Humans are a plague: David Attenborough

[starlord]

Actually... No, it really doesn't have any natural process in place to maintain equilibrium. That's hogwash. The earth goes through all sorts of stages, and has gone through them for the entire duration of its existence, but it is by no means goal-oriented. And extremely far away from 'stable.'

it does. those changes came about because something managed to tip the balance too far.

[Stir]

it does. those changes came about because something managed to tip the balance too far.

No... Those changes came about because, in nature, there is no such thing as 'balance.'
Balance is a human concept derived from what we like.

[Tzalix]

it does. those changes came about because something managed to tip the balance too far.

One of the basic laws of the universe, nothing is ever perfectly balanced.

We are here by chance. Period.

[This name sucks]

it does. those changes came about because something managed to tip the balance too far.

So that's why the Ice Ages happened, right?

[Tzalix]

More rainforest in the area was destroyed by the Mayans than is chopped down today.

Do you happen to have a source on that? Because I'm pretty sure that's bullshit.

[This name sucks]

Made me giggle. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

It's a good point, though, that civilization is not the root of the problem.

Nobody ever said civilization was the root. Its inefficient practices and 3rd world countries that care more about tradition than moving forward with the rest of the world.

[Tzalix]

Nobody ever said civilization was the root. Its inefficient practices and 3rd world countries that care more about tradition than moving forward with the rest of the world.

The fact that we believe ourselves superior to nature contributes as well.

[starlord]

No... Those changes came about because, in nature, there is no such thing as 'balance.'
Balance is a human concept derived from what we like.

the earth has many proccesses that regulate temperature, atmosphere, and weather via positive or negative feedback.
"nature" has ecosystems, which come about in the same way.

they constantly change, but they are constantly striving for "balance".

when something overwhelms the feedback mechanisms is when major shifts take place.

[This name sucks]

the earth has many proccesses that regulate temperature, atmosphere, and weather via positive or negative feedback.
"nature" has ecosystems, which come about in the same way.

they constantly change, but they are constantly striving for "balance".

when something overwhelms the feedback mechanisms is when major shifts take place.

Since you are so insistent on this for some reason; give us one example of this in a real world scenario at any time in history.

[starlord]

So that's why the Ice Ages happened, right?

thats exactly why they happened.

[Puck]

I don't see how anyone could deny this, I mean, our species is classified as a mass extinction event.

[Seijuro]

if we keep hogging resources at the rythm we are now, instead of plague, parasites would be more accurate imo!
we multiply uncontrolled, consume what resources are available and move on in search of a new source.
though i admit we are far from the moving on part;

[This name sucks]

I think you both might be selling our potential short...


Many of the "geniuses" of our time believe in the technological singularity. Terence McKenna, Ray Kurzweil, Michio Kaku, etc.

Something I learned within the past year that has given me a rosier outlook than before was that the timescale of evolution on Earth is actually longer than the average lifespan of most stars. In other words, life on Earth is older than the lifespan of most stars. I don't mean to suggest that the Sun is unique, but it is stable and slow-burning. The development of human consciousness (for lack of better term) and all of our technology very well could be a special thing, indeed.

Special =/= Rare.

And the technological singularity makes a lot more sense than this balance that happens with no cause that you keep suggesting.

[Spraxle]

If you think humans are a plague then it seems like the common sense thing to do would be stop the infection. Mass killings, human furnaces, etc. I mean it's only logical right?

[Jaingo]

We don't have an over population issue. As population grows we run out of resources, but that is a resource issue not a population one.

When you outgrow your resources, it is in fact an overpopulation issue.

[Puck]

If you think humans are a plague then it seems like the common sense thing to do would be stop the infection. Mass killings, human furnaces, etc. I mean it's only logical right?

Maybe if you're a sociopath.

[Kurioxan]

it doesn't think, but it has natural processes in place to maintain equilibrium (or homeostasis).
we disrupt those, much like a disease disrupts the homeostasis of the body.

Universal homeostasis is the antithesis for life, life exists because it PREVENTS homeostasis, real homeostasis btw, not talking about the internal processes inside a living creature body, which simply abuse natural tendency for homeostasis to keep itself alive and facilitate chemical reactions, but even that is not enough and as such we have active transport mechanisms.

I dont see humans as a plague lol, in fact we consume far less than most species of animals, even dogs consume more than we do body weight - eating wise on a daily basis.
We simply conquered natural means to reduce population.

We are a fairly low consumption species compared to many out there.
And we just need to find a way to shed old systems that clearly dont work, we dont have too much population we have awful management

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
Food for thought. If I gave you real food for thought, I might end up in prison.

Always liked the gaia hypothesis :P it has a certain romantic aspect to it. And what is the other food for thought? *curious*

[Dawnrage]

I think you both might be selling our potential short...

I didn't really mean accident in a bad way, but what do you mean when you say potential? What do we have the potential for? Anything we create or do only affects humanity's progression for the most part. Sure there are resources out there that try to help the Earth out, but I see it more as a band aid than an actual solution considering we take way more.

[Kurioxan]

When you outgrow your resources, it is in fact an overpopulation issue.

We havent outgrown our resources... actually the biggest problem we face is not lack of resources at all, it is lack of energy output.
With enough energy resources become meaningless as we will be able to synthetic and transmute elements into other, we can already transmute lead into gold via a reactor, but our energy means arent nearly good enough to make it reliable, a sufficiently advanced technology has no need for natural resources

[starlord]

Since you are so insistent on this for some reason; give us one example of this in a real world scenario at any time in history.

this is basic environmental science 101 here.

The Earth has been subjected to massive changes since the beginning of its existence. As the planet developed, conditions were altered by both internal and external forces; it is even thought that aerobic bacteria introduced oxygen into the primitive atmosphere (Biello, 2009). Without this bacteria the success of the human race would have been seriously compromised. Earth's atmosphere is constantly interacting with biology, as in this example, but also with its different surfaces of land, sea and ice. These relationships cause feedback loops which may have positive or negative effects on the evolution of climate change. The effects of these feedbacks are slowly being discovered, the results of which may be extrapolated and projected into the future to determine the fate of global climate on a much larger scale. Earth's energy budget plays a key role in climate change feedback mechanisms, namely through the reflectivity of various surface types. This concept will be discussed and applied to various Earth surfaces as well as to atmospheric conditions.

Earth’s atmospheric and environmental conditions are constantly changing and interacting. These conditions cause daily local variations of weather, such as cloudiness and rainfall, which may vary on a wide range of time and areal scales. One feedback mechanism alone cannot cause significant climate change on a global scale (Liu et al, 2006; Schneider, 1972; Henderson-Sellers & Henderson-Sellers, 1975; Cess, 1976). Seasonal variations may cause a feedback to be positive in spring and negative in fall, or one mechanism may exhibit positive feedback if another is not present, but negative if another is. For example, in spring the albedo of forested areas decreases as leaves reappear, which serves as a warming mechanism; however in the late summer evapotranspiration cooling effects trump albedo and temperatures begin to drop (Liu et al, 2006). Interaction between feedback mechanisms is just as important, if not more, as the existence of the feedback itself. One effect the existence of individual mechanisms may have on climate change is the rate at which it happens. Foley, et al (1998) believe the addition of one factor to a set of preexisting conditions that are favorable for climate change may act as a tipping point, and a possible cause for sudden shifts in the global environment.

http://academic.emporia.edu/aberjame.../feedback.html

ecosystems:http://www.nwf.org/news-and-magazine...akes-over.aspx

when wolves were removed from Yellowstone it drastically affected the ecological health of the entire park because they were the top predator. This gave elks the opportunity to over feed, which impacted their health and caused them to devour many important young trees. This caused the beavers and birds that relied in the trees to decline as well. This lead to a decrease in meadow habitat formed by beaver ponds, which caused less grazing for even more species.

once wolves were reintroduced, the effects were all reduced because they brought back equilibrium.

Ripple believes that the wolf, the beaver and the aspen all have powerful effects on one another. "If any of these three are missing from the system," he says, "problems could occur, especially if large numbers of ungulates are present." He enumerates the links between the species: Wolves travel along streams and often prey on beaver; beaver need aspen for food and dam construction; wolves control elk browsing patterns, allowing aspen to grow; and beaver dams flood the land, creating more good habitat for aspen.