatively dull (besides the fact that you can largely be carried through in non-solo content...IMO).

    BTW, did you ever end up getting Fel fire?

    I will burn your soul.

  14. #2174
    I am really happy to see that people with 510/520 ilevel gear are struggling with this fight to get green fire

    Blizzard did a fine job tuning this fight.

  15. #2175
    I actually agree that it's not all that special of a fight.

    Sure it's warlock specific, but in the most superficial way possible. It's like the boss is all "Watch as I use this amazing ability... that you just happen to have the perfect counter to." I didn't find anything about it challenging from a how-to-approach-it perspective. I knew exactly how to counter every ability after seeing it once and maybe reading the tooltip. It was all a matter of hitting my buttons in the right order and cobbling together a few macros. I killed it after about 8 pulls, by which time I had the timing down as to be able to anticipate everything as it came.

    I'm not hating on the fight and I don't have an answer for how to design a better class specific encounter, but I didn't find it to be anything special in the least. The best I can say is that at least it seemed to be more or less bug free and fairly well tuned (granted I didn't bother with it until recently so I don't know how it was when it was first release but I hear it had some issues).

  16. #2176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    Which event/fight/boss/whatever (that is somewhat similar in case) have you done that you like better? This is the only PvE content that even remotely felt thrilling, everything else, from questing to raiding feels comparatively dull (besides the fact that you can largely be carried through in non-solo content...IMO).
    Does that sort of prove his point though. That you only feel this is so great because you feel everything else in the game sucks. Considering that most early victories of the encounter had you using a alchemy created potion it is proof that the encounter wasn't designed very well. I also think it is poor design to make use of the Demonic Gateway threat debuff in order to do the fight.

    Its not really a warlock fight any more then any other dps fight is a warlock fight. The only thing that makes it special is enslaving the pit lord which is really there just to tank and heal us. Line of Sighting and keeping up aggro debuffs isn't really that fun of a fight. There could have been so many different ways of handling the encounter.

    Instead of the a dps check with gimmicks to avoid threat or potions to remove the "soft enrage". They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  17. #2177
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Does that sort of prove his point though. That you only feel this is so great because you feel everything else in the game sucks. Considering that most early victories of the encounter had you using a alchemy created potion it is proof that the encounter wasn't designed very well. I also think it is poor design to make use of the Demonic Gateway threat debuff in order to do the fight.

    Its not really a warlock fight any more then any other dps fight is a warlock fight. The only thing that makes it special is enslaving the pit lord which is really there just to tank and heal us. Line of Sighting and keeping up aggro debuffs isn't really that fun of a fight. There could have been so many different ways of handling the encounter.

    Instead of the a dps check with gimmicks to avoid threat or potions to remove the "soft enrage". They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.
    No, I don't feel it proves his point, personally. In fact, part of what made it enjoyable for me was that there were so many things to use to accomplish the goal, rather than just beating on a colorful target dummy.

    That being said, I do agreed with some of the points you made, (though it doesn't change how I feel this is better PvE content than 95% of the rest). If the encounter had even more of the stuff you mentioned toward the end there, I think that could also stand to be fun as well...things being how they are, I think they did well.

    I will burn your soul.

  18. #2178
    I don't like how I am forced to use a demon/pet that I will never use again, ever, anywhere in World of Warcraft.
    I don't like how even though I am LOS'd I still get hit with stuff, yet cannot return fire. How come they can shoot through walls but I can't?
    I don't like how the quest chain phases stuff such as the Black Temple raid so you can't enter it normally. Even after you finish it. Why would I ever want to fight the boss again after I got my green fire and completed the quest chain.

    I like the concept of the fight. Beat this powerful guy and steal his powers.
    I like the lore behind it.
    I like that they actually made this big quest chain, and class specific at that. It's like the old Benediction/Anathema and Rhok'delar quest chains from Molten Core.
    Last edited by Cernunnos; 2013-08-17 at 07:39 AM.
    My name is Cernunnos, I will love you like no other, I have died a thousand deaths, each time I died I thought of you.

  19. #2179
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Does that sort of prove his point though. That you only feel this is so great because you feel everything else in the game sucks. Considering that most early victories of the encounter had you using a alchemy created potion it is proof that the encounter wasn't designed very well. I also think it is poor design to make use of the Demonic Gateway threat debuff in order to do the fight.
    I'm gonna be blunt. My opinion is that a good chunk of the people praising this fight either lack the creative imagination to envision how this could've been done much better or are just so starved for anything that feels "different" to them that they'll take any crap sandwich handed to them and act like it's filet mignon. Of itself, I don't think it's a -bad- encounter, just inappropriate for the situation and, again, a poor example of a class-tailored fight. If this were a brawlers guild fight or a Razorgore/Razuvious type raid fight you never would've heard a peep out of me.

    Its not really a warlock fight any more then any other dps fight is a warlock fight. The only thing that makes it special is enslaving the pit lord which is really there just to tank and heal us. Line of Sighting and keeping up aggro debuffs isn't really that fun of a fight. There could have been so many different ways of handling the encounter.
    The encounter is 90% Pit Lord, between gambling on when you use the charge for the debuff or saving it for the interrupt, to having to essentially spam the breath because Kanrethad puts up debuffs faster than conventional means clear them to having to play stupid positional tricks with it to down the imps (especially as Aff, since the imp phase seems -purposely- designed to make SoC less effective) and handle the felhunters.

    This is an awesome fight if it was about pet control and would be perfect if the quest was all about learning how to summon a pit lord. As a -warlock- fight, it's nothing special. I can think of no other class that couldn't do it with their own toolsets if you gave them a way to control the pit lord as well. THAT is my whole freakin' point.

    Instead of the a dps check with gimmicks to avoid threat or potions to remove the "soft enrage". They could have made it more like a platformer and required us to do certain tasks. Enslave demons, use eye of kilrogg somehow, fear, banish, use gateways to get to different platforms. Have all of our demons help us like a hunters stampede.
    Different phases could've required the use of different stock demons. A special reaction to fear. The chamber filling with gas. Him (or adds that have to be located) turning invisible. A drain life phase. There are SO many other things that could've been done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunnos View Post
    I don't like how I am forced to use a demon/pet that I will never use again, ever, anywhere in World of Warcraft.
    I really, really don't understand why so few people seem to have a problem with this.
    Last edited by Szarala; 2013-08-17 at 03:36 PM.

  20. #2180
    Deleted
    Because having a pet is part of your class?

    The problem with what you are doing here szarala is that you are trying to maintain the last encounter is bad, 99% of people disagree with you because it does give some challenge to players which you really dont get anywhere else in wow atm (maybe heroic raiding when you are undergeared but that soon ends).

    Ye a lot of the encounter is pet control, its something that i am glad blizzard done because in choosing this class you are opting into 'having a pet' if you suck at pet control for w/e reason then go practice the encounter a bit and it may come to you a bit more naturally.

    But dont come here and tell people that its a badly designed encounter, they made it feel extremely warlock themed and thats the important part, not which class's could do it with there current toolkit, seen as all the class's are practically immortal in solo content now.
    Last edited by mmoc77bb2b62ef; 2013-08-17 at 03:28 PM.

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